Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27
  1. #1
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,483
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Snow removal sucks for carfree/carlight people. Discrimination?

    Snow removal is almost totally geared for the automobile. Is this a case of discrimination? Is there anything we can do about this? Examples:

    1. I had a cop pull me over because I was walking in the street--a minor residential street--after a snowfall. She said, "You're really supposed to use the sidewalk where one is provided for you." I said, "It isn't really provided because it's so slippery that I feel the street is safer." She said, "Well, I just want you to be safe, and I really think the sidewalk is safer."
    2. A large regional food chain failed all winter to clear the sidewalks in front of their offices and a vacant lot that they own. I went in to complain, left a note requesting that they should "continue to be good corporate citizens" and clear the sidewalks for pedestrians. A PR guy called me back within the hour. He was very respectful and said they'd get on it right away. However, they never did anything.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  2. #2
    jim anchower jamesdenver's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,118
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    When walking I default to the streets if a sidewalk isn't shoveled or plowed.

    I don't worry about cars - if it's that slick out they're going slow anyway and plenty or time to avoid them.

  3. #3
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,483
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jamesdenver View Post
    When walking I default to the streets if a sidewalk isn't shoveled or plowed.

    I don't worry about cars - if it's that slick out they're going slow anyway and plenty or time to avoid them.
    We had two kids die here in Lansing because they were walking in the streets to avoid snow covered sidewalks. I've been almost hit a couple times while walking. Sometimes you can't avoid cars unless you're fit enough to jump over the big snowbanks thrown up by the plows.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    1,522
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    This is a familiar problem to me. I've done snow and ice removal in this level of winter before, and it is brutally hard physical labor. I bought good boots, and can get through most sidewalk conditions safely. I'm thanking my lucky stars that I don't need a walker, wheelchair or anything else to get around tho.

    At least around here, I don't think the intent is discrimination. It's sheer exhaustion. Most sidewalks are reasonably clear. I'm not going to blame a homeowner for an icy sidewalk when it hasn't been above 15F all week, since that means the only way to clear it is chipping ice. I do note that most doctors' offices, hospitals, and clinics have the absolute worst snow and ice removal tho... Makes me feel like they view the weather as a way to make sure they have lots of patients.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    250
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Technically, in Madison, property owners are required to have their sidewalks free of ice and snow and access to crosswalks cleared. It is a $110-150 fine for each offense. Alas, some people still suck.

  6. #6
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Ky. and FL.
    My Bikes
    KHS steel SS
    Posts
    3,945
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I fall to the opposite side of this. I don't think there should be ANY type of snow removal.
    Leave it be, let it melt on it's own. If you drive and have an accident, charge all drivers invol ed with failure to control.
    Salt is so bad for the enviroment, and the road surface, and plowing requires a large investment in equipment and time, and is bad on the road as well.
    So don't clean any of it. Leave it.
    Not too much to say here

  7. #7
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    On the road-USA
    My Bikes
    Giant Excursion, Raleigh Sports, Raleigh R.S.W. Compact, Motobecane? and about 20 more! OMG
    Posts
    16,223
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
    I fall to the opposite side of this. I don't think there should be ANY type of snow removal.
    Leave it be, let it melt on it's own. If you drive and have an accident, charge all drivers invol ed with failure to control.
    Salt is so bad for the enviroment, and the road surface, and plowing requires a large investment in equipment and time, and is bad on the road as well.
    So don't clean any of it. Leave it.
    I vaguely remember just that occurring in Iowa in the winter around my grandparents farm, they just stuck flags on bamboo poles at the curves and you drove on the packed down snow...don't ever remember snow plows.

    Aaron
    Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

    ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.

    "Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
    RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"
    _Nicodemus

    "Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
    Aluminum: barely a hundred
    Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"
    _krazygluon

  8. #8
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,483
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
    I fall to the opposite side of this. I don't think there should be ANY type of snow removal.
    Leave it be, let it melt on it's own. If you drive and have an accident, charge all drivers invol ed with failure to control.
    Salt is so bad for the enviroment, and the road surface, and plowing requires a large investment in equipment and time, and is bad on the road as well.
    So don't clean any of it. Leave it
    .
    This might work in Lansing, where we get less than 100 inches of snow. But it might not work in Traverse City, where I am right now, with its 200 inches a year. And it sure won't work up in Marquette where they sometimes get 300 inches of snow. And snow in TC and Marquette won't "melt on its own" until at least March, more likely April.

