Machka 

Suppose you lived in an area that was not serviced by the usual power system (power lines, etc.) ... what are some options you would look at for creating power?

Solar panels might be one idea. A bicycle generator system might be another idea. What else?


Have any of you used these alternate systems to create power?

Abneycat

I have used solar panels on a small scale, they are effective depending on your locale - the availability of amorphous panels has improved this situation, as they can work better in cloudy areas.

Bicycle generators are fun, and interesting for little bike music festivals and such, but using one for power generation on a daily basis would be quite poor, I would find. Solar simply needs to be installed and it gives, a bicycle generator constantly needs input. I guess if you were only using a very tiny amount of power and were one of those types that loved to ride the trainer every day it could be spiffy beans - but you could be riding outside instead, while your other power generation device was taking care of the home front.

I stayed with a fellow who was running his entire property (a house, and a large workshop) on wind and solar. He enjoyed building his wind system, but it caused him lots of legal troubles and wasn't worth the effort in the end, I think he found.

Torrilin

My parents' new house is build to be relatively efficient at trapping heat, and is partially run on solar power. They seem quite pleased with it, as they live in a very cloudy area, but the solar panels still cut the electricity bill by a large amount. The appliances they have are fairly efficient as well, which doesn't hurt.

Wind power would not be appropriate at this site, as it is on a creek bed... no slope winds at all. On a clearcut hillside, you do get rather more wind, but hillsides in that area don't *stay* clear cut. And since it is so very hilly, there isn't much wind otherwise.

Platy

A dynohub can charge 4 AA batteries in a metric century. A portable solar battery charger can charge 4 AA batteries in a day.

So with a portable battery charging system your electricity budget is only about 4 AA batteries per day.

Obviously, you'd want to use your small amount of electricity for valuable things that only electricity can do: ipods, gps, cell phone, radio, very low power computer, etc.

For things that require heat, use solar heat as directly as possible. Propane and kerosene may also be good options. Grinders, mills, sewing machines, tools, etc should be fully mechanical.

The next step up from little portable battery chargers would be a fixed solar panel that can run a small refrigerator and lighting system.

Doug5150

I haven't done it yet. May try some kind of solar setup when I relocate to the desert-southwest.

Forget the bicycle-thing, it's unrealistic. Solar or windmills are pretty much it.

You could also just live straight off an internal-combustion generator. That's noisy and involves burning fuel and exhaust--but if you don't need it most of the time, the cost savings over a solar or wind setup can still be fairly large, and you always have full power whenever you need it.

For $800 you can buy a fairly-decent brand of generator that puts out 5000 watts, and that you can plug 120 or 240-V appliances right into. Meanwhile, a single 200-watt solar panel will cost you ~$800 alone. $800 will get you a cheaper-brand of 400-watt windmill, but no tower to put it on. And both the solar panel and the windmill would still need a charger/battery bank/inverter setup to be of any use at all.
~

ModoVincere

Solar panels on the roof, a wind turbine generator, solar collector and stirling engine, and bicycle generator.

The main source would probably be the solar panes and the solar collector combined with a stirling engine....The US military uses small stirling engines mounted at the end of solar collectors and they are good for multiple KW production. A wind turbine might come in handy on stormy/cloudy days where the sun light is just not strong enough to power the stirling engine or the solar cells. And the bicycle generator would really just be for fun....might could add another 200-250 watt for 1 to 1 1/2 hours on really cold days...so look for 300-400 watt hrs from it.

wahoonc

Lots of options depending on the locale and available natural resources.

I have been doing this exercise based on where I currently live; Solar panels, earth sheltered (cooling is more of an issue than heating around here) low voltage lighting (CFL's, LED's etc) and very energy efficient appliances. If you are willing to deal with kerosene and/or bottled gas it can be used for heating, cooking and refrigeration.

Wind power is not as good a choice for me as the solar. Also look into hydro depending on the location. I know people that power a decent sized homestead via an old mill dam with a small hydro unit installed in the old mill race. We have a two branches (small creeks) on our property, one has the potential to generate enough power to keep a small energy efficient home taken care of in all except extreme drought conditions, however we will have to build a dam to utilize it.

Aaron

Allen

Ya'll might enjoy This site of eco friendly homes--underground homes, yurts, subsistence homes, etc.

wahoonc

$800 generator is going to be a marginal POS and I wouldn't want to depend on it, then you have the issues of making sure it is fueled and maintained ($$$). FWIW the company I work for has several generators we use in the field. They range from 5000 watt gas powered up to a couple of 17kw 3ph 480v diesel powered. They are maintenance intensive, typical use load is around 1500-2000 hours a year. The big diesels have to have the oil changed every 80-100 hours of operation and they aren't cheap to purchase. The smallest generators we buy are the Honda 5,000 watt and they are over $2,000. But we have learned that is what works and works dependably.

