Bus Users Stand in Middle of Parking Lot
Here's a good article on how bus users must wait in the middle of the parking lot instead of being able to catch the bus at the door of the mall. We all know this is done to reduce the number of "undesirables" who use public transit. I've seen the same treatment in Simon malls are over NJ and it's horrible! During the winter, you freeze waiting outside by the shelter and in the summer, it's an oven waiting for the bus.
I was at a mall the other day where the bus shelter was located in dark corner of the the parking lot! Quite dangerous if you ask me. Another mall where I live has no bus shelter at all with everyone standing out in the elements. One thing is certain, I will never go to a mall without a bicycle. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Malls pull out all the stops Sunday, July 15, 2007 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette You wouldn't want to be a worker with a wheelchair, or shopper in her eighties, when taking a bus to Ross Park Mall. You wouldn't want to be the bus driver either. Andy Casciato, driver of the 12A "North Hills Shopper,'' took an earful of complaints when he pulled up at the new stop more than 150 yards from the mall's entrance that first Monday in the rain, and he's still hearing about it. The stop was shifted well away from stores at Century III Mall about the same time, and South Hills Village Mall distanced itself from its transit customers more than a year ago. All three malls are owned by the Simon Property Group, but mall managers say the decisions to move the bus stops to outer edges of the parking lots were made independently. The Simon group got good press recently for "green initiatives'' like cutting its electricity usage, and a spokesman for Sustainable Pittsburgh said the discouragement of transit ridership is out of step with that trend. For those riding the buses to work or to shop, though, the change is much more personal than any big-picture concepts such as global warming or gasoline imports. "It's downright scary when you are there at night by yourself and the stores are all closed,'' Betty Muschar, a worker at Sears at Ross Park Mall, wrote in an e-mail about the stop that stands across the parking lot and on the other side of the perimeter roadway. "One Sunday, I was at the bus stop for an hour and 10 minutes by myself. I just cried.'' Lisa Earl, mall manager, said the bus stop was moved because of "negative feedback from customers and retailers having to navigate through large groups of people'' when buses stopped near the mall entrance. There was also a problem with trash and buses damaging the asphalt, she said. Asphalt damage is the reason Century III Mall in West Mifflin moved its stop 300 to 400 feet across the parking lot, Gina Mercorelli, mall manager, said. Heavy bus usage had pushed asphalt up a foot, she said. "It's more than a divot.'' South Hills Village moved its stop last year, but the mall manager was unavailable for comment. Whatever the reasons, Hazel Wasielewski, 80, of the East Allegheny neighborhood of the North Side, has cut back on shopping at Ross Park since she has been forced to take the long walk. She'd heard the change had something to do with undesirables, but said, "undesirables also have cars.'' She hoped the stop moved back before winter. A young worker who came off the 12A in a wheelchair didn't want her name used but talked as she wheeled toward the mall. I hadn't noticed the route was a bit uphill until I watched her. "Snow -- I'm not sure how I'm going to deal with that,'' she said, "even though I'm kind of strong. It's going to be a pain.'' The Port Authority would like to see the stops moved back, but it has no leverage. The new routes at Century III require turnarounds and add time and expense, authority spokesman Bob Grove said. On a beautiful day, the long walk doesn't much matter for most people. More than a dozen other riders were on the 12A with me when I boarded Downtown about 11:30 a.m. Thursday, and handfuls of people got off and on before we arrived at the mall. Some were shoppers, some workers, and all seemed reasonably fit. The walks were good for most. But winter will get here soon enough, and that walk will keep some folks away and be a hardship for those with no other choice. Court Gould, executive director of Sustainable Pittsburgh, thinks the way malls treat transit riders is an indicator of overall customer service. "We should bring them to the front door,'' Mr. Gould said, "because they're doing us all a favor.'' Some of those bus riders might not have other choices, but we can be sure they're not taking any of the prime parking spaces. If this had a big effect on the malls' bottom lines, it wouldn't have happened, but I doubt strongly that most shoppers care whether they have to walk past people waiting for a bus. People have waited for buses outside malls since there have been malls. I expect, too, that most wouldn't want to force an elderly woman or wheelchair user to travel 150 yards in bad weather if they knew that was happening. The door at Ross Park says "Simon Malls/More Choices.'' How about a more imaginative choice than banishment to the far side of the asphalt sea? First published on July 14, 2007 at 11:25 pm http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07196/801562-155.stm |
Economic segregation is alive and well in the dying Podunk industrial town where I live as well. I imagine it is the same way everywhere.
