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Living Car Free Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here.

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Old 04-10-08, 08:56 AM   #1
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America's oil depenence cure...Rationing!

IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.

Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
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Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
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Old 04-10-08, 09:49 AM   #2
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It will happen. When cops, fire-fighters, farmers, truckers, railroads and the Armed Forces can't get fuel, you can bet there will be emergency rationing put into place, and the soccer moms and dads in Tahoes are going to bear the greatest burden, because they are the greatest wasters.
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Old 04-10-08, 10:42 AM   #3
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F' in soccer moms! *shakes fist*
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Old 04-10-08, 10:48 AM   #4
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It will happen. When cops, fire-fighters, farmers, truckers, railroads and the Armed Forces can't get fuel, you can bet there will be emergency rationing put into place, and the soccer moms and dads in Tahoes are going to bear the greatest burden, because they are the greatest wasters.
they are? Here I always thought it was the trucking industry. Or the airline industry, or the delivery industry (fed ex/ups).

Rationing will just create a black market for fuel.

Maybe we should just outlaw soccer. Then the soccer moms and dads won't have anywhere to drive.
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Old 04-10-08, 11:01 AM   #5
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IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.

Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
And maybe we can cure the obesity problem by rationing food? Or reduce cancer deaths by rationing tobacco? Or alcoholism by rationing beer, wine, and liquor?

How easy it is to restrict other people's behavior by simply passing laws! Oops! Those people might decide to vote.
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Old 04-10-08, 11:42 AM   #6
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In my experience people that call for reforms/high fuel effiecencies/restrictions/etc are usually persons who already have enough disposable income to offset/allow themselves to purchase more efficient means of using fuel/alternative energies.

I've even heard upper middle class persons (unfortunently it was an aunt and uncle) who have more than enough disposable income say that it would just be great if they just raised gas prices artifically to $5 per gallon, then less people will drive. Mind you they have an honda insight and hybrid civic.

The unfortunent side of forced sanctions/regulations/rationing is the effect that it has on the lower socio-economic groups.

Soccer mom doesn't really feel a pinch when gas goes up $.30 per gallon in a day regardless if she is driving her Hummer or Toyota Prius.

Single Mother that is a waitress, she will definently feel the pinch when she is trying to fill up her 5yr old minivan or cavalier. Or really anyone else such as the elderly or persons on fixed incomes.

Tightwad, the way you speak seems to show that you have a living situation that allows you to commute without fuel, majority of the residents of this country do not have that same luxury as you.
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Old 04-10-08, 12:01 PM   #7
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In my experience people that call for reforms/high fuel effiecencies/restrictions/etc are usually persons who already have enough disposable income to offset/allow themselves to purchase more efficient means of using fuel/alternative energies.

I've even heard upper middle class persons (unfortunently it was an aunt and uncle) who have more than enough disposable income say that it would just be great if they just raised gas prices artifically to $5 per gallon, then less people will drive. Mind you they have an honda insight and hybrid civic.

The unfortunent side of forced sanctions/regulations/rationing is the effect that it has on the lower socio-economic groups.

Soccer mom doesn't really feel a pinch when gas goes up $.30 per gallon in a day regardless if she is driving her Hummer or Toyota Prius.

Single Mother that is a waitress, she will definently feel the pinch when she is trying to fill up her 5yr old minivan or cavalier. Or really anyone else such as the elderly or persons on fixed incomes.

Tightwad, the way you speak seems to show that you have a living situation that allows you to commute without fuel, majority of the residents of this country do not have that same luxury as you.
people generally don't give a crap if the law doesn't affect them personally.

Government illegally spying on its citizens? Who cares it doesn't affect me!

Ban all trans fats in the city? Great!!! I'm already skinny and I never eat out. Who cares???!!!

Rationing? Great idea!!! I'm carbon positive! screw everyone else!

Bike tax? Whoa now!!! This is an outrage!!! I already pay my taxes!!! Who thought of this stupid idea??? I want someone's head over this!!! Critical mass ahoy!!!
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Old 04-10-08, 12:21 PM   #8
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And maybe we can cure the obesity problem by rationing food? Or reduce cancer deaths by rationing tobacco? Or alcoholism by rationing beer, wine, and liquor?

How easy it is to restrict other people's behavior by simply passing laws! Oops! Those people might decide to vote.
Well, in a very real way (again WWII) food WAS rationed forcing more people to plant
Victory Gardens and raise rabbits, ducks & chickens to supplement the food they was
being rationed. Also many grew their own, or traded, tobacco and brewed their own booze.

So what' yer point here?
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Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
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Old 04-10-08, 12:26 PM   #9
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they are? Here I always thought it was the trucking industry. Or the airline industry, or the delivery industry (fed ex/ups).