    I don't like salt much either. It's bad for bikes, shoes and clothing as well as roads and the environment. They're starting to talk about using sugar beet juice instead of salt to melt ice and snow. Supposedly it's more effective, lasts longer, and is less destructive. It looks pretty sticky, however. I don't know what would happen if it got in your bike's drive train.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  9. #9
    Splicer of Molecules Nickel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    A less cold place
    My Bikes
    Giant
    Posts
    1,720
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Heck with carfree people, I feel bad for people with disabilities. If I can't get onto the bus because there is no path through the hill of snow or get down the sidewalk, how is someone not as able-bodied as myself able to?

  10. #10
    I'm made of earth! becnal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Frankfurt, Germany
    My Bikes
    Raleigh Aspen touring/off-road hybrid, and a Bob Yak trailer. Yak very useful for us car-free types that like to buy lots of beer.
    Posts
    2,012
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I say walk on the slippery sidewalk, then slip, and sue the sidewalk owners for not shoveling and salting their sidewalks.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  11. #11
    jim anchower jamesdenver's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,118
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
    I fall to the opposite side of this. I don't think there should be ANY type of snow removal.
    Leave it be, let it melt on it's own. If you drive and have an accident, charge all drivers invol ed with failure to control.
    Salt is so bad for the enviroment, and the road surface, and plowing requires a large investment in equipment and time, and is bad on the road as well.
    So don't clean any of it. Leave it.
    I agree about the salt. But many cities don't use it anymore. The problem with not plowing a street - as proved by my city's crummy response to a blizzard in '06, is that cars pack down the snow, which refreezes to ice and then creates deep ruts in the street which are horrible for cars and impossible for biking. Think of when you almost get caught in a train track or some other street groove. Not fun.

    These layers of ice take weeks and weeks to melt, especially on side streets where the sun doesn't hit well.

  12. #12
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,483
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jamesdenver View Post
    I agree about the salt. But many cities don't use it anymore. The problem with not plowing a street - as proved by my city's crummy response to a blizzard in '06, is that cars pack down the snow, which refreezes to ice and then creates deep ruts in the street which are horrible for cars and impossible for biking. Think of when you almost get caught in a train track or some other street groove. Not fun.

    These layers of ice take weeks and weeks to melt, especially on side streets where the sun doesn't hit well
    .
    This is a perfect description of my city right now. I haven't ridden on a side street for weeks. Only the main streets are passable for a bike. I don't mind riding on them, but I know a lot of cyclists won't do it. a car can pass on any street. There's that unfairness again!

    Then there's the potholes on those main streets. I've gone beyond the point of worrying if they'll crack my rims. I'm at the point of worrying that the pot holes will swallow up my entire bike--and me with it.

    OTLS: I was just reading something Sheldon Brown said about potholes: "The should call the little ones pot holes, the bigger ones coke holes, and the really huge ones smack holes."



    "Think Outside the Cage"

  13. #13
    Senior Member roseskunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    631
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    i live in texas now. remind me again, what is this stuff you call "snow"?

  14. #14
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,483
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by roseskunk View Post
    i live in texas now. remind me again, what is this stuff you call "snow"?
    It's amazingly beautiful white crystals that fall out of the sky. It falls where you want it, it falls where you don't want it, and therein lies a problem. We northerners spend half the year trying to move it away from where we don't want it. And sometimes we spend almost as much time arguing about where we do want it and how to get it there.

    Anyway, it gives us something to talk about much of the time. I hope it's entertaining for y'all southerners to eavesdrop on our arguments sometimes. What do you guys do with all the free time you have from not dealing with snow?


