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  1. #151
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by Platy View Post
    As gas prices go ever higher, I think people are more likely to see car free living as a rational response to economic conditions. Those who go car free this summer probably won't be treated as if they've suddenly lost their minds.
    Last year, I was considered insane by some folks in my department because I wanted to ride to work. This year, I'm getting a bit more respect as gas prices go up. Many of my coworkers have 30-50 mile drives to work.

  2. #152
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Historian View Post
    Straying away from your own words noted. Thanks for playing.

    And yes, it IS uncool to gloat, especially since your scenario of lowered production (and, unmentioned but present, higher transportation costs) leading to lower prices for the consumer of bike parts seems highly unlikely to come to pass.
    Sarcastic sniping noted. Boy it stings!

    You misunderstand. Again. My "scenario" was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, and it had nothing to do with lowered production.

    I think you probably failed to notice the winky emoticon in my response to Machka, so you went and got all serious on me. Sorry about the misunderstanding! My joke--not very funny to start with--is totally lame now that I've screwed up two or three attempts to explain it.


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  3. #153
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    NYTimes had a good issue of their magazine this weekend which was all about carbon footprints. One article in particular talked about how of driving is being subsidized by people who don't drive and that the cost of gas and taxes on cars doesn't come close to paying for all the upkeep regarding cars (such as car accidents cost about 220$ billion a year.) The article recommended an additional 2$ gas tax per gallon and pay-as-you-go car insurance.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/ma...l?ref=magazine

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by bragi View Post
    Just because you can spend $20/day on food doesn't mean that you should. I'm inspired to do a bit better. I don't think I can get to $20/week, though; I've grown accustomed to luxuries like coffee and good bread. If I can get to $10/day ($300/mo), I'll be relatively happy.
    I HATE prepackaged bread, but my GF & I have become a little obsessed with cutting the grocery bill as much as possible - I solved the bread problem by buying a bread machine for $2 at the local Goodwill store (they had tons of 'em). I downloaded the manuals and recipe books online. Better quality bread than the "artisan" bread at the market - for about .25 cents a loaf (and the loaves are almost twice as big as store-bought ones)...

  5. #155
    Humvee of bikes =Worksman Nightshade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proethele View Post
    I HATE prepackaged bread, but my GF & I have become a little obsessed with cutting the grocery bill as much as possible - I solved the bread problem by buying a bread machine for $2 at the local Goodwill store (they had tons of 'em). I downloaded the manuals and recipe books online. Better quality bread than the "artisan" bread at the market - for about .25 cents a loaf (and the loaves are almost twice as big as store-bought ones)...
    But, tongue firmly in cheek, requires you to do the work to make your bread! Most people
    just don't have time for that......now do they?
    My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
    I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.

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    Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
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  6. #156
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tightwad View Post
    But, tongue firmly in cheek, requires you to do the work to make your bread! Most people
    just don't have time for that......now do they?
    Plus the energy used by the bread machine and the water used cleaning it and the other tools used to measure ingredients.

    Al

  7. #157
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    CNN had a nice little report this morning about people getting squeezed by high gas prices. They had some tips on how to ease the pain. Their list included an e-mail service to send you the list of cheapest gas in your area each day. A text message service that does the same thing. Buying your gas at a wholesaler like Sam's Club, etc. They failed to mention driving less, car pooling, taking the bus, riding your bike, living in an area where you can walk to work . . .

    Grr . . .

  8. #158
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proethele View Post
    I HATE prepackaged bread, but my GF & I have become a little obsessed with cutting the grocery bill as much as possible - I solved the bread problem by buying a bread machine for $2 at the local Goodwill store (they had tons of 'em). I downloaded the manuals and recipe books online. Better quality bread than the "artisan" bread at the market - for about .25 cents a loaf (and the loaves are almost twice as big as store-bought ones)...
    My father has been using a bread machine to make his own bread for years. It takes him a few minutes to mix the ingredients and put it in the machine, and not that long to wash up after ... and he produces about one loaf of bread each week. He has created his own variation on a standard recipe, and will use extra bits and pieces for some variety (like throwing in a little flax seed, or ground up sunflower seeds, or I think he used the last bit of a whole grain porridge in there once, etc.). I believe his recipe also takes slightly sour milk ... so when the milk is starting to going bad, rather than dumping it, he uses it in the bread.

