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Living Car Free Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here.

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Old 03-10-07, 12:36 PM   #1
donrhummy
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This could offer a possibility for better human -powered travel

This guy set the world record for distance traveled under a human-powered land vehicle in 24 hours (650 miles).

http://www.eurekareporter.com/Articl...rticleID=13164

But what's impressive about it is that with their testing, they found that you can go 28 mph in this vehicle with just 100 watts! WOW.

(And just to give a comparison. Using http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm to guage watts required to go a certain speed, if you had 0 mph wind, 0% gradiant, were 0 ft above sea level, weighed 160 lbs, had a 19 lb bike and rode at 100 watts, you'd go about 14 mph)

It uses clip pedals and a regular bike gear system.

http://www.adventuresofgreg.com/HPVMain.html





Last edited by donrhummy; 03-10-07 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 03-10-07, 03:24 PM   #2
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Been there, posted that.
Google Varna Diablo (80mph+ top speed on ~flat ground), WAW velomobile, or just velomobile. Going out on a limb, I'm guessing that a significant portion of this sub forum don't really care about the environment, efficiency, or HPVs in any significant way. Significant enough to do anything anyhoo... They just want to ride a bike and blabber on about how they're saving the world.


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Originally Posted by lyeinyoureye
The advantage of bikes like the WAW and Co. is they minimize fluid friction, allowing for higher speeds at some energy level, say ~45kph@200W for the WAW. Now, if built for modularity, with the ability to be combined into a larger vehicle with the same drag, just proportionally more rolling friction because of the increase in weight, these may allow two to four cyclists to hit speeds in excess of 60-100kmh using ~200W from each. Kinda like drafting except much more effective.
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I just got out of a cage a couple years ago I rather live close to everything instead.
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Old 03-10-07, 06:24 PM   #3
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Bet it costs as much as a car.
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Old 03-10-07, 07:01 PM   #4
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It looks about as comfortable as Alexander DeLarge's theater chair.
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Old 03-10-07, 07:55 PM   #5
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My crude ebike conversion on my old Trek is good for 30 MPH on the flats without any rider input. If I were to install the same motor (clyte 406) on my Baron lowracer I would expect to hit 40+ MPH. Man, I would need a monster chainring for such a setup.
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Old 03-10-07, 09:39 PM   #6
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Velomobiles look like a really good way for more people to make the jump to human powered personal transportation. I'd love to have one, but I'm currently choking on the $10,000 price tag to get one into Canada.

It would be great to be able to commute at an average of 30km/h even in a strong headwind. Right now I average that on no-wind days.

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Old 03-10-07, 10:00 PM   #7
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My cousin bought one, I don't think he rides it much anymore.

http://outyourbackdoor.com/articles2004/hpv.race.html

Last edited by xyz; 03-10-07 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 03-10-07, 10:30 PM   #8
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I agree the pricetag is ridiculous but hopefully they can find a way to lower the cost. If they could build these things and sell them for $3-4K (and make them REALLY safe), I think you'd start to see some people buy them. The keys are making it cheaper and making it safe enough to be hit by a car.
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Old 03-10-07, 11:07 PM   #9
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I had a fully faired trike 20 + years ago. Inherently more stable then the two wheeler. Even with two of the NACA low-drag air vents I got dangrously over heated and dehydrated in the spring going from Las Vegas to LA, and again from LA to Northern California. Last generation, true but it ran 68 pounds trike and shell combined. Add in 30 lb of stuff (it was a tour) and it was a drag up hills. Trying to commute with it in Colorado the clear bubble dome would frost over in seconds in mid winter. Now I use a touring bike for commuting. In 1983 dollars it cost $2,300.
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Old 03-11-07, 10:54 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donrhummy
I agree the pricetag is ridiculous but hopefully they can find a way to lower the cost. If they could build these things and sell them for $3-4K (and make them REALLY safe), I think you'd start to see some people buy them. The keys are making it cheaper and making it safe enough to be hit by a car.
Last year when the the first WAW velos were being brought into the states, my understanding was that one could be had in kit form for about that price. As far as safety, there is a growing body of evidence in Europe--where these HPVs are vastly more prevalent--that survivability is greatly improved vs. a traditional bicycle. One story that was related to me was of a velomobilist who was broadsided at an intersection in the bicycle laneby a motorist running the red light at full speed. The pics were of the carnage to the velo were horrible, but the cyclist escaped with only a few scratches and a mild knock to the head--and I don't remember him saying he was wearing a helmet.

The biggest minus to these vehicles is the lack of ventilation; as I understand it, the amount of airflow through the cockpit is a compromise between occupant comfort and aerodynamics. For this reason the concept of the human/electric velo will probably be the future of these HPVs.
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Old 03-11-07, 11:00 AM   #11
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Don't you think that thing would stink on a hot summer's day?
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Old 03-11-07, 11:15 AM   #12
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Almost as practical as this:
Attached Images
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Old 03-11-07, 11:15 AM   #13
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Unworkable in Texas heat. Maybe OK for Northern Europe.
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Old 03-11-07, 02:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LandLuger
The biggest minus to these vehicles is the lack of ventilation; as I understand it, the amount of airflow through the cockpit is a compromise between occupant comfort and aerodynamics. For this reason the concept of the human/electric velo will probably be the future of these HPVs.
I agree. They're starting to be used in certain areas of Europe from what I've read but getting Americans to use them/trust them as an alternative to a car (not an alternative to the bike) will be a tough battle.
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Old 03-11-07, 04:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donrhummy
I agree. They're starting to be used in certain areas of Europe...
Where? And used for what? By how many Europeans? If more than can be counted on the fingers of one hand I'd be amazed.
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Old 03-11-07, 04:56 PM   #16
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ILTB, if I were subject to your harsh winter I would give a velomobile serious consideration. Anyway, here are some pics from the '06 rally for your consideration.

http://www.cab-bike.com/english/year06.shtml
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Old 03-11-07, 05:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LandLuger
As far as safety, there is a growing body of evidence in Europe--where these HPVs are vastly more prevalent--that survivability is greatly improved vs. a traditional bicycle.
That's what I've heard too. The carbon fiber/Kevlar shell is expensive, but it's designed to hold up to crashes at ~80mph w/o wearing through or cracking to the point that the rider's health is at risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LandLuger
The biggest minus to these vehicles is the lack of ventilation; as I understand it, the amount of airflow through the cockpit is a compromise between occupant comfort and aerodynamics. For this reason the concept of the human/electric velo will probably be the future of these HPVs.
A nice compromise would be a partially faired lowracer like the Windcheetah. There's ventilation, but the Cd is cut in more than half, so average speeds of ~30mph on human power are viable.

Something else I've been wondering about, everyone insists on small NiMH/NiCD/Li-whatever battery packs for conversions, but considering how cheap deep cycle lead acid batteries are, and how little power is needed to average 40mph on a partially faired trike, two in parallel are the way to go imo. ~1500W should be enough to get something like a Windcheetah (homebuilt?) to 40mph, and T-105s can output 75W(12V)=1800W for ~2 hours, less motor losses, ~maybe ~1500W plus whatever the rider wants to input. Should go ~60 miles@40mph@20% capacity. So... maybe ~30,000 mile lifetime, and costs of under a cent per mile. Probably cheaper than food too... They'll add ~120lbs, but at $100/kwh, they're way cheaper than any other battery format in bulk (~$500-800$/kwh) and def way cheaper than the packs that come with the kits, like bionix or whatevs (~$1000-2000/kwh).

Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Where? And used for what? By how many Europeans? If more than can be counted on the fingers of one hand I'd be amazed.
How many fingers you got?
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Old 03-11-07, 06:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LandLuger
ILTB, if I were subject to your harsh winter I would give a velomobile serious consideration. Anyway, here are some pics from the '06 rally for your consideration.

http://www.cab-bike.com/english/year06.shtml
Well I am amazed that there are that many at all. Got any pictures of a unicycle or high wheeler get together? Those vehicles should be just as practical and popular for human powered transportation.
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Old 03-11-07, 06:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyeinyoureye
That's what I've heard too. The carbon fiber/Kevlar shell is expensive, but it's designed to hold up to crashes at ~80mph w/o wearing through or cracking to the point that the rider's health is at risk.



A nice compromise would be a partially faired lowracer like the Windcheetah. There's ventilation, but the Cd is cut in more than half, so average speeds of ~30mph on human power are viable.

Something else I've been wondering about, everyone insists on small NiMH/NiCD/Li-whatever battery packs for conversions, but considering how cheap deep cycle lead acid batteries are, and how little power is needed to average 40mph on a partially faired trike, two in parallel are the way to go imo. ~1500W should be enough to get something like a Windcheetah (homebuilt?) to 40mph, and T-105s can output 75W(12V)=1800W for ~2 hours, less motor losses, ~maybe ~1500W plus whatever the rider wants to input. Should go ~60 miles@40mph@20% capacity. So... maybe ~30,000 mile lifetime, and costs of under a cent per mile. Probably cheaper than food too... They'll add ~120lbs, but at $100/kwh, they're way cheaper than any other battery format in bulk (~$500-800$/kwh) and def way cheaper than the packs that come with the kits, like bionix or whatevs (~$1000-2000/kwh).



How many fingers you got?
I have championed the use of lead acid batteries in HPV applications for some time; however, most riders just can't get past the weight issue. My problem with other battery chemistries is that they have to be closely monitored and treated with kitten gloves to get the advertised life expectancy.
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Old 03-11-07, 06:56 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Well I am amazed that there are that many at all. Got any pictures of a unicycle or high wheeler get together? Those vehicles should be just as practical and popular for human powered transportation.
This is a blog of sorts that was written by the editor of Bentrider in early 2006 I believe.

http://www.cab-bike.com/news3d.shtml

For my purposes the velomobile is attractive for the weather protection, cargo capacity, speed (I'm a flatlander), and safety.
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Old 03-11-07, 08:35 PM   #21
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Where? And used for what? By how many Europeans? If more than can be counted on the fingers of one hand I'd be amazed.
I don't have the info on all of them but the TWIKE is just one of these vehicles. They've sold 750 in Switzerland and Germany alone. So, that's more than one hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWIKE
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Old 03-11-07, 11:01 PM   #22
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Its kind of cute, but completly impractical and ridiculous looking. You think you get harassed by drivers NOW, wait till you roll up to the stop light in that thing.
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Old 03-11-07, 11:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Well I am amazed that there are that many at all. Got any pictures of a unicycle or high wheeler get together? Those vehicles should be just as practical and popular for human powered transportation.
It's tough to haul groceries on a unicycle. Trust me.
So when did practicality start playing a part around the circa-five-digit dollar bicycle mark? I guess, you could say that velomobiles might just be among the most practical in this price range...
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Old 03-12-07, 01:10 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donrhummy
I don't have the info on all of them but the TWIKE is just one of these vehicles. They've sold 750 in Switzerland and Germany alone. So, that's more than one hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWIKE
I love that TWIKE! are they available here in Australia? I can't find any info to suggest that they are.
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Old 03-12-07, 01:28 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LandLuger
I have championed the use of lead acid batteries in HPV applications for some time; however, most riders just can't get past the weight issue. My problem with other battery chemistries is that they have to be closely monitored and treated with kitten gloves to get the advertised life expectancy.
That was a rational and reasonable statement. What are you doing in the car free sub forum?

Quote:
Originally Posted by le brad
Its kind of cute, but completly impractical and ridiculous looking. You think you get harassed by drivers NOW, wait till you roll up to the stop light in that thing.
BikezVCarz has been around for a long time, but bents, velos, and EVs with rider recharge like the Twike are generally treated with respect/room because they're unique.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geebee on bents
I have no issues with cars other than normal cycling problems i.e. doors etc. and they will give a trike much more room and are far less inclined to cut you off...
Even heavily modded (~10-20mpg +) cars get this treatment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by basjoos
I haven't had any problems with rude drivers since I gave my car the full aero treatment. Other drivers are too busy staring at my car to be thinking of behaving badly. My biggest problem is with people slowing down and pacing me in the passing lane while scoping out my car. In the meanwhile, traffic begins to pile up behind them. And the occasional driving who can't drive in a straight line while they are looking at something to their right who starts to drift into my lane while they are staring at my car. Fortunately my car is narrow and I tend to drive in the right portion of my lane.

Last edited by lyeinyoureye; 03-12-07 at 03:01 AM.
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