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  15. #15
    Senior Member donrhummy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3,484
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Snow removal is almost totally geared for the automobile. Is this a case of discrimination? Is there anything we can do about this? Examples:

    1. I had a cop pull me over because I was walking in the street--a minor residential street--after a snowfall. She said, "You're really supposed to use the sidewalk where one is provided for you." I said, "It isn't really provided because it's so slippery that I feel the street is safer." She said, "Well, I just want you to be safe, and I really think the sidewalk is safer."
    2. A large regional food chain failed all winter to clear the sidewalks in front of their offices and a vacant lot that they own. I went in to complain, left a note requesting that they should "continue to be good corporate citizens" and clear the sidewalks for pedestrians. A PR guy called me back within the hour. He was very respectful and said they'd get on it right away. However, they never did anything.

    Not sure if this is the case in every state, but in many the law says landowners must clear the sidewalk in front of their property of snow.

  16. #16
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,483
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by donrhummy View Post
    Not sure if this is the case in every state, but in many the law says landowners must clear the sidewalk in front of their property of snow.
    Here it goes by the city. We have an ordinance requiring sidewalk shoveling within 24 hours of a storm. But it's only a $100 fine, which, for the company I mentioned, is probably less than the cost of removing the snow. Besides, the law isn't really enforced. The little girl who got killed by a car last year was walking by city property, so they don't even obey the law they're supposed to be upholding.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    959
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Columbus does this for side streets. Well, more precisely, they don't plow the side streets in the poor neighborhoods. They just let nature take its course. It works out quit nicely actually, people drive slower, the street looks alot nicer with white snow and ice rather than brown slush, and usually it melts within a week or two on its own. Saves the city a bundle I suspect, although I wish they'd apply the concept a little more evenly across the city.

    Sidewalks are the province of the property owner. I have an elderly neighbor who walks in front of my house to the bus stop so i make it a point to have my sidewalk in prestine condition before I leave for work in the morning. I wish more of my neighbors felt the same way.

    The city plows the MUP which is the awesomest thing ever. It is typically cleared before some of the main streets are.



    Quote Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
    I fall to the opposite side of this. I don't think there should be ANY type of snow removal.
    Leave it be, let it melt on it's own. If you drive and have an accident, charge all drivers invol ed with failure to control.
    Salt is so bad for the enviroment, and the road surface, and plowing requires a large investment in equipment and time, and is bad on the road as well.
    So don't clean any of it. Leave it.

  18. #18
    Spelling Snob Hobartlemagne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    My Bikes
    Panasonic DX4000, Bianchi Pista
    Posts
    2,863
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    What do you guys do with all the free time you have from not dealing with snow?
    We have uncomfortable rides in 30 to 40 degree rain.

    The first rule of flats is You don't talk about flats!

  19. #19
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,483
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobartlemagne View Post
    We have uncomfortable rides in 30 to 40 degree rain.
    Fun! We only get to do that in the months of March, April, May, October and November.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  20. #20
    Thread Killer evblazer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Marfan Syndrome-Clyde-DFW, TX
    My Bikes
    Fuji Touring Xtracycle, Merlin Road, Bacchetta Giro 26 (Sold), Challenge Hurricane, Cruzbike Sofrider
    Posts
    1,844
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    It's amazingly beautiful white crystals that fall out of the sky. It falls where you want it, it falls where you don't want it, and therein lies a problem. We northerners spend half the year trying to move it away from where we don't want it. And sometimes we spend almost as much time arguing about where we do want it and how to get it there.

    Anyway, it gives us something to talk about much of the time. I hope it's entertaining for y'all southerners to eavesdrop on our arguments sometimes. What do you guys do with all the free time you have from not dealing with snow?
    It just makes me homesick. I don't mind a few train service disruptions, Metro north wouldn't/couldn't run most of it's fleet in the snow, or having to shovel when I woke up. If it was bad enough my old boss just had everyone stay home as it wasn't worth it. if I had a job I had to get to it might not have been all rosy.
    Unfortunately for me what I do with my free time not dealing with the snow is mostly make up for the sleep I missed due to house shaking thunderstorms and tornado sirens oh wait uhm "Severe Weather Alarms" is what they call them. Three twisters within a few miles since moving here is a little too much for this transplant Bailing out the water from flood rains and cleaning up after all the high winds is always fun too

  21. #21
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    On the road-USA
    My Bikes
    Giant Excursion, Raleigh Sports, Raleigh R.S.W. Compact, Motobecane? and about 20 more! OMG
    Posts
    16,223
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bike2math View Post
    Columbus does this for side streets. Well, more precisely, they don't plow the side streets in the poor neighborhoods. They just let nature take its course. It works out quit nicely actually, people drive slower, the street looks alot nicer with white snow and ice rather than brown slush, and usually it melts within a week or two on its own. Saves the city a bundle I suspect, although I wish they'd apply the concept a little more evenly across the city.