  9. #159
    Senior Member murphstahoe's Avatar
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    I spend the weekends in Sonoma County, and commute from Healdsburg to Sunnyvale where I work on Monday AM. I've been doing this for about 5 months, almost every Monday AM.

    First leg - SCT Bus #60 Healdsburg to Santa Rosa, 5:10 AM. For 4 months this bus always had the exact same 4 people on it, a toothless biker guy, old Asian nurse lady, me, and Sam The Driver. The last 2 weeks we have 2 new riders.

    Second Leg - Golden Gate Transit 72 from Santa Rosa to San Francisco, 5:48 AM. This bus is pretty nice, nice seats, lights, and an under the bus bike rack that slides out from under the bus and locks. $8.40 one way, $6.75 if you have Translink, which is a good deal given 60 miles of driving and a $5 Bridge toll. 5 months ago, when I first boarded this bus, I thought it was pretty cool that a BUS was 50% full mostly with SF Financial district workers, people working on laptops and the like. This morning there were exactly THREE seats empty. One problem - there is only room for 2 bikes, this morning for the first time there was a second biker, my commute could be in jeopardy of a bumping situation.

    Third Leg - Caltrain from SF to Sunnyvale, 7:44 AM Caltrain ridership is at an alltime record as of February and continues to climb. Bike car full (32) per usual. I met my buddy and we racked our bikes. Back in the day we could find an empty 2 seat to sit together, or 2 singles near each other, in the bike car. No dice. Go to the next car. Packed. Back to the bike car to share 2 seaters across the aisle from each other with other riders.

    I really think that it's ON. The GG Transit bus being that full was shocking. It is not a bus where standing room really makes any sense - what happens when the buses start being full? The problem is that the capacity problem is appearing very quickly, the solutions are very slow. Even if the transit agencies had extra rolling stock their bueracracy is brutal. But if they are short on buses or trains, the turnaround time to add more rolling stock is very long and demand could be very high.

    There is something in here that addresses The Historian and Machka's retort to Roody. People will lose jobs but new jobs will be created. Someone has to make buses, trains, solar panels, windmills, etc... And those that adapt best will be ahead of the game. Roody is right. Of course Roody is smart enough to adapt, be car free and thus be ahead of his competition who does not use gasoline. But Roody is also really dumb in that he lives in Lansing Michigan where he has to figure out how to heat his abode and he is farther away from year round food supplies - the garden in Healdsburg can be rotated into crops that will feed me seasonally. Not to say that Michigan does not produce an abundance in season.

    Murph - "hmm... those peaches are starting to come in already... yumm..."

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYU SOM View Post
    CNN had a nice little report this morning about people getting squeezed by high gas prices. They had some tips on how to ease the pain. Their list included an e-mail service to send you the list of cheapest gas in your area each day. A text message service that does the same thing. Buying your gas at a wholesaler like Sam's Club, etc. They failed to mention driving less, car pooling, taking the bus, riding your bike, living in an area where you can walk to work . . .

    Grr . . .
    This is pretty standard. I think we are still a long ways from gas prices high enough that people think of cutting back as a strategy for saving money.

    Don't parents raise stubborn/cheap SOB's anymore? My dad's constant drumming about saving a penny here and there gives you a dollar after a hundred here and theres, lead me to conclude at $2/ga. that I didn't want to buy more gas just for commuting.

    My family in the Northeast is getting clobbered by heating oil prices, they are all making arrangements to move further south in the next few years. But again they were all raised with this great depression era "It causes me physical pain to open my wallet" attitude that seems to be missing from many americans. Do you think a large population shift (north to south, and subburban to urban ) is in the future?