Rationing will just create a black market for fuel.

Maybe we should just outlaw soccer. Then the soccer moms and dads won't have anywhere to drive.
Would that be the trucking industry that includes companies like UPS who are putting CNG vehicles on the road to reduce the use of oil, or other trucking companies that are updating regulators in their vehicles to cap their speeds? I can't say I know any parents driving SUVs that have regulators to cap speeds in their vehicles to maximize fuel efficiency. Personally I think the trucking industry is getting hit very hard by the fuel costs and they are doing what they can to conserve. Just go to your local gas station and compare prices of diesel to unleaded. Much higher.
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Old 04-10-08, 12:26 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Metricoclock View Post

Tightwad, the way you speak seems to show that you have a living situation that allows you to commute without fuel, majority of the residents of this country do not have that same luxury as you.
I don't commute any more since I've retired. However, I did ,ride when I could, limit my
fuel consumption to only work use. As a child of the 1950's I learned the hard way to
make it last, use it up, or do without...and not whine about.

All to many people today need to learn that lesson (excluding the poor 'cause they already know)
today.
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Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
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Old 04-10-08, 12:31 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Tightwad View Post
IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.

Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
LOL. I remember the last time we tried fuel rationing.



You'll have to handle it a whole lot better than last time, and give people a good justification or they'll be getting very self-righteous and angry.
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Old 04-10-08, 12:39 PM   #12
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It's pretty clear that gas supplies are trending down and demand is rising faster than ever. At some point demand will exceed supply. Rationing will result, no matter what anybody on this forum says or believes. That's just the way the economic world works. Get used to it and get over it!

The rationing will either be price rationing or some form of coupon rationing. Price rationing will benefit the wealthy, who will continue to buy as much gas as they want for as long as they can afford it. Coupon rationing will benefit the middle class and the poor, who will have to drive less rathe than not at all.

If you're rational about rationing, you'll advocate for the form of it that benefits you the most. For most of us, that would be coupon rationing. For a lucky few, price rationing will be better.

Of course, whatever form rationing takes, the real bneiciaries will be the oil producing countries and corporations.
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Old 04-10-08, 01:37 PM   #13
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Roody good points.

Here is an article that gives you an inkling of what is transpiring even now. I follow Tom Whipple's articles with great interest, he seems to have more of a real world grasp on what is happening than anyone else around.

Aaron
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"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"
_krazygluon
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Old 04-10-08, 01:48 PM   #14
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Coupon rationing... Ask anyone who grew up in Soviet Union how well that worked out.

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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
It's pretty clear that gas supplies are trending down and demand is rising faster than ever. At some point demand will exceed supply. Rationing will result, no matter what anybody on this forum says or believes. That's just the way the economic world works. Get used to it and get over it!

The rationing will either be price rationing or some form of coupon rationing. Price rationing will benefit the wealthy, who will continue to buy as much gas as they want for as long as they can afford it. Coupon rationing will benefit the middle class and the poor, who will have to drive less rathe than not at all.

If you're rational about rationing, you'll advocate for the form of it that benefits you the most. For most of us, that would be coupon rationing. For a lucky few, price rationing will be better.

Of course, whatever form rationing takes, the real bneiciaries will be the oil producing countries and corporations.
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Old 04-10-08, 02:08 PM   #15
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Coupon rationing... Ask anyone who grew up in Soviet Union how well that worked out.
It's barely possible that another society might handle rationing better than the USSR did.

Besides, I think they relied more on availability rationing than coupon rationing, which would be more similar to the gas shortages of the 1970s and 1980s. Availability is probably the unfairest of all rationing systems, since it relies mainly on luck.

Let's try to keep the apples with the apples, OK?
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Old 04-10-08, 02:39 PM   #16
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It's barely possible that another society might handle rationing better than the USSR did.

Besides, I think they relied more on availability rationing than coupon rationing, which would be more similar to the gas shortages of the 1970s and 1980s. Availability is probably the unfairest of all rationing systems, since it relies mainly on luck.

Let's try to keep the apples with the apples, OK?
It's also possible that pigs can fly. People will be people. You start doing any kind of rationing people will start hording it, or selling it at profit on black market. Rationing is rationing. There is nothing magical about gasoline, rationing it will produce the same results. Rationing was done based on coupons which led to decrease in availability. All of that stuff could have been bought at stores that didn't have rationing, but most people couldn't afford it.

