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    hell's angels h/q e3st ny brunop's Avatar
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    bill mckibben's new book. . .

    anybody read it? i'm readin' it now. it's good. i recommend it. it's called "deep economy".
    ". . .a striped jersey under his jacket; bared calves (outside the bicycle track); cap pushed back; feet in a false position on the pedals; a barking horn, a disorderly appearance, an always-dry tongue, and a definite fondness for wine merchants. . ."

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    In the right lane gerv's Avatar
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    I started reading "Enough" about genetic engineering. Interesting, frightening read. He writes with a good sense of the dramatic, holding things back for later in the book.

    What's "Deep Economy" about?

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    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Thanks for the notification, brunop. I just ordered the book from my library.

    I read Mckibben's piece in the National Geographic last year and started a thread about it. His main point, as I read it, was that many of the changes necessary for creating a more sustainable society will actually improve our standard of living, especially with an enhanced sense of community and solidarity across the world. (He isn't as sentimental as I am, but that was the gist of it.) He used local food production as his main example, but I think carfree cycling is an equally good example.


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    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerv
    I started reading "Enough" about genetic engineering. Interesting, frightening read. He writes with a good sense of the dramatic, holding things back for later in the book.

    What's "Deep Economy" about?
    Here is a review from the LA Times. (Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to perma-link it, and it probably won't be up for long.)


    And here is a preview written by McKibben himself, from his own site:

    In my new book, Deep Economy, I’ve set out to challenge the prevailing view of our economy. For the first time in human history, “more” is no longer synonymous with “better”—indeed, for many of us, they have become almost opposites. I want us to think in new ways about the things we buy, the food we eat, the energy we use, and the money that pays for it all. Our purchases need not be at odds with the things we truly value.

    The time has come to move beyond “growth” as the paramount economic ideal and begin pursuing prosperity in a more local direction, with cities, suburbs, and regions producing more of their own food, generating more of their own energy, and even creating more of their own culture and entertainment. This concept is already blossoming around the world with striking results, from the burgeoning economies of India and China to the more mature societies of Europe and New England. For those who worry about environmental threats, there are solutions to work through the worst of those problems; for those who wonder if there isn’t something more to life than buying, I encourage you to consider your life as an individual and as a member of a larger community.

    Deep Economy offers a realistic, if challenging, scenario for a hopeful future. I believe that the more we nurture the essential humanity of our economy, the more we will recapture our own


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    Senior Member Wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brunop
    anybody read it? i'm readin' it now. it's good. i recommend it. it's called "deep economy".
    I haven't read it, I did order it from the library though, man I love when you can order books online sent to your local branch, unfortunately they have 8 copies on order, and I am 40th in line, so it could be 6 months, before I see it.

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    In the right lane gerv's Avatar
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    Here's an interesting snippet from the review Roody posted

    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Seaman in calendaralive.com
    As part of his inquiry into the economics of food, a crucial subject, McKibben decides to eat only local foods over the course of one Vermont winter. As he chronicles his instructive experiment, he presents harrowing insights into the truth about big agriculture, citing industrialized farming abominations with cruelty to animals at one end of the grim spectrum and wastefulness at the other. Thanks to our "system of consolidation," McKibben observes, "the average bite of food an American eats has traveled fifteen hundred miles before it reaches her lips." Because "a gallon of gasoline weighs about seven pounds, and when you burn it you release about five pounds of carbon into the atmosphere," this isn't the ideal way to go.
    That would be it in a nutshell.

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    Cool! Thanks for bringing this book and this author to my attention. My library has it and my request is in. I also requested his book, "Wandering Home" - seems like it will be fascinating too!

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    hell's angels h/q e3st ny brunop's Avatar
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    another thing about bill mckibben is that he was right on about climate change way early on--one of the first in fact. see his "the end of nature" recently reprinted. he also wrote a book called (i think) "long distance" about his year spent seriously nordic skiing. i really dig his books.

    one thing that bothers me about these sort of books though is that the only people who read 'em are folks like us. it's preachin' to the choir. it'd be really good if say cheney and bush and those idiots would read it. but they won't.

    oh yeah, i think i've mentioned him before and i'm sure some or most of yall have read or heard about him, but james howard kuntsler is also a thinker to be reckoned with. check out his "the long emergency".
    Last edited by brunop; 04-05-07 at 06:46 AM.
    ". . .a striped jersey under his jacket; bared calves (outside the bicycle track); cap pushed back; feet in a false position on the pedals; a barking horn, a disorderly appearance, an always-dry tongue, and a definite fondness for wine merchants. . ."

