Roody

It worked great for Greece and Spain. Not so great for Germany and France, who got cold feet about co-signing the notes.

KirkBeiser

I have a very similar distance from Kaohsiung to Taipei. It would take me 5 hours (probably 6 due to traffic) to drive it and LA traffic (and probably SF's) was much worse than anything I've seen in Taipei. This doesn't count stopping at a gas station for a break or to eat lunch/dinner. Typically by the end of a 5 hr drive I feel exhausted unless I'm a passenger.

Alternatively I can take the HSR in 1hr 40 mins. Instead of being exhausted from a long drive I can take a nap on the train. There is an easy transfer to an MRT system and I can get to most places in the city in 30 mins plus a short taxi ride. At this point I don't need to worry about driving in the city or expensive and inconvenient parking. I wouldn't even consider making the drive considering how good the MRT system and other public transit is in Taipei. The best thing is that I can take a 6-7am train and have the entire day in Taipei instead of having to make the trip the night before if I drove a car.

This is something that many have overlooked in this thread. First a city needs to have an excellent subway/light rail/bus/etc system to handle travelers w/o cars. I can't comment on LA's system but SF's BART seemed pretty good the couple of times that I rode it. I was able to figure out where I needed to go and it only took 5-10 mins to walk where I wanted.

This is only something that works between high population centers that are a reasonable distance apart (500 miles tops). Cross country HSR is ridiculous when compared to flying. The biggest issue to building an HSR system is getting land right of way and the ENORMOUS up front costs.

Ekdog

Nobody understands debt," opines Krugman. Well, that's especially true for folks like Mobile 155, who get their ideas from right-wing think tanks. Says the Nobel Prize winning economist:

"Perhaps most obviously, the economic 'experts' on whom much of Congress relies have been repeatedly, utterly wrong about the short-run effects of budget deficits. People who get their economic analysis from the likes of the Heritage Foundation have been waiting ever since President Obama took office for budget deficits to send interest rates soaring. Any day now!

And while they’ve been waiting, those rates have dropped to historical lows. You might think that this would make politicians question their choice of experts — that is, you might think that if you didn’t know anything about our postmodern, fact-free politics."

amdoo

I'd suggest reading This Time Is Different by Reinhart and Rogoff.

Ekdog

Before I run out to buy it, what is it about and why are you recommending it?

I-Like-To-Bike

See https://www.amazon.com/This-Time-Diff.../dp/0691152640

Ekdog

Cheers.

prathmann

You're comparing driving to a ride on HSR and in that case I'd agree. But it's going to take quite a while for HSR to be available here and before it arrives I'd expect the self-driving cars being developed by Google and various other groups to be widely available - and probably to have exclusive right to use one or more of the freeway lanes. What I question is the logic of HSR compared to that alternative - where no one is a driver who gets exhausted, but all are passengers who are free to nap, work on their laptops/tablets, read, etc.

As you indicate, for even longer distances HSR loses out to flying and if autonomous vehicles dominate for short and intermediate distances there may not be such a big niche left for HSR.

irwin7638

All these conversations about the passenger rail service in the US ignore the reason Amtrak was created.
The private railroads abandoned passenger service back in the 60's because they knew they could not compete with the Interstate Highway System. Since the highway system (initiated by Eisenhower as a national defense system)has proven so successful at subsidizing auto use, there has been precious little demand for rail service. Amtrak is another bull headed and bankrupt service the government feels is needed.
If you want to see rail service increase; turn the Interstate Highways into a toll road, charge people for actual use rather than bury the expense in the general revenues, make it pay for itself, then maybe people will use the rails more often.

Mobile 155

Pretty good book by the way. I loved the part about the "This Time is different syndrome".

But as far as from where I get my information years ago even the Magazine "The Nation" Talked about how much better off the Japanese were as a people because they saved more than Americans. They said we were foolish to live paycheck to paycheck and not put something away. I thought most here agreed that living on credit was a bad thing but now I see some don't see it that way. But as we see the financial crisis Greece in in some will blame Germany for not throwing their money into the swirling pit without seeing a plan to pay it back. And to those that say Greece is fine I wonder where you get your news? https://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/i...ece/index.html

That too seems to be a bad thing in this forum, requiring people to pay back what they borrow. But still that has nothing to do with how or why HSR is stalled in the US. In California they will need 54 billion more before they can buy the first acre of property and get the first shovel full of dirt tossed. None of that has happened in the five years since HSR was approved. The origional route to San Diego is all but dead because the Cities they would have to travel through have taken the State to court because of NIMBY. So what we could do or should do is a waste of words because no one will sell anything to the state till the state pays for it up front. So my answer is the same as it has been since the beginning. HSR is a dream that was never realized, like it or not. Over a year ago this topic was brought up and people jumped up and down that it was finally going to happen in California. Nothing has happened and nothing has changed in that year. and if the hope is that our president will push it through I would start holding your breath right now. He was going to cut the deficite in half and close Guantanamo as well and that didn't happen either. When you see tracks going down you can start the clapping but till then it is a dream only.

And if no one else should have seen the folly of going from Surplus to deficite I would have thought Elkdog would know the pitfalls. https://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/i...ain/index.html Tell me again how there is no danger in excessive spending because the NY-times isn't known for being conservitive.

Mobile 155

Really? If you can fly the red eye to New York from LA for less than rail and in no more than a few hours? I am not talking carbon foot print because no one uses that unless they want to change the topic. But you are right the highway system works better than rail in most cases plus it goes everywhere people want to go without a layover.

Ekdog

You certainly have changed your tune, Mobile. When Bush was invading countries left and right while simultaneously cutting the taxes on the lobster for lunch crowd, spending like a drunken sailor and running up the deficit, you were cheerleading. Not a word from you then about the dangers of all that spending, not even when the economy melted down on his watch.

Mobile 155

That my friend is fertilizer. I was no more in favor of deficite spending then than I am now. I am a libertarian not a Republicrat or a demoncan. I ws no more in favor of his spending 4 or 5 trillion in 8 years than Obama's 6 trillion in 4 years. So are you in favor of defaulting for ideology? Darn society and we all crash together? Because Spain and Greece has shown us the way and I would have thought you would realize what happens when any country spends itself into default. Were you cheerleading when Spain spent themselves into a hole? Do you believe going hat in had like a begger on skid row is the way to prosperity? At what point do you contend spending should stop? Or are you saying that Bush was right and we should now follow his example into skid row ourselves? would make the Communists happy if the biggest Capitalists fell flat on their face wouldn't it? The only time I cheered was when the Berlin wall came down and when Ben Ladin was killed.

KirkBeiser

self driving cars still have to deal with traffic jams and those are just going to get worse in the future imo. I also don't think self driving cars are as close as you think.

Ekdog

If you were really in favor of reducing the debt, there are measures that could be taken, like reducing the bloated "defence" budget, having the 1% pay their fair share of taxes, doing away with the tax-free status of religious organization—many of which are far more political in nature than religious anyway—and eliminating the subsidies to big oil, big coal and the highway system, to name a just few of the most obvious possibilites, but these areas never form a part of your politically motivated diatribes. It's always hand-wringing about any and all suggestions that mass transit or cycling infrastructure be built and maintained.

How about moving away from the politicking now and entering into a discussion of the pros and cons of high speed rail?

Mobile 155

I will if you will stay on topic. The question wasn't the pros and cons it was if HSR is just a dream now that it is having trouble getting funded.

wahoonc

"Pros and Cons of High Speed Rail".... IMO the US is screwed as far as passenger rail is concerned, and yes I have and do use it. Building HSR before fixing the current system is like building an airport in the middle of nowhere with no roads going to it. You can get the planes in and out just fine, but that would be the extent of it. Trains today have slower average speeds than they did 75 years ago. You have the huge problem of the track/road interface. From what I have seen in the UK trains don't have nearly the number of road crossings that exist in the US. In NC alone we have had 7 incidences involving Amtrak at crossings in the past month! Unfortunately every time one occurs the train and the schedule get screwed for 4-5 hours and it has a domino affect for the next 24-48 hours. Can't run before you walk.

I love trains, they go from city center to city center (usually) as opposed to airports that drop you off in the middle of nowhere and you have to find some sort of ground transportation to get you into the city. Very few of the large airports in the US have access to light rail or decent bus service.

Aaron

KirkBeiser

One reason building an HSR is so expensive is that a significant portion of the track is elevated eliminating the road crossing issue. Another reason that it's very unlikely to be built is that they are usually not routed on an existing rail line but rather a new route although I'm guessing they could probably make use of some of the old unused rail lines. It would still require a HUGE land grab which would piss a lot of people off.

Roody

Nevertheless, many people, including some conservatives and libertarians, believe that HSR would be good for America. Since private Capital seems unwilling to take on the risk, government investment may be the only answer. Governments are going to spend money, whether or not libertarians like it, and the question to me is, on what should the money be spent? Highways exclusively, or should our government also spend on other forms of transportation?

HSR might be easily paid for as a smallish part of the total Transportation Bill, which now goes mainly to highway travel. Another source of HSR funding could be taking away the subsidies to petroleum companies. These measures were proposed by the administration, but of course deleted by the congress.

and would you please make some effort to stay on topic, which is HSR, not the pratfalls of global capitalism. Thank you.

bhtooefr

The other thing is, in some areas (primarily rural areas), HSR could use the median, and share right-of-way with a freeway. (Won't work in many areas, but that can reduce cost over long distances.)

Or, any rail could (and in some areas (primarily cities), it does, for local rail).

You could also use a system that runs high speed on dedicated high speed rail, and can also run on existing freight rail, to use what little existing infrastructure there is, or use cheaper infrastructure where the high speed infrastructure would cost too much.

Mobile 155

I am happy to. You asked if HSR is a still a dream and I would guess you mean instead of a reality. I say currently it is a dream because there is both no will and no financing available. And I diasagree they, the gorernment, "has" to spend the money anyway. One of the last party politicians I voted for, Bill Clinton balanced the budget. You know full well from debating me on many instances I am not anti train. I am simply stating why it is still a dream. Maybe you do or maybe not that in our State there are some private concerns willing to fund the 53 to 59 billion shortfall. Both the Chinese and the Japanese are willing to fund it if they are allowed to run it. Our Governor is between a rock and a hard place because he has indicated to the voters, both before and now that he is in office that, "We cannot spend money we do not have." And he has approved HSR and cannot use the new tax money they just voted for to fund it. Because of how the bill was written. So all I have been saying is it is a dream we more than likely not live to see.

Ekdog

Are you at all interested in car-free living?

bjjoondo 

I am car free but the USA has put so much money into "highways", it seems truel silly to start thinking the we should just, dump the system and go hog wild in investing in HSR, jmho. We are MUCH larger than most countries and the cost's would be insane to create a true USA wide HRS! Pesonally, I have no problem with the road system, just would like better access for bicycles. Maybe HRS between major population areas can work but that should be the "STATES" project, not the Federal Government. USA wide HSR is a "pipe dream", a apple pie in the sky day dream, that will NEVER happen. LOL, when and IF all the oil runs out, someone will come up with a "different" fuel here in the USA to make DAMN sure that the automobile "NEVER" dies off. Sadly the CAR is KING in the USA and that will NEVER change. Personally I'd rather the governments both Federal and State spent "BILLIONS" on white paint making "Bike Lanes" right along those auto routes rather than waste it on the Golden Calf of USA wide HSR.

wahoonc

IIRC correctly that is already being done in New Mexico with the Rail Runner along some sections of I-25 between Santa Fe and Albuquerque.

I have long contended that they could take some of the interstate ROW and use it for rail, the only caveat being the grades in some areas. But most of the US is not in the mountains.

Aaron

Mobile 155

In truth? Yes or at least maybe. But not at defaulting as a nation. To be even more specific I am more anti ICE. I am interested in lower carbon footprints and learning to live within ones means. I am not interested in leaving any debt to my children and have already taken care of that years ago. What are you interested in beyound your own life?