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Um. Maybe they are blocking the door? Or smoking? I hate coming out of a smoke free building into a huge group of people smoking. Or maybe it is private property and if they don't want a large group of people standing around at the entrance to the mall it is their buisness? Let the free market figure it out. If these people don't like it, they won't shop there, profits will go down. If the store workers who ride the bus don't like it, they'll change jobs. If profits go down, or workers are hard to find, then the bus stop will be moved back.
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Same thing at the malls in this part of the country. BTW AFAIK they took all the bus shelters out around here to keep the homeless from using them. They have these funky plastic benches with dividers between the seats to keep you from laying down on them too.
Aaron:) |
Originally Posted by maddyfish
(Post 6941619)
Um. Maybe they are blocking the door? Or smoking? I hate coming out of a smoke free building into a huge group of people smoking. Or maybe it is private property and if they don't want a large group of people standing around at the entrance to the mall it is their buisness? Let the free market figure it out. If these people don't like it, they won't shop there, profits will go down. If the store workers who ride the bus don't like it, they'll change jobs. If profits go down, or workers are hard to find, then the bus stop will be moved back.
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Originally Posted by Artkansas
(Post 6942393)
:lol::roflmao2::lol: Thanks for the excellent humor. I needed some this morning.
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is in the best interests of the stores. The way I understand it is they want to get people on the financial edge, not over the edge. They make money from late fees and universal default. That is why the bankruptcy laws were changed recently to keep people in that late fee-high interest rate regime for as long as possible. As far as asphalt damage, around here the bus stops have special hard pan steel reinforced concrete at the stops when the road itself is asphalt. |
You guys are the discriminatory ones! Who says just the 'lower class' rides the bus? Keep your judgementalism to yourselves.
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Originally Posted by maddyfish
(Post 6942727)
I see nothing funny. What is the problem with having the bus empty/load out in the parking lot? People park there, and walk into the mall. Why should bus riders be dropped off and picked up right at the door? Everbody else has to walk out into the parking lot/bike rack.
No, the average bus user isn't disabled. But the law in the US requires equal access to mass transit facilities, and this is *not* equal access. As a teenager, I thought the equal access requirement was stupid. It was "obviously" a waste of money on "improvements" no one would ever use. In the years since then, I've lost track of how many times I've used things like ADA mandated handrails, door buttons, and ramps to make life easier when my hands are full, I feel sick, or my hip is acting up. I was wrong as a teen. Even if everyone is ablebodied, the ADA accessibility rules change many situations from annoying or difficult to easy... and not everyone is ablebodied. |
Originally Posted by Torrilin
(Post 6943954)
A person in a wheelchair or with a walker who has a car has reserved parking by the entrance, typically less than 100 feet of walking. A person in a wheelchair or with a walker who takes the bus... doesn't. They now have a substantially longer walk than someone with the same kind of disability who is richer. For me, a move like this isn't a problem. For them, it's a serious problem. And in cities that get heavy snow, it is common for businesses to deliberately block off bus shelters with snow barriers. When blocking off the shelter blocks off access to the business, they don't do it, because it hurts them just as much as the transit users (or more).
No, the average bus user isn't disabled. But the law in the US requires equal access to mass transit facilities, and this is *not* equal access. As a teenager, I thought the equal access requirement was stupid. It was "obviously" a waste of money on "improvements" no one would ever use. In the years since then, I've lost track of how many times I've used things like ADA mandated handrails, door buttons, and ramps to make life easier when my hands are full, I feel sick, or my hip is acting up. I was wrong as a teen. Even if everyone is ablebodied, the ADA accessibility rules change many situations from annoying or difficult to easy... and not everyone is ablebodied. |
Originally Posted by maddyfish
(Post 6943792)
You guys are the discriminatory ones! Who says just the 'lower class' rides the bus? Keep your judgementalism to yourselves.
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Originally Posted by wahoonc
(Post 6942166)
Same thing at the malls in this part of the country. BTW AFAIK they took all the bus shelters out around here to keep the homeless from using them. They have these funky plastic benches with dividers between the seats to keep you from laying down on them too.
Aaron:) During the winter, it's freezing out there and really limits the number of time transit users can visit the mall. These shelters offer very little protection against the elements if they even have them. The malls themselves could care less if the transit users don't come because they consider the bus shelter a problem. Malls in general have the bus companies stop service early even though the stores stay opens late in particular the theater. |
Originally Posted by littledog
(Post 6941330)
Economic segregation is alive and well in the dying Podunk industrial town where I live as well. I imagine it is the same way everywhere.
I don't understand why more people don't bicycle to these malls. Taking the bus to the mall, (as I did last month) you feel the segregation waiting at that bus stop. The bicycle gives you the same power as the motorist. The ability to come and go without being dependant on a bus schedule is called freedom. I was asking a guy at the bus stop last weekend, why not ride an inexpensive bicyle like me? He told me it was too dangerous. It's hopeless. |
Buses go to malls? I've seen stops out on the freeway access roads, not anywhere at the mall they can get on/off the bus. Malls don't want heavy buses on the parking lots most of the time. In many areas, malls are dying these days. People want to drive up to and park close to the door. Big strip centers are coming on strong.
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Originally Posted by maddyfish
(Post 6942727)
I see nothing funny. What is the problem with having the bus empty/load out in the parking lot? People park there, and walk into the mall. Why should bus riders be dropped off and picked up right at the door? Everbody else has to walk out into the parking lot/bike rack.
It's obvious that you and I are on opposing ends of the political spectrum. :eek: |
Wow, this makes me feel so lucky! Most of our malls are well served by transit - several malls are directly attached to transit stations, and brag about it!
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Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
(Post 6947603)
Agreed.
I don't understand why more people don't bicycle to these malls. Taking the bus to the mall, (as I did last month) you feel the segregation waiting at that bus stop. The bicycle gives you the same power as the motorist. The ability to come and go without being dependant on a bus schedule is called freedom. I was asking a guy at the bus stop last weekend, why not ride an inexpensive bicyle like me? He told me it was too dangerous. It's hopeless. Aaron:) |
Bike parking is a requirement in Madison. It's a regulation that (like the ADA) shouldn't *need* to be there, but it is easy for a business owner to forget that other people are not like them. In areas where city planning is weak and businesses can get plans almost rubber stamped, this can cause real problems.
Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
I don't understand why more people don't bicycle to these malls. Taking the bus to the mall, (as I did last month) you feel the segregation waiting at that bus stop. The bicycle gives you the same power as the motorist. The ability to come and go without being dependant on a bus schedule is called freedom.