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by bike2math View Post
    Do you think a large population shift (north to south, and subburban to urban ) is in the future?
    North to south has been going on for some time. Some of the fastest-growing regions of the country are in the South. However, suburban to urban will be hard, what with all the new suburban developments going on. However, we are seeing more and more 'urban infill' development as well.

  12. #162
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    This may be the first time in my lifetime where a gallon of gas costs more than a gallon of milk.
    Bread? forget about it, it's expensive (to me), even the preservative ladened stuff.
    sure you can go to the outlets that sell stuff that's close to the expiration date but
    even those stores are leaving being replaced by new condos.

  13. #163
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    Moving south may ameliorate the cost of heating, but it creates a new problem, access to water. Most of the areas in the north east get plenty of rain/snow melt and the great lakes are right there for Michigan and NY, etc. This is not the case with say, Atlanta and mass migration is only going to make the water supply problems worse.

  14. #164
    Senior Member
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    One note about cheap good bread. I make this recipe all the time (less in summer). The technique got a lot of publicity when it first came out -for good reason.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13Ah9ES2yTU

    Edit: As to $4 being enough? I don't know what the threshold is from a macroeconomic perspective, but I'd think it's a lot higher just because of necessity. The original article (4-8-08) says $4 this summer -now I'm hearing $5 this summer.
    Last edited by hotwheels; 04-21-08 at 03:27 PM. Reason: Uncompleted thoughts
    I love to commute and ride. Keeping a positive focus.

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  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    My father has been using a bread machine to make his own bread for years. It takes him a few minutes to mix the ingredients and put it in the machine, and not that long to wash up after ... and he produces about one loaf of bread each week. He has created his own variation on a standard recipe, and will use extra bits and pieces for some variety (like throwing in a little flax seed, or ground up sunflower seeds, or I think he used the last bit of a whole grain porridge in there once, etc.). I believe his recipe also takes slightly sour milk ... so when the milk is starting to going bad, rather than dumping it, he uses it in the bread.
    Sounds real close to what we do - We use half white / half wheat flour (if you use all wheat, it will be MUCH heartier than store-bought wheat bread) and we'll mix in flax seed & wheat berries. I have a friend who owns a bakery and will sell me 50-lb. sacks of flour and 2-lb. jars or yeast at wholesale. Once we got the recipe down, it only takes me about 5 minutes to throw the ingredients in the machine and hit the "start" button.

    noisebeam, I really don't think the energy used by the machine & washing the utensils is more than the energy used by the machines at the commercial bakery, the factory that makes the plastic bags, the delivery truck that takes the loaf of bread to the store, and the gas used by the consumer who drives to and from the store to buy the bread, then throws away the plastic bag without recycling it...

  16. #166
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proethele View Post
    noisebeam, I really don't think the energy used by the machine & washing the utensils is more than the energy used by the machines at the commercial bakery, the factory that makes the plastic bags, the delivery truck that takes the loaf of bread to the store, and the gas used by the consumer who drives to and from the store to buy the bread, then throws away the plastic bag without recycling it...
    The only (minor) note was that those costs are already built into the store bought bread cost.

    I make all my bread or dough in a machine too.

    Al

  17. #167
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gz_ View Post
    NYTimes had a good issue of their magazine this weekend which was all about carbon footprints. One article in particular talked about how of driving is being subsidized by people who don't drive and that the cost of gas and taxes on cars doesn't come close to paying for all the upkeep regarding cars (such as car accidents cost about 220$ billion a year.) The article recommended an additional 2$ gas tax per gallon and pay-as-you-go car insurance.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/ma...l?ref=magazine

    Great link, gz! The article is by the Freakonomics guy. Very interesting.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  18. #168
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bike2math View Post
    Do you think a large population shift (north to south, and subburban to urban ) is in the future?
    Suburbs to city, yes. North to south, no. It will be the other way around. Climate models show increased heat and drought in the southern US, but longer growing season and more rain for the northern tier of states.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYU SOM
    Moving south may ameliorate the cost of heating, but it creates a new problem, access to water. Most of the areas in the north east get plenty of rain/snow melt and the great lakes are right there for Michigan and NY, etc. This is not the case with say, Atlanta and mass migration is only going to make the water supply problems worse.
    They're already trying to steal our Great Lakes water (20 % of the entire world supply). We will fight to keep it here.