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    Senior Member Sir Lunch-a-lot's Avatar
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    If this is the same author I think it is, I've read one of his books. I think it was called "Out of the Whirlwind" (Had to read it for Job class (pronounce Jobe, as in the book of the bible)). I was kind of irritated by it, mainly the way he got facts in his arguments wrong (like the idea that Mars is so cold because it has no Carbon Dioxide in his atmosphere... In reality, Mars has mainly carbon dioxide in its atmosphere). I think it could have been better done, and he could have had his facts cited/checked. But once I was able to look past that and see the broader argument, it turned out to be a pretty decent book with an overall good argument. It didn't have that terribly much connection to the book of Job... but I guess I'll find out more about why my Prof had us read that book when we discuss it in class next week.

    I particularly liked his section about the evils of automobiles... anyway.
    Pythagorean Theorum: 24 words. Lord's Prayer: 66 words. 10 Commandments: 179 words. Gettysburg Address: 286 words. Declaration of Independence: 1,300 words. U.S. Government Regulations on the Sale of Cabbage: 26,911 words.

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    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Lunch-a-lot
    If this is the same author I think it is, I've read one of his books. I think it was called "Out of the Whirlwind" (Had to read it for Job class (pronounce Jobe, as in the book of the bible)). I was kind of irritated by it, mainly the way he got facts in his arguments wrong (like the idea that Mars is so cold because it has no Carbon Dioxide in his atmosphere... In reality, Mars has mainly carbon dioxide in its atmosphere). I think it could have been better done, and he could have had his facts cited/checked. But once I was able to look past that and see the broader argument, it turned out to be a pretty decent book with an overall good argument. It didn't have that terribly much connection to the book of Job... but I guess I'll find out more about why my Prof had us read that book when we discuss it in class next week.

    I particularly liked his section about the evils of automobiles... anyway
    .
    You seem to get a lot out of your college classes. I admire that. I kinda wish you were attending a liberal arts college. I think you'd like the broad range of ideas that are discussed in that environment. But evidently you're doing well where you are!


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    In the right lane gerv's Avatar
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    We should recommend this book to others, like some of the folks in this unbelievable thread
    Global Warming????
    (warning: if you have high blood pressure, don't click on it...)

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    hell's angels h/q e3st ny brunop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerv
    We should recommend this book to others, like some of the folks in this unbelievable thread
    Global Warming????
    (warning: if you have high blood pressure, don't click on it...)
    those are the kind of dudes who drive to bike. you see 'em with their whips on top of their SUV's. buncha pansies.
    ". . .a striped jersey under his jacket; bared calves (outside the bicycle track); cap pushed back; feet in a false position on the pedals; a barking horn, a disorderly appearance, an always-dry tongue, and a definite fondness for wine merchants. . ."

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    In the right lane gerv's Avatar
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    I think I shouldn't have walked into it, but it's a bit of any education.

    At least I found out about the "hockey stick" effect in statistics and how novelist Michael Crichton has it all right and how this "science" is all a United Nations plot.

    One thing is that people are fired up about climate change, even if they pick that side of the argument. Mosts of the posts over there tend to die off quickly in a series of one-liners. But this one really brought the full brigade out.

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    hell's angels h/q e3st ny brunop's Avatar
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    even that ****** bush is kinda acknowledgin' that things ain't that great climatewise. whatever. gore's gonna be the next prez, you just watch. . .
    ". . .a striped jersey under his jacket; bared calves (outside the bicycle track); cap pushed back; feet in a false position on the pedals; a barking horn, a disorderly appearance, an always-dry tongue, and a definite fondness for wine merchants. . ."

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    bragi bragi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brunop
    anybody read it? i'm readin' it now. it's good. i recommend it. it's called "deep economy".
    I just started reading it. It's clearly and simply written, and seems wonderfully sane. The part about global warming is pretty scary, though, almost as scary as the watered-down IPCC report that was released the other day.
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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    In the right lane gerv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bragi
    I just started reading it. It's clearly and simply written, and seems wonderfully sane. The part about global warming is pretty scary, though, almost as scary as the watered-down IPCC report that was released the other day.
    As I mentioned above, "Enough" is a pretty good read, too. He certainly has a great way of drawing you into the argument... McKibben is certainly worth a look

  17. #17
    Live Deliberately. davidmcowan's Avatar
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    Why isn't anyone talking about energy alternatives when we talk about peak oil? I agree something is abrewin' but I also believe that our country's desire to drive will surpass lack of oil. Even if only Semi's were equipped with some unique form of power (solar panels?) then they could reduce costs of food, clothing, and such. I see us suffering pretty bad and finding alternatives for our current modes BUT I also expect our ingenuity to get us further than total annihilation.