All these ideas about increasing gas prices, rationing are short sighted knee jerk reactions that will only lead to failure. You can't just change people behavior in a positive way by passing laws or imposing restrictions. You need to change how people think fundamentally. Assume current generation is lost, and start educating the next one. Get kids to view bike/public transportation as a usual thing, getting a car not a passage to adulthood, start improving roadways so it's easier to ride a bike, walk, make public transportation more useful, etc. The change will be slow and will take a generation or two, but it will be more permanent and permanent then imposing rationing.

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Old 04-10-08, 04:00 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Tightwad View Post
IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.

Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
There's no reason to ration fuel, as rising prices will have the same effect--of reducing the overall miles that people drive.

The reason that the US had fuel shortages in the 1970's was that the US government enacted price controls in the face of an embargo. In other countries at the time, they were not that idiotic and allowed the price of fuel to float to whatever the market would bear. Although it was more expensive for a while, fuel was generally available if you had to drive somewhere and other countries never experienced the long lines and empty gas stations that the US did.

-----

The USSR is a grand example of that most common Socialist failure, market price controls. Require farmers to sell their goods for less than they think it's worth, and just like magic, every year is a bad year for crops--but the farmers or their close friends never seem to go hungry. And the ruling class doesn't go hungry either, because they pay the farmers through the back door. So who suffers? Are you a farmer or one of the ruling class?....

-----

Also many aspects of daily life have gotten to the point that for many people, motoring a lot is simply required. When you say what a great idea it would be to ration gas or raise it to $10/gallon, you should understand that you're basically proposing kicking the US economy in the nuts--and no politician is going to do that.
~
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Old 04-10-08, 05:26 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Tightwad View Post
IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.

Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
Go grab a book or two about the ancient history of the 1970s, and read about fuel rationing at that time.
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Old 04-10-08, 05:45 PM   #19
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The two places I have lived in the last year are an interesting study
in socio-economic dynamics and attitudes regarding fuel usage.
In Vermont, people do not have the expendable cash to waste driving
around. They more often than not work two crappy jobs that they might
have to drive 25 miles 1w to. So, they use only the gas they need to use.
Here in West Palm, FL., gratuitous, selfish, overindulgence is the norm.
A car is a right for any 16 year old to joyride in and SUVs carom in and out of
shopping malls with deadly aplomb. People sit in Escalades and let them idle for 20
minutes at a time while the spouse runs into the quicky-mart that is
1/2 mile from the condo. Its this attitude of entitlement that needs to be broken.
The people who are contributing to this problem the most are the ones who can
afford gas at almost any price. If we raise the price of gas we are only hurting the
people who already suffer. Im all for rationing. Real WWII style not fake '70's
style.
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Old 04-11-08, 12:40 AM   #20
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The vast majority of people want to drive, and they will do so until conditions make it unreasonably uncomfortable to do so. Eventually, a lot of people will opt out of driving, given the geometric oil-demand curve and the flat oil-supply curve; in the not-too-distant future, only the rich will drive everywhere they go. But it's very silly to impose such conditions artificially from above.
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Old 04-11-08, 02:38 AM   #21
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If you follow the trends, big oil in time of problems will jack prices and do things for not much other reason then to see what people will do. A big storm hits a few gas stations jump $.50 then drop to normal. 6 months later your just short of that $.50 raise for no reason this time.

I say this because when New Orleans was hit a few years ago a lot of stations (mainly truck stops in the south east USA) started fuel rationing that lasted for several days. Most where limiting gas to 10 gallons and diesel to 50 gallons at over $6.00 each (Most semi trucks need 125+gallons a day to run uninterrupted). So if history repeats its self then fuel rationing will happen again.
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Old 04-11-08, 05:45 AM   #22
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This is like your wet dream isn't it? NEver happen. No politician that ever wants to be re elected will even consider this. The coutry will be run into the ground before this happens.
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Old 04-11-08, 08:10 AM   #23
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Hate to inform you of this but, they're just gonna keep working on stuff like this:
http://www.greatfallstribune.com/app...WS01/804110316

They found 4+ billion barrels of recoverable oil in the U.S.
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Old 04-11-08, 09:51 AM   #24
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I would welcome coupon rationing. Since we use very little fuel, we'd have surplus to trade.

In the 70s, my entrepeneurial cousins made money selling donuts and coffee up and down lines of cars waiting for gas--they just went and bought stuff at the local donut shop for retail and then marked it up to sell to them waiting in cars. Brilliant!
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Old 04-11-08, 09:58 AM   #25
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I would welcome coupon rationing. Since we use very little fuel, we'd have surplus to trade.

In the 70s, my entrepeneurial cousins made money selling donuts and coffee up and down lines of cars waiting for gas--they just went and bought stuff at the local donut shop for retail and then marked it up to sell to them waiting in cars. Brilliant!
These days you would probably be arrested for price gouging.
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