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  19. #169
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murphstahoe View Post
    But Roody is also really dumb in that he lives in Lansing Michigan where he has to figure out how to heat his abode and he is farther away from year round food supplies - the garden in Healdsburg can be rotated into crops that will feed me seasonally. Not to say that Michigan does not produce an abundance in season.

    Murph - "hmm... those peaches are starting to come in already... yumm..."
    True enough, but our growing season is already two weeks longer due to global warming, and like I said we have lots of water. Michigan and other states in the region used to be big food producers until government subsidies got the the farmers to plow up gardens and orchards to plant corn and soybeans. Our local food movement is coming on strong and I get a major portion of my supplies from local growers.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    The only (minor) note was that those costs are already built into the store bought bread cost.
    Ah, yes - very true.

  21. #171
    Senior Member Lamplight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYU SOM View Post
    Moving south may ameliorate the cost of heating
    The problem is, it's unbelievably hot here in the summer. Most family's a/c units are running nearly non-stop, even at night. While it seems to be cheaper than heat, it's still not cheap. Plus we still get enough cold weather in the winter to have a fairly high bill then as well. What I can't figure out is, why do people heat their houses to 80 degrees in the winter and cool them to 65 degrees in the summer? If 80 is comfortable in the winter, why isn't it comfortable in the summer?

  22. #172
    In the right lane gerv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    My father has been using a bread machine to make his own bread for years. It takes him a few minutes to mix the ingredients and put it in the machine, and not that long to wash up after ... and he produces about one loaf of bread each week. He has created his own variation on a standard recipe, and will use extra bits and pieces for some variety (like throwing in a little flax seed, or ground up sunflower seeds, or I think he used the last bit of a whole grain porridge in there once, etc.). I believe his recipe also takes slightly sour milk ... so when the milk is starting to going bad, rather than dumping it, he uses it in the bread.
    I've been bread-making for many years. However, I have never used a bread machine. I'm still confused as to why you need one... if you have an oven! [unless there is some cost savings with it...but I suspect it really more like a Croc-pot in terms of cost to run...]

    Usually, I make enough enough for two pizzas and two loaves of bread. I normally do this every weekend and we all seem to enjoy the result.

    I think you are all right about the cost of bread. Good bread costs about $4.50 now for a 1.5 pound loaf. I can make bread for quite a bit less than that. [Although it might be $8 a loaf if you include the electricity need to bake it ]

  23. #173
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    True enough, but our growing season is already two weeks longer due to global warming

    Ours isn't!! Send your extra 2 weeks up this way!! On Thursday the farmers were in the fields getting ready to seed. On Friday the blizzard blew through the entire province of Alberta and hasn't let up since. We've got a foot of snow out there ... at the end of April. And BC had it's coldest spring on record, complete with some of this snow. I have a really, really tough time believing in global warming ... I can believe climate change because the climate is cyclic and changes all the time, but when I'm sitting here staring at a scene from the middle of January, at the end of April .......

  24. #174
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    Count me in on the confused about bread machines. They don't produce bread that's better than what I can do by hand and with the oven. I don't make bread more often than once a week tho... a 1lb loaf is about as much as we can manage to eat in a week.

  25. #175
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torrilin View Post
    Count me in on the confused about bread machines. They don't produce bread that's better than what I can do by hand and with the oven. I don't make bread more often than once a week tho... a 1lb loaf is about as much as we can manage to eat in a week.
    They're just quick ... maybe 5 minute to mix the ingredients, and you're done.

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