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    Senior Member Wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcowan
    Why isn't anyone talking about energy alternatives when we talk about peak oil? I agree something is abrewin' but I also believe that our country's desire to drive will surpass lack of oil. Even if only Semi's were equipped with some unique form of power (solar panels?) then they could reduce costs of food, clothing, and such. I see us suffering pretty bad and finding alternatives for our current modes BUT I also expect our ingenuity to get us further than total annihilation.
    Your thinking that the status quo is the only way to go, there are other ways, for example, take our friend Joe, Joe's job as a factory worker was in the city, 50 miles away, he can get there by train, but the fare is 4 hours wages each way, so he quit. He gets on his bike, trailer in tow, and rides around the countryside, he sees it, the sign, says pick 10 keep 1, it's carrots, so he pulls in, the farmer is still looking for people (afterall it's 7am), he spends the day pulling up carrots, he ends up 12 hours later with 60 carrots in his trailer, he notices the potato farmer next door has the same deal for pickers the next day, and goes to spend the day digging up potatos, the next day he spends at a beef farm, nasty work, but it means he has 25kg of beef for the pot.

    The next day his wife is in the kitchen, 60 carrots cut and peeled, 75 potatos cut and peeled, and 25kg of beef, she makes a stew, she has some herbs from the back garden, but almost no spices, a 20g jar of spice is $100, that's a whole days hard labour for Joe, so it just doesn't happen, not when Dill grows like a weed out back, and you can keep most herbs outside or in pots on the windowsill. Last years whisky becomes this years stove fuel, the whiskey is drinkable, well, it was last year when she made it, but she needs the heat, for her stew. The stew goes into some canning jars, sealed up, where no air can get at it, she now has 75 jars of stew, she labels them, and puts them in the pantry. Means meals for the winter, when there isn't a lot of work, and with little work, there is little money or food coming in. So if she can get enough food stocked up and prepared, then they will eat for the winter. Joe might be able to get some work tearing down that old Walmart store, it's dangerous work, imagine 45 guys with wrecking bars and sledge hammers, pounding the crap out of a place, but the pay isn't bad, 12 hours for $100. Sometimes doing this work, he can buy some of the used materials for use at home at a good price.

    Life could get interesting in the next 25 years....

  19. #19
    Dare to be weird!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wogsterca
    ...take our friend Joe, Joe's job as a factory worker was in the city, 50 miles away, he can get there by train, but the fare is 4 hours wages each way, so he quit. He gets on his bike, trailer in tow, and rides around the countryside, he sees it, the sign, says pick 10 keep 1...
    I think that's a plausible future scenario for the outer exurbs and isolated small towns. That's the way it happened 75 years ago. Impressive piece of writing, Wogster.

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    In the right lane gerv's Avatar
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    After waiting two weeks, I managed to get a copy of Deep Economy at the library. I have been reading it for a few days, but only half-way through. There's an excellent, fact-filled chapter called "The Year of Eating Locally", where McKibben reports on his experiment with surviving on only local foods in Vermont. No lettuce after October! But also a guide on hunting down local produce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deep Economy page 65
    The Swedish Food Institute, for instance, discovered that growing and distributing a pound of frozen peas required 10 times as much energy as the peas contained. Say you grow a head of lettuce in Salinas Valley of California and ship it back east: you use 36 times as much calories of fossil fuel as the lettuce actually contains. Ship it to London and you use 127 times as many calories.... Bottled water is, of course, the champion of this equation, since it delivers zero calories. The amount of water traded worldwide has doubled each decade since the 1970s; Californians alone(almost all of whom have access to clean tap water) now throw away 1.2 billion single serving water bottles annually.

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    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerv
    After waiting two weeks, I managed to get a copy of Deep Economy at the library. I have been reading it for a few days, but only half-way through. There's an excellent, fact-filled chapter called "The Year of Eating Locally", where McKibben reports on his experiment with surviving on only local foods in Vermont. No lettuce after October! But also a guide on hunting down local produce.
    Yes! You can have local lettuce after October!

    At least in my area, Michigan State University has a CSA program that provides local produce year round--grown in greenhouses on campus. I guess they don't even use any electricity to heat the greenhouses, but I don't know how they do this.

