Dahon.Steve

I used Google Maps to look at the "Wayne State" area and it's not that bad. LOL! It looks very similar to areas in Brooklyn or Newark that have been revitalized. Here I thought the entire city of Detoit was fire bombed like Europe after WW2

Interesting.

Roody

I HATE carrying lots of groceries on a bus. i would almost rather go hungry! Years ago, before I rode a bike, we lived about four miles from a Kroger's. Sometimes my son and I would walk home with a week's worth of groceries for our three person household. Whew! We were both younger and stronger then. Sometimes, if he couldn't go with me, I would walk to the store and take a cab home. Bikes would have made this ordeal easier and cheaper!

Roody

Up until a year ago I would have agreed that grocery distance is not a deal breaker. I was more concerned about commute length. Then, last August I moved to my current house. I'm now only a couple blocks from work--a five minute walk. But I'm living in a designated "food desert". This means there are no supermarkets within decent walking distance and even a bus requires a transfer to get to a market. The closest supermarkets are on a busy suburban highway that I don't enjoy biking on.

I kind of miss the commute, but I now dread grocery shopping. To be honest, I no longer HAVE to do the marketing, since other family members have taken it on, and they have a car. But it's hard for me to go pick up a few items for myself.

Roody

There are wonderful places to live in Detroit. Just a few:


https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3859875?ir=Detroit
https://www.mihomesrealestate.com/Detroit/luxury-homes/
https://youtu.be/dJkdE9YWiF4
https://www.historicindianvillage.org/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corktown,_Detroit
https://www.palmerwoods.org/

Machka 

That's what cycling is for. Hop on your bicycle, and go for a nice 100 km ride in the country on the weekends.

Only once, that I can recall, have I lived in the middle of a city some distance from "green spaces", but I only lived there during the week for about 4 months. The rest of my life I've lived well out in the middle of the country, in small towns, or on the edge of larger towns.

When I did not own a car, I lived in a city, but about 1.5 km from the edge of the city. I could be out cycling in the country in a matter of minutes. Even my 13.6 km round trip commute to work took me through a park and over the river (as well as through more built up areas).

Most new subdivisions incorporate green spaces now. From what I've seen of the cities and towns I've travelled through, it would be hard to live too far away from a green space of some sort.

Machka 

And that was my situation when I was car-free in Winnipeg.

All my services were quite close, with the exception of my chiropractor (but I could get there by bus quite easily), and my college where I took a lot of night classes (and again, easy to get to by bus).

In addition to those things, my job was also quite close to where I lived.


If I were to be completely car-free again, I would want to be able to get to all of the places I wanted to go by walking, cycling, or public transportation.

And that's the reason we own a vehicle now. I can easily walk to work (and I do), ad we can walk to the grocery store, hardware store, pharmacy, cafes, my church, the Dr, my chiropractor, library, etc