    Sidewalks are the province of the property owner. I have an elderly neighbor who walks in front of my house to the bus stop so i make it a point to have my sidewalk in prestine condition before I leave for work in the morning. I wish more of my neighbors felt the same way.

    The city plows the MUP which is the awesomest thing ever. It is typically cleared before some of the main streets are.
    I don't who's fault that is...when I was growing up we always looked out for our neighbors, especially the elderly and the single parent families, seems to be a thing of the past. Now, no class scum prey on the elderly. I spent many a cold morning shoveling driveways for some of our elderly neighbors at the direction of my parents and never was paid or expected to be paid for it (at least monetary compensation) but received many wonderful gifts over the years.

    Aaron
    Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

    ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.

    "Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
    RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"
    _Nicodemus

    "Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
    Aluminum: barely a hundred
    Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"
    _krazygluon

  22. #22
    Biscuit Boy Cosmoline's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Speeenard 'laska
    Posts
    1,358
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Good points about negligent business owners, but I have to say the streets you describe CAN BE BIKED. You just have to have the proper equipment. My winter bike rides over ice and deep ruts with no problems. Only deep snow or slush will stop it. Get a good mountain bike or cruiser and equip it with nokian studs and you should be good to go.
    ''On a bicycle you're not insulated. You're in contact with the landscape and all manner of people you'd never meet if you were in a car. A fat man on a bicycle is nobody's enemy.''

    Tom Vernon.

  23. #23
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,483
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmoline View Post
    Good points about negligent business owners, but I have to say the streets you describe CAN BE BIKED. You just have to have the proper equipment. My winter bike rides over ice and deep ruts with no problems. Only deep snow or slush will stop it. Get a good mountain bike or cruiser and equip it with nokian studs and you should be good to go.
    I haven't had much trouble biking in the winter. But walking is for the fit and strong only. The bus is difficult for everybody because the stops are all plowed in. You know how you usually have to step UP to get on a bus? Well, in the winter you sometimes step DOWN! And when it starts to melt....oh boy!

    The point is, all the streets are plowed for the CARS, along with parking lots. But almost nothing is done to help the PEOPLE. It always seems like we cater to our machines.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  24. #24
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Ky. and FL.
    My Bikes
    KHS steel SS
    Posts
    3,945
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    As far as sidewalk cleaning here. We are recommended NOT to clean them at all. If we clean them and there is a fall, we are liable because we did not do a good job. If we don't clean them, it is walk at your own risk.

    As far as the snow being packed on the streets until April if you don't plow, so what, Don't drive, don't bike. Walk. Snowmobile. Sled dogs, I can see a whole new industry breeding, boarding, selling sled dogs,and building sleds. Sounds like more jobs to me.
    Not too much to say here

  25. #25
    Senior Member Newspaperguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    2,206
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by maddyfish View Post
    I fall to the opposite side of this. I don't think there should be ANY type of snow removal.
    Leave it be, let it melt on it's own. If you drive and have an accident, charge all drivers invol ed with failure to control.
    Salt is so bad for the enviroment, and the road surface, and plowing requires a large investment in equipment and time, and is bad on the road as well.
    So don't clean any of it. Leave it.
    This solution might work if you're in an area where the snow melts in a couple of days on its own, but it does not work if you're in an area that gets long and cold winters with a lot of snow. There are places where the snow can come in October and last until May. In those areas, streets are ploughed regularly and a sand mixture not salt is used. The goal is to provide traction, not to melt the snow. In spring, once the snow has melted, the leftover sand is swept up and hauled away.
    Life is good.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •