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  1. #1
    Banned. folder fanatic's Avatar
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    Moving Beyond Car Dependence All Of The Time-The Dutch Show Another Way

    "........there are similarities. The Netherlands resembles the United States in being a prosperous, technologically advanced nation where a huge share of the population owns automobiles. They simply don’t drive them each and every time they leave home, thanks to common sense transportation policies through which biking and transit are promoted as an attractive alternative to the car. Indeed, millions of Dutch commuters combine bike and train trips, which offer the point-to-point convenience of the automobile and the speed of transit....."-http://www.energybulletin.net/storie...bicycling-home

    Something to think about the real difference between the US and The Netherlands. While we both have our populations each own at least one car, the Dutch seem to move beyond using the thing each and every time they go out. They are not shy about using public transit, walking and of course biking. Then combine the other options as best suits them for each situation. Not turn on each other for not constantly paying homage to only the automobile or some other similarly gold calf. I think visiting pilgrims to The Netherlands seem to be getting the message.

    And pass it along to the next generation-not locking them away from anything else but the cocooned interior of a auto due to irrational fear of loss (on the parent's part):

    "......a large part of the answer that afternoon at a suburban primary school, where Principal Peter Kooy told us that 95 percent of older students—kids in the 10–12 age range—bike to school at least some of the time......Compare that to the 15 percent who either walk or bike to school in the United States, down from 50 percent in 1970......A commitment to biking is not uniquely imprinted in the Dutch DNA. It is the result of a conscious push to promote biking that has resulted in a surge of cycle use since the 1970s......"-http://www.energybulletin.net/storie...bicycling-home

    Take the time to read the full article. It is a real mind blower.
    Last edited by folder fanatic; 04-23-12 at 10:25 PM.

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    Banned. folder fanatic's Avatar
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  3. #3
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    Back in New Zealand as a kid I rode an old raleigh 10 speed to and from school even in the midde of winter. Suicide shifters, brake extensions along the flat section for when I didn't want to use the drops. Even as a parent I really don't understand the irrational fear parents have of letting their kids walk/bike to school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krobinson103 View Post
    Back in New Zealand as a kid I rode an old raleigh 10 speed to and from school even in the midde of winter. Suicide shifters, brake extensions along the flat section for when I didn't want to use the drops. Even as a parent I really don't understand the irrational fear parents have of letting their kids walk/bike to school.
    I'm not sure the fear is irrational. Many streets on the way to school are not safe to bike on because of car traffic. Safe for an adult, maybe, but not for a child.

    If we want our children to bike to school, we should make the streets safer for them with either separated bike lanes or very low speed limits in school zones.

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    Banned. folder fanatic's Avatar
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    If the streets are not considered safe enough for a child's passage with a bike-or even walking-then it is not safe for anyone. Much of the fear for a child's safety stems from an irrational fear of the "stranger." Even though it is statistically more likely that harm will come from a trusted person known to the child. As far as bikes go, safety concerns is the same for anyone using public streets or public places. The streets are simply overcrowded, jammed full of people in private owned motor vehicles anxious to get to their destinations, resentful of anything (this includes anything slower in potential speed or smaller in size) that might impeded their progress or speed. The only way I can see bicycles getting their fair share of this sort of road is to take part of it forcibly by placing anti motor vehicle barriers to really claim part of it. Not those useless cutesy painted bike lanes. All those painted bike lanes do is encourage double parking for motor vehicles! Or even driving on those selfsame lanes. Most of the time, there is no safe dependable place-manned or even automated-bicycle parking garages to store the bike while the owner is in class or the workplace (not some equally useless & tastelessly artsy bike sculpture parking stand to lock to). The Netherlands and many other progressive European countries already have this sort of infrastructure and social support already in place. It will take a long time for others to catch up-expect much bickering & resentment-unless there is something major and unforeseen which will change people's attitudes and habits in a hurry (like no gas/petrol anywhere or private owned motor vehicles priced out of most people's finances).
    Last edited by folder fanatic; 04-26-12 at 11:39 AM.

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    Senior Member PatrickGSR94's Avatar
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    Kids don't walk or bike to school nearly as much these days because of A) suburban sprawl, and B) the increased threat (either real or perceived) of child predators. Many people live so far away from school nowadays, even more so than in the 80's when I grew up. I grew up going to a private school, not the neighborhood public school. So I was driven there in a car anyway. When I switched to a public high school when my family moved, kids in nearby neighborhoods walked or biked to school, but we were still 3-4 miles away and drove or rode the bus.

    I missed the bus one day and started walking home. A little over halfway there my mom saw me and picked me up. She had a cow that I didn't call for anybody.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by folder fanatic View Post
    If the streets are not considered safe enough for a child's passage with a bike-or even walking-then it is not safe for anyone. Much of the fear for a child's safety stems from an irrational fear of the "stranger." Even though it is statistically more likely that harm will come from a trusted person known to the child. As far as bikes go, safety concerns is the same for anyone using public streets or public places. The streets are simply overcrowded, jammed full of people in private owned motor vehicles anxious to get to their destinations, resentful of anything (this includes anything slower in potential speed or smaller in size) that might impeded their progress or speed. The only way I can see bicycles getting their fair share of this sort of road is to take part of it forcibly by placing anti motor vehicle barriers to really claim part of it. Not those useless cutesy painted bike lanes. All those painted bike lanes do is encourage double parking for motor vehicles! Or even driving on those selfsame lanes. Most of the time, there is no safe dependable place-manned or even automated-bicycle parking garages to store the bike while the owner is in class or the workplace (not some equally useless & tastelessly artsy bike sculpture parking stand to lock to). The Netherlands and many other progressive European countries already have this sort of infrastructure and social support already in place. It will take a long time for others to catch up-expect much bickering & resentment-unless there is something major and unforeseen which will change people's attitudes and habits in a hurry (like no gas/petrol anywhere or private owned motor vehicles priced out of most people's finances).
    This debate has gone on for years between cycling advocates. One one side you have the VC advocates and the other you have the seperate bike lane advocates. Both have a point. But from the standpoint of children and fear parents don't expect children to be as aware as an adult and in most cases they aren't. They don't have farther to go to school because of sprawl, at least not from Suburban sprawl, because housing developments tend to built with a school right in the center of them. But yes the streets are overcrowded. And yes the speed limits are set too high even close to schools, 25mph with cars parked on the side of the road that kids can dart out onto is simply not safe. It is harder for us to accept the death or injury of a child than it is for an adult and always will be.

    As for the cute little painted bike lanes if it weren't for one of them I would have been SOL when a was cut off by a car and knocked down with my bike destroyed. The CA. VC 21211 saved my botttom and required the driver's insurance to make me whole. You can't cross a solid white line into a bike lane unless you are responding to an emergency.

    But yes we as a society we are afraid of losing our kids, buy any milk lately? I used to work for a school district and can assure you parents put a lot of pressure on the district when a kid gt hit by a car. Some schools banned bike riding all together. I remember one time when a teacher ran down one of her own students after school because he had darted out from between cars to try and get her attention. Streets are more dangerous today than when I was in school and kids are more distracted than they were when I was in school.

    I am not saying it should be that way but for now they are that way and without a seperate bike path kids are cannon fodder for the fight between car advocates and alternative transportation advocates. How many have to be struck down before it is a problem? Find a way to solve the problem and people may start to allow their kids the freedoms we once had as kids. Ask the people to give the freedoms back first and things will get better and you might as well spit in the wind. I have sat through too many community school board meetings to believe parents will aloow the, "just do it" idea to change their mind on what is safe for their kids. Go to a few and tell me what you discover.
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  8. #8
    Banned. folder fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    This debate has gone on for years between cycling advocates. One one side you have the VC advocates and the other you have the seperate bike lane advocates. Both have a point. But from the standpoint of children and fear parents don't expect children to be as aware as an adult and in most cases they aren't. They don't have farther to go to school because of sprawl, at least not from Suburban sprawl, because housing developments tend to built with a school right in the center of them. But yes the streets are overcrowded. And yes the speed limits are set too high even close to schools, 25mph with cars parked on the side of the road that kids can dart out onto is simply not safe. It is harder for us to accept the death or injury of a child than it is for an adult and always will be.

    As for the cute little painted bike lanes if it weren't for one of them I would have been SOL when a was cut off by a car and knocked down with my bike destroyed. The CA. VC 21211 saved my botttom and required the driver's insurance to make me whole. You can't cross a solid white line into a bike lane unless you are responding to an emergency.

    But yes we as a society we are afraid of losing our kids, buy any milk lately? I used to work for a school district and can assure you parents put a lot of pressure on the district when a kid gt hit by a car. Some schools banned bike riding all together. I remember one time when a teacher ran down one of her own students after school because he had darted out from between cars to try and get her attention. Streets are more dangerous today than when I was in school and kids are more distracted than they were when I was in school.

    I am not saying it should be that way but for now they are that way and without a seperate bike path kids are cannon fodder for the fight between car advocates and alternative transportation advocates. How many have to be struck down before it is a problem? Find a way to solve the problem and people may start to allow their kids the freedoms we once had as kids. Ask the people to give the freedoms back first and things will get better and you might as well spit in the wind. I have sat through too many community school board meetings to believe parents will aloow the, "just do it" idea to change their mind on what is safe for their kids. Go to a few and tell me what you discover.
    I am a bit older than you are having graduated from high school back in the mid 1970s. I rode bicycles long before that (starting at the early 1960s). I still ride bikes in the greater Los Angeles area as an "mature" (though not too old) adult long past the child raising stage-or any interest in-of life. Plus I taught elementary school until I return home to care for my now deceased father. I can attest to the increase of the speed limit even visiting my old high school just last night and seeing the posted speed limit up 5 miles from 30 miles per hour (a real eye opener). Remember that many of us are now either past the prime child bearing years or even chose not to have children at all. That is a choice which might ring hollow for some "child advocates." It still should be a choice not forced or heaped on others. I have dogs & cats. As much as I am really into them, I do not bring them around others except in the proper circumstances that pets belong or go to. So please limit the kid loving rather tiring hollow pleas to those forums & parties that cater to them. I was my own student's teacher & protector when I taught. I no longer am as the "children" are now all grown and long gone from the school system. That is the job of a teacher was and still is. I just don't need to perform my teacher role anymore since I moved on to another point in my life.

    As this is a bicycle forum, I will state I don't want my 80+ year old mother riding a tricycle on the streets around here. Her life is just as valuable as anyone else'-including children. Everybody bleeds and suffers pain in the same way. It is bad enough that the kooks and the illegal undocumented immigrants that packed the streets around here have free license to run down anyone in their way (insurance & laws are for somewhere other than Gangland where I currently live, not suburbia). Until separation of the road or employment catches up, I will choose to ride just like I did when I was young-with no painted bike lanes or sidewalks to give me a false sense of protection.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by folder fanatic View Post
    I am a bit older than you are having graduated from high school back in the mid 1970s. I rode bicycles long before that (starting at the early 1960s). I still ride bikes in the greater Los Angeles area as an "mature" (though not too old) adult long past the child raising stage-or any interest in-of life. Plus I taught elementary school until I return home to care for my now deceased father. I can attest to the increase of the speed limit even visiting my old high school just last night and seeing the posted speed limit up 5 miles from 30 miles per hour (a real eye opener). Remember that many of us are now either past the prime child bearing years or even chose not to have children at all. That is a choice which might ring hollow for some "child advocates." It still should be a choice not forced or heaped on others. I have dogs & cats. As much as I am really into them, I do not bring them around others except in the proper circumstances that pets belong or go to. So please limit the kid loving rather tiring hollow pleas to those forums & parties that cater to them. I was my own student's teacher & protector when I taught. I no longer am as the "children" are now all grown and long gone from the school system. That is the job of a teacher was and still is. I just don't need to perform my teacher role anymore since I moved on to another point in my life.

    As this is a bicycle forum, I will state I don't want my 80+ year old mother riding a tricycle on the streets around here. Her life is just as valuable as anyone else'-including children. Everybody bleeds and suffers pain in the same way. It is bad enough that the kooks and the illegal undocumented immigrants that packed the streets around here have free license to run down anyone in their way (insurance & laws are for somewhere other than Gangland where I currently live, not suburbia). Until separation of the road or employment catches up, I will choose to ride just like I did when I was young-with no painted bike lanes or sidewalks to give me a false sense of protection.
    I said much of the same things as you only I gave credit to the parents and admisistration that have voted to protect children because of fears real or imagined. I still contend over protective or not there is a deeper feeling of protection by most people in this country, cyclists or not, for children, after all they don't have a computer site dedicated to adult cyclists protection like Megan's law, if thre is a Folder's law site please let me know. You may feel the kids should be allowed to take their chances because you are no longer involved, or at least that is how you sound, but not many of the rest of the population is. In fact in this months Bicycling Magazine starting on page 78 deals with this very issue. School districts restricting cycling because of safety concerns and the political fight to get them over turned.

    So the issue exists even if you believe it shouldn't. The federal and state government believes it is a worthwhile issue, even if you think they are foolish, The Safe Routes to School program is a national effort, Federal, State and Local, dealing with this issue.

    But thank you for pointing out some of us are overly concerned for the safety of children. Next meeting I attend I will be sure to point that out to the parents and teachers expressing that concern.

    So is your program to just let them hit the road and take their chances?
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

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    Tell you what....

    My sister has been through some horrors in her life; a brutal attack when she was a child left her diagnosed as unable to have any children in her life. As a young adult, she hooked up with (& was forced to marry) an abuser. Amazingly, though, she WAS able to have kids! But all the hell HE put her (AND the oldest kids, 4 out of 6) through gave her an 'edge'. She also had a couple miscarriages, and a few more during subsequent marriages, so she's fierce about her kids. (So am I, for that matter....)

    Tell HER she's irrational about protecting her kids, and she WILL put you in ICU; she's the most dangerous person I know, if you get on her wrong side.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
    Tell you what....

    My sister has been through some horrors in her life; a brutal attack when she was a child left her diagnosed as unable to have any children in her life. As a young adult, she hooked up with (& was forced to marry) an abuser. Amazingly, though, she WAS able to have kids! But all the hell HE put her (AND the oldest kids, 4 out of 6) through gave her an 'edge'. She also had a couple miscarriages, and a few more during subsequent marriages, so she's fierce about her kids. (So am I, for that matter....)

    Tell HER she's irrational about protecting her kids, and she WILL put you in ICU; she's the most dangerous person I know, if you get on her wrong side.

    +1 Most parents and adults are that way. Some more than others it seems. My mom was killed in a head on car accident when I was 13. A car crossed over onto the wrong side of the freeway and hit her car. She was sitting in the front seat with my half sister and her new husband. She only had time to grab my sister and toss her in the back seat. My sister lived my mom did not. It was easy to see what her last thoughts were.
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  12. #12
    Banned. folder fanatic's Avatar
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    My grandfather pushed his son out of the way of an out of control car & it's drunk driving party going idiot driver way back in 1920 (one of the first accidents & trial-in a phony "kangaroo" court-in Ohio). Why he did this, I or anyone else will never know. I do know the results was: his son survived, married, and had children. His brother & sister did the same too. Survivors of horrific situations or events run all the way back through human history. The difference is they did not need to dwell on horrific events in the past. Or hide behind children's drummed up issues. We in our family discuss what happened only when necessary-like here-but otherwise don't care to talk or write about it unless our one of us marries and the new member needs to know about it. Believe me it gets far worse. The children of my grandfather were stripped of their inheritance (the considerable money from their father's savings plus the equally considerable settlement from the drunk driver's rich family). The money was stolen-yes, you read right-by the lawyer who "sworn" to protect the children & their money, and the children were conveniently dumped into an orphanage & promptly forgotten. Now where were you all who attack one of their descendants with all that whining. Boo-hoo, obviously it took more to almost destroy my family than all you hippocrates out there. And there is probably less protection for the weaker members of our society than even in my grandfather's time-how about that to whine about at your next fruitless meetings. At least talk about something real.

    Now back to my original topic. I know all about what automobile induced damage cars can do. It does not stop at the death of an individual-especially an individual with minor children. It is not limited by age, body strength, gender, ethnicity, or race. Plus minor children do not have dependents to care for-just look at my grandfather's case. The Dutch and other Europeans (like my grandfather who originally came from there) know this. Europe is way ahead of North America as they don't play at hypocrisy and the constant bickering and whining that the US and some other countries here do. Or hide behind children for everything. I am not saying The Netherlands and Europe are perfect societies. I am saying they take care of their own (all their citizens, not just limited to children)-i.e. universal health care for all, a social support system (dole), better schooling, a multi-language populace, and of course a cycling-rather than private cars-orientated culture. The U.S. always proclaims being the "land of the free" and "protectors of the world." The good citizens of this "free" country should pay more attention their own country and clean up their acts. Enact more real (physical) tangible barriers that the strong would respect. Because America has has sadly became the land of hypocritical brutes. As the above posts equally sadly proved.
    Last edited by folder fanatic; 04-28-12 at 05:06 PM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by folder fanatic View Post
    My grandfather pushed his son out of the way of an out of control car & it's drunk driving party going idiot driver way back in 1920 (one of the first accidents & trial-in a phony "kangaroo" court-in Ohio). Why he did this, I or anyone else will never know. I do know the results was: his son survived, married, and had children. His brother & sister did the same too. Survivors of horrific situations or events run all the way back through human history. The difference is they did not need to dwell on horrific events in the past. Or hide behind children's drummed up issues. We in our family discuss what happened only when necessary-like here-but otherwise don't care to talk or write about it unless our one of us marries and the new member needs to know about it. Believe me that the children of my grandfather were stripped of their inheritance (the considerable money from their father's savings plus the equally considerable settlement from the drunk driver's rich family). The money was stolen-yes, you read right-by the lawyer and the children were conveniently dumped into an orphanage & promptly forgotten. Now where were you all who attack one of their descendants with all that whining. Boo-hoo, obviously it took more to almost destroy my family than all you hippocrates out there. And there is probably less protection for the weaker members of our society than even in my grandfather's time-how about that to whine about at your next fruitless meetings. At least talk about something real.

    Now back to my original topic. I know all about what automobile induced damage cars can do. It does not stop at the death of an individual-especially an individual with minor children. It is not limited by age, body strength, gender, ethnicity, or race. Plus minor children do not have dependents to care for-just look at my grandfather's case. The Dutch and other Europeans (like my grandfather who originally came from there) know this. Europe is way ahead of North America as they don't play at hypocrisy and the constant bickering and whining that the US and some other countries here do. I am not saying The Netherlands and Europe are perfect societies. I am saying they take care of their own-i.e. universal health care for all, a social support system (dole), better schooling, a multi-language populace, and of course a cycling-rather than private cars-orientated culture. The U.S. always proclaims being the "land of the free" and "protectors of the world." The good citizens should pay more attention their own country and clean up their acts. Enact more real (physical) tangible barriers that the strong would respect. Because America has has sadly became the land of hypocritical brutes.

    So because of your life your suggestion is to send them out onto the road to fend for themselves? Because the conditions that bother parents exist in this world and obviously where you live. None of the rest of us refer to our neighborhoods as Gangland. From the origional post I got the impression bike paths seperate from traffic were a viable option even in Denmark. Now that you are no longer tied down with children have you considered moving?
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

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    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    The main reson the Dutch have their cycling infrastructure is that they wanted to reduce traffic fatalities among children. The popular movement to build bike facilities started as a "Save the Kids" grassroots movement. Now they have a bike system that many parents feel comnfortable letting their kids use.

    I think the Dutch love their kds equaly with Americans, but maybe they have a better way of showing their love. Instead of keeping their kids under wraps, they spend time and money to allow the kids some freedom within a protective infrastructure. Maybe we should studiy their experiences and use them as a guide.


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    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    The main reson the Dutch have their cycling infrastructure is that they wanted to reduce traffic fatalities among children. The popular movement to build bike facilities started as a "Save the Kids" grassroots movement. Now they have a bike system that many parents feel comnfortable letting their kids use.

    I think the Dutch love their kds equaly with Americans, but maybe they have a better way of showing their love. Instead of keeping their kids under wraps, they spend time and money to allow the kids some freedom within a protective infrastructure. Maybe we should studiy their experiences and use them as a guide.
    And no one has a problem with that. I have a problem with the attitude tha parents need not be concerned about our children under the current traffic situation we have in the US today. I refuse to condemn parents that are relunctant to expose their kids to streets that make it unsafe to ride on. And without seperate cycling paths kids are in traffic. The op has intimated that this concern isn't relivant and I toss the fertilizer flag on that. We may disagree with the concerns and say they shouldn't be, but to dismiss those concerns is heartless. To study a better way is fine. To sacrifice children untill we get to that better way is not. To say parents have to reason to fear for the safety of their children on the streets today is a lie.

    I have no problem with looking at other solutions but I do have a problem with putting children at the front of the battle lines. It was the "suck it up and just send your kids out there" attitude I objected to. And that is what I got from Folders post to me. Quote: "I have dogs & cats. As much as I am really into them, I do not bring them around others except in the proper circumstances that pets belong or go to. So please limit the kid loving rather tiring hollow pleas to those forums & parties that cater to them." Said by someone living in a neighborhood they call Gangland.
    Last edited by Mobile 155; 04-28-12 at 08:42 PM.
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

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    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    And no one has a problem with that. I have a problem with the attitude tha parents need not be concerned about our children under the current traffic situation we have in the US today. I rrefuse to condemn parents that are relunctant to expose their kids to streets that make it unsafe to ride on. And without seperate cycling paths kids are in traffic. The op has intimated that this concern isn't relivant and I toss the fertilizer flag on that. we may disagree with the concerns and say they shouldn't be but to dismiss them is heartless. To study a better way is fine. To sacrifice children untill we get to that better way is not. To say parents have to reason to fear for the safety of their children on the streets today is a lie.
    But both sides have valid points here. Kids and adults can ride safely on many American streets, that is many more than most parents realize. My 12 year old grandson rides nicely behind me on busy city streets, and will be ready to solo in a year or two, if he wants to. Yes, I wish ha had nice bike paths to ride on, but I don't get too worried with what we have today. I really do think that parents today are much more cautious than they used to be--and conditions are probably no more dangerous than they were a generation ago. (Car accidents are up but violent crime is way down.)
    A number of things might account for this.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  17. #17
    In the right lane gerv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I think the Dutch love their kids equally with Americans, but maybe they have a better way of showing their love. Instead of keeping their kids under wraps, they spend time and money to allow the kids some freedom within a protective infrastructure. Maybe we should studiy their experiences and use them as a guide.
    I wonder if it's just that the kids are kept "under wraps". In some ways I think it's that kids are doing what their parents do, stay indoors and watch TV.

    As well, when kids do get out, their time is heavily structured... music lessons, scouts, soccor, little league... Many have little time for unstructured activities... like riding your bike up and down the street. Or... as my kids used to do... start impromptu street hockey games in the middle of residential streets (to the annoyance of passing cars.)

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    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerv View Post
    I wonder if it's just that the kids are kept "under wraps". In some ways I think it's that kids are doing what their parents do, stay indoors and watch TV.

    As well, when kids do get out, their time is heavily structured... music lessons, scouts, soccor, little league... Many have little time for unstructured activities... like riding your bike up and down the street. Or... as my kids used to do... start impromptu street hockey games in the middle of residential streets (to the annoyance of passing cars.)
    Good point. Kids do what they SEE their adults doing, rather than what their adults TELL them to do.

    So it's gotten to the point where we need billboards and PSAs telling kids that they should play for an hour a day! That's pretty absurd that you have to instruct kids to play. But I find it can be a challenge to get my 12 year old grandson to bike or walk with me. He has fun once we get going, but it isn't always easy to get him started.


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    Banned. folder fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    So because of your life your suggestion is to send them out onto the road to fend for themselves? Because the conditions that bother parents exist in this world and obviously where you live. None of the rest of us refer to our neighborhoods as Gangland. From the origional post I got the impression bike paths seperate from traffic were a viable option even in Denmark. Now that you are no longer tied down with children have you considered moving?
    No, I am suggesting some real issues (like safe cycling for all ages-even for the elderly-in the end all people who live long enough turn into. The Dutch solution which includes most of their population as they age:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o

    The Dutch are very concerned for their children. Not pay lip service as Americans are prone to. They took the other road in the 1973 Oil & Economic Crisis fork and North America chose the other branch. Europeans know and aware of aging issues far more than the US too as their population is aging rapidly.
    Last edited by folder fanatic; 04-30-12 at 01:41 PM.

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    Banned. folder fanatic's Avatar
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    Personally, I already have taken steps for me to ride in a very hostile environment such as Gangland. My bikes are adapted for this sort of environment-small wheels, stupid looking, and very sturdy-& I still have an equally valid Driver's License & Credit Cards in case I need to drive for any reason. I do look forward to trips overseas and experience cycling as it should or dreamed of being. The choices that parents do with their young is strictly up to them-as long as they follow federal and local laws. Nevertheless, I see the result with immigrant children with bulging cheeks and middles filling up at the local fast food stops surrounding my home. With Type 1 or 2 diabetes hanging over them-and even their equally clueless parents-there is really no one to guide or stop this as no one in a leadership capacity wants to take responsibility. These sad children probably will end up like their equally sad throwaway parents.

    In the end, it is a matter of group or individual choice. Be it child raising or bicycling no matter where you happen to reside:
    "......Interestingly, our two nations have a fairly similar history of cycle use up to a point, with bikes being the predominant mode of transport in both countries before World War II, yet falling into widespread decline during the 1950s and 1960s as the popularity of the car increased.......These broadly similar paths continued until the 1970s, when our transport policies diverged significantly. At this time, Dutch urban planners started to implement the measures that have created the world’s most successful cycling nation; while here in the UK, we continued to plan our towns and cities largely around the needs of motorists......"
    http://lcc.org.uk/pages/holland-in-the-1970s
    Last edited by folder fanatic; 04-30-12 at 01:51 PM.

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