    There's already 200 families who have bought shares, and 100 more on the waiting list. With this much demand, I have a feeling that the idea will catch on quickly all over the country....


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    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody
    Yes! You can have local lettuce after October!

    At least in my area, Michigan State University has a CSA program that provides local produce year round--grown in greenhouses on campus. I guess they don't even use any electricity to heat the greenhouses, but I don't know how they do this.

    There's already 200 families who have bought shares, and 100 more on the waiting list. With this much demand, I have a feeling that the idea will catch on quickly all over the country....
    Roody,
    Is this a "cow" college? I can think of many ways to heat greenhouses without electricity. They may be tied into the college plant system (can't think of the term for heat supplied from a central plant) they could be using some type of solar sinks, or even water lines laid in piles of composting manure. It amazing how much heat can be generated by rotting manure. My grandfather used a similar system back in the 40's and 50's to provide heat for his dairy barn side rooms. The main barn stayed warm from the cows body heat.

    And +1 on the CSA's catching on. We have one count it one in a 60 mile radius of my home and it is sold out with a massive waiting list. I am toying with the idea of starting my own, but want to make sure I have a solid infrastructure in place prior to selling shares.

    Aaron
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  23. #23
    In the right lane gerv's Avatar
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    Community Supported Agriculture CSAs are described in McKibben's book.

    http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/pubs/csa/csa.shtml
    Community Supported Agriculture consists of a community of individuals who pledge support to a farm operation so that the farmland becomes, either legally or spiritually, the community's farm, with the growers and consumers providing mutual support and sharing the risks and benefits of food production. Typically, members or "share-holders" of the farm or garden pledge in advance to cover the anticipated costs of the farm operation and farmer's salary. In return, they receive shares in the farm's bounty throughout the growing season, as well as satisfaction gained from reconnecting to the land and participating directly in food production. Members also share in the risks of farming, including poor harvests due to unfavorable weather or pests. By direct sales to community members, who have provided the farmer with working capital in advance, growers receive better prices for their crops, gain some financial security, and are relieved of much of the burden of marketing.
    This sounds like it would be a great opportunity for the consumer, getting a box of produce regularly. Occasionally, consumers can also "invest" by doing some of the many chores needed on an organic farm, like weeding. I'm not sure how this works out for the farmer, but I'm guessing it would help with some of the required cash or labor.

    I've never heard of this in my area, but maybe I'll do some research.

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    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wahoonc
    Roody,
    Is this a "cow" college? I can think of many ways to heat greenhouses without electricity. They may be tied into the college plant system (can't think of the term for heat supplied from a central plant) they could be using some type of solar sinks, or even water lines laid in piles of composting manure. It amazing how much heat can be generated by rotting manure. My grandfather used a similar system back in the 40's and 50's to provide heat for his dairy barn side rooms. The main barn stayed warm from the cows body heat.
    Yes definitely a cow college, the first land grant university and a "hothouse" for studying and promoting sustainable community agriculture. I googled and found some more technical info on the year-round CSA that might interest you.



    Quote Originally Posted by wahoonc
    And +1 on the CSA's catching on. We have one count it one in a 60 mile radius of my home and it is sold out with a massive waiting list. I am toying with the idea of starting my own, but want to make sure I have a solid infrastructure in place prior to selling shares.

    Aaron
    Don't forget that the main purpose of a CSA is to raise capital for building a solid infrastructure in the first place. CSA shareholders understand that they're assuming some risk when they buy shares each season.


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    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody

    Don't forget that the main purpose of a CSA is to raise capital for building a solid infrastructure in the first place. CSA shareholders understand that they're assuming some risk when they buy shares each season.
    I know, but given the number of con artists and scams going on I want to be able to show people up front that I am serious, by making the heavy initial investment. In some ways I have by already owning the land. There is also another farmer just around the corner from me that does some produce stand stuff already, and it might be better for us to coordinate. He is an older gentleman and may not even be aware of the CSA's and the existing potential of them. Also we live in a "low wealth" area (nice euphemism for lots of trailers ) however the population base is changing so now might be the time to get in on the ground floor. I am also getting tired of my current job that keeps me on the road so much and a well planned an executed exit may well be tied in with starting up a CSA...

    Thanks for the link to New Farm. It led me to a farm I was not aware of about 15 miles up the road. Not a CSA but Organic veggies right in my back yard! Needless to say I will be shopping there very soon.

    Aaron
    Last edited by wahoonc; 04-22-07 at 09:10 AM.
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