The remaining "malls" are all strip malls and are unspeakably inconvenient in winter. No bus stops, piles of snow block sight lines, parking lots iced over... It's not very accessible or comfortable for me, and someone in a wheelchair or walker would find it impossible. If I'm going to walk in an open air mall in winter, I'd rather go downtown and hit State St. State St is *less* impossible, but it's still not a place any sane person would want to be in winter (you do get door to door bus service, but that's *it*). |
this type of stuff is self regulating. Mall type stores are going out of business or scaling back left and right.
footlocker lane bryant gap Macy's sharper image disney store Ann Taylor Zales All of those are mall type stores that are either going bankrupt or scaling way back. Now of course, it probably has more to do with the current economic conditions and bad management decisions.....however you can't rule out ease of access to the malls. If you limit one sector of the populace by making it very difficult to even get to the mall, you are going to lose sales. Personally, I think the mall as a shopping experience is a dinosaur, and completely consumer unfriendly. Eventually it will wither and die away replaced by something else. |
In the Houston area, I have never seen buses entering mall parking lots, and there are some huge mall parking lots around here. With few exceptions, the mall itself is quite far from the streets.
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Originally Posted by bizzz111
(Post 6952278)
this type of stuff is self regulating. Mall type stores are going out of business or scaling back left and right.
\snip All of those are mall type stores that are either going bankrupt or scaling way back. Now of course, it probably has more to do with the current economic conditions and bad management decisions.....however you can't rule out ease of access to the malls. If you limit one sector of the populace by making it very difficult to even get to the mall, you are going to lose sales. Personally, I think the mall as a shopping experience is a dinosaur, and completely consumer unfriendly. Eventually it will wither and die away replaced by something else. I once lived in a city where the local Mall was also the major transfer point for the bus system. They had the transfer station set up in the back, it was a glorified signpost with a bus stop sign and below that the word transfer. I think they added a bench at some point but I forget. I find it quite convenient, there was an ATM machine in the mall and I could run errands or pick up a prescription at the Drug store there on my way home without any problems at all. But if Mall owners aren't enlightened enough to realize this source of customers then their business will die the death it deserves. |
If a bus stop is on your private property, I wonder if you as the owner have to be concerned about lawsuits arising from accidents, crime, and bus-related handicapped access or discrimination issues.
I don't know the answer to that, but I'd imagine it crosses the minds of the shopping mall owner's attorneys. |
Originally Posted by maddyfish
(Post 6943792)
You guys are the discriminatory ones! Who says just the 'lower class' rides the bus? Keep your judgementalism to yourselves.
If people congregating near the entrance to the mall is the problem, then I see no reason why they couldn't have set-down near the entrance and pick-up further away. If bus shelters could be improved (and they have to be) and carry useful and accurate information about bus times, then people would probably choose to wait inside the mall, rather than at the entrance. Edit: In fact the bus times should be displayed in a convenient and comfortable location inside the mall! It must have been a slow news day. :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by Platy
(Post 6953171)
If a bus stop is on your private property, I wonder if you as the owner have to be concerned about lawsuits arising from accidents, crime, and bus-related handicapped access or discrimination issues.
I don't know the answer to that, but I'd imagine it crosses the minds of the shopping mall owner's attorneys. Aaron:) |
Originally Posted by Torrilin
(Post 6949312)
Sounds like the roads around your malls are better designed than around here. West Towne Mall is a contributing factor to a really *dire* sequence of intersections. East Towne Mall is if anything worse - probably 4-5 miles worth of poorly designed intersections on the main street running past the mall. I can and do bike to West Towne, but the last 1/4 mile is a real mess and I tend to end up walking. Once I'm through the last 1/4 mile, parking my bike is easy. I should try biking to East Towne at some point (it should in theory be the more accessible mall for me) but the area is so badly designed that I keep putting it off.
The remaining "malls" are all strip malls and are unspeakably inconvenient in winter. No bus stops, piles of snow block sight lines, parking lots iced over... It's not very accessible or comfortable for me, and someone in a wheelchair or walker would find it impossible. If I'm going to walk in an open air mall in winter, I'd rather go downtown and hit State St. State St is *less* impossible, but it's still not a place any sane person would want to be in winter (you do get door to door bus service, but that's *it*). I like State Street, even in winter. I'm not a winter biker though, I take the bus there in winter. And keep in mind that it is not nearly as bad most winters as it was this past winter. Last winter was insane. |
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