The savings may be immediate but a decent solar panel or wind generator should last for many years a good quality ICE generator isn't going to last as long under heavy use. FWIW I have a 18kw LP fired generator at home for backup power. It is a $7,000+ unit with all of the code required transfer switches and installation. I didn't pay anywhere close to that for mine (bought it at a bankruptcy sale)

Anything off the grid is going to require compromise and if you try to maintain a lifestyle similar to what is lived on the grid, it is going to cost you much more than the current cheap electricity provided by a local supplier.

Aaron

Machka 

I've been trying to think what a person would need/want power for.

For me, I'd want to be able to operate a computer (laptop), a radio, a CD player (or similar music making machine ... MP3?), and maybe a small portable TV to watch the occasional show. Some sort of refrigeration system would also be good, and I would like a microwave but could probably live without it. And I suppose some way to recharge batteries for a light or two and a couple cameras. What else would there be?

Allen

Supplemental heat both for living space and H2O
Cooling
Pumping water
The occasional power tool/vacuum cleaner--shop vac
Oven/stove unless that is gas or wood

Machka 

We won't likely need heating or cooling ... Rowan hasn't had either since 2004.
We have no need for power tools.
Rowan has his Trangia to cook with.

And as for the shower situation, Rowan already has a solar shower but something slightly more sophisticated might be nice.

ModoVincere

Trangia is a good backpacking stove. You'll probably want a little more for frequent, real meal cooking. You could look at a marine alcohol stove with multiple burners....or get a couple Trangias. Eating one pot meals all the time gets old quick.
Also, if this is for a cabin or real living quarters, hot water is invaluable....You can install a solar hot water heater for a few grand. Again, you will be dependent on solar heating, which can be limited from time to time. But the newer models do provide hot water and reasonable quantities of such.

What about washing clothes and such? Do you plan on hand washing everything?

Machka 

I believe Rowan still has both his Trangias ... I'm not sure what all he managed to save from the bushfire. But he has spent a year or more cooking with his Trangias so that's not a problem.

And there are always laundromats around, otherwise handwashing works.

If it were for a cabin or real living quarters, a more permanent solar hot water heater would be a good idea ... and some here might want to look into that if they are considering a move to other power sources. Perhaps at some point down the road we might look into that too. But in this case, we have no cabin or real living quarters.

2manybikes

His place was hit by the fires?!

The exact climate in that location is a key factor.
If you don't need home heating or cooling that would be pretty good. In that case a refrigerator will probably need the most power. A hot water shower can be built to work extremely well in a sunny place. The amount of sunlight in a year is a big factor. I agree that solar or wind will cost a lot more than buying electricity. One example is a friend who is almost off the grid here in New England. The pay back for the solar is about 50 years.

Is there a place to build a water wheel?

Machka 

Yes ... you've heard about the Australian (Victoria) bushfires which have burned 450,000 hectares, killed 189 people (at latest count), destroyed nearly 2000 homes, left somewhere around 7000 people homeless, and have wiped out an estimate of a million animals .... his was one of those 2000 homes. He narrowly escaped with his life and a few of his possessions.

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=509341

He has moved out of the evac center now onto the orchard where he works (which was also partially burnt) ... but there is no power out there. So he is considering various options for now.

But we'd also like to live "off the grid" as much as possible once I get there too ... wherever we end up living. So we're also looking for longer-term options.


Yes, I agree that location would make a huge difference. You couldn't get away without some sort of heat source in this part of Canada for several months of the year. Australia, however, doesn't get all that cold. It does get chilly, and there is snow in the mountains, but not like -30C or anything.


I'm not sure about a water wheel. When I think of them, I think of the huge things the prairie pioneers used to grind grain into flour, but perhaps there is a smaller version out there.


I'm still intrigued by the bicycle option. Let's say both of us rode our trainers for an hour each night ... could we power a computer?

wahoonc

I think for a laptop you would be best served using a small solar panel for recharging. Some of the newer solid state laptops will run 4-7 hours on a full charge up. For lighting you can do the same with the rechargeable LED lanterns or go with something like Aladdin Lamps (get the aluminum ones with the paper shades) refrigeration can be provided by a gas or kerosene power. Depending on the capacity you need, one of the smaller portable 3way units might suit. (this one is for the US market, but I suspect they also make them for the AU market too. FWIW I own both of the products I have listed above and can highly recommend them.

We used to spend summers at a friend's "camp" in rural Maine when I was younger. The cabin had a gas stove and gas fridge, they were fueled by 100# bottles of LP that were trucked in from town. Lighting was provided by Aladdin lamps, gas mantle lanterns and kerosene lanterns, and we all had flashlights available. Water was pumped in from a cistern or well (don't recall) but there was a hand pump in the kitchen that came up through the counter top. For heat, when needed, there were a couple of wood stoves and a fireplace. Entertainment was self provided, but there were games, books, a huge collection of old National Geographic magazines, a battery powered radio, and a hand cranked Victrola Bathroom was a genuine outhouse.

I lived for a period of time in a pickup camper off grid. Heat, lights and refrigeration were provided by LP gas, I did have a couple of batteries that I took to work and recharged to use for backup lighting and the on board water pump. Hot water was also LP fired. The water tank was filled from a hand pumped well near the truck. I had a chemical toilet that got dumped in a septic system up the road.

You have done plenty of camping when you tour, just expand on it.

Another thought just came to mind. Look for a small self contained travel trailer (caravan?) if it is an older one and set up correctly it will provide just about everything you need in a nice self contained package. I have a couple of old Airstreams that I have used for just that purpose over the years. Mine are on the larger side, but are fully self contained and with a bit of prior planning I can spend quite a bit of time off the grid.

Aaron

TomM

Have you considered not having items that required a "grid"? Check this out if you absolutely need power:

https://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&oq=bicycle+po

Machka 

Yes, of course. Like using Rowan's Trangia instead of a "real" stove/oven, like using his solar shower instead of having a "real" shower ....

But we do still like listening to music, and would like to have computer access so I can stay in touch with my family ... although Rowan's pocketmail works quite well for that ... and it would be handy to have a way to keep food cool so it doesn't go bad.

Machka 

Yes, we will very likely look for a caravan to live in. There aren't many options in the way of housing now, but we were thinking of going the caravan route anyway. It would be interesting to see if solar panels can be installed on/near (I'm not quite sure how they work) a caravan.

wahoonc

They can be installed in various manners. I have some installed on the top of my later model Airstream (1981 modelvs my 1975) They can't quite keep up in the winter time when I have to run the furnace. I am considering getting a ground mount array and running a cord to the Airstream to use them as supplemental power. FWIW I also have a couple of the small Honda generators that can be hooked up in parallel to power the AC on the trailer, or can be run as a single to charge the batteries and provide power for a bit. If you can get a decent sized solar panel array to keep the battery charged up you may not need the generator. With Rowan's apparent ability to fix things a used caravan would be the quick and dirty way to go. It would give you instant shelter that can be moved fairly easily if required. FWIW in my part of the country I try to park in the shade...which negates the solar panels, that is where a generator comes in handy. I can run it for about 2 hours every other day and more than stay ahead of the battery discharge rate. I also have an on board gas lamp, but prefer to use it only in cooler weather. I suspect that if I got better and more batteries I could make them last longer between recharging. There are unlimited options out there, you just have to make your choices based on what is available, what will work best for you and the costs involved. Good luck with your choices and keep in touch and let us know how things are going.

EDIT: For music the Ipod with a plug in speaker system is hard to beat. I use a generic MP3 player with some old walkman speakers and occasionally play a CD on the laptop. But have found it is better to use the MP3 player, easier on batteries.

Aaron

2manybikes

OMG !! I'm not sure what is worse, being there, or not being there and worrying about Rowan. Good luck to both of you. !!!! I hope Rowan is OK. I can't imagine what that would be like.

The bikes for a couple of hours a night is not enough. There are a few problems. One problem is that you need a battery so that if you stop pedaling the power does not go off instantly. So you need a charged battery anyway. Using even four bottle dynamos on one bike, or two on each bike would take too long to charge the battery. I just looked at the wattage on my daughters laptop. You could however contribute to the battery charging partly with the bikes. Or, if you don't mind pedaling for a few days to charge the battery to get a few hours of comuter use, you could do that. There might only be two people in the world who could pedal long enough to fill the battery. Lucky for you, they are both going to be there.

A solar panel can be left charging for as long as it takes while you do something else.
Solar,wind, or hydro would be the way to charge the battery. Depending oh how much you spend on the solar panels, it might take a day or two to charge the battery. Since you probably don't need the computer every day, I don't see any problem charging it with solar if you can afford the set up cost.

You might consider charging some batteries at another location that has power, like a neighbor or a store in town. Is there electricity already available at Rowans? Charging just the batteries for a few small things is not going to cost a lot if there is electric power available at Rowans.

bragi

How about lights? Non-electric options are available, but they're a bit of a pain, and realistically, more expensive than electric. CFL lights are okay, but I'm much more enthusiastic about LEDs. They produce a lot of light in exchange for very few amp-hours, and the "bulbs" have an extremely long life span. LED lights are very expensive initially, but they'll more than pay for themselves in the long run.

Broadly speaking, though, I agree with you that all of us, if we really wanted to, could live fairly comfortably with a fraction of the electricity we currently use. Assuming of course, that you can do without air conditioning. Pulling that one off in a hot climate, like the American Southwest, or most of Australia, takes some imagination...

Machka 

No ... the fire burnt out a lot of the electrical systems, and burnt down the buildings on the orchard property so there's nowhere to route the power lines to when/if it is restored to the area.



That's quite doable ... Rowan survived the heatwave that preceded the bushfires without air conditioning. For quite some time the temps were going up into the mid-40s Celcius (110-115°F) every day.

Hill and Dale

For electric power in Mongolia they used a small photovoltaic with a controller, battery and inverter. The families I stayed with charged their mobile phone, had a single compact flourescent bulb for light and watched TV for a couple of hours a night from the small panel. The invertor provided 110 AC 60 Hz and 220 AC 50 Hz. Not sure of ultimate capacity but I am sure it could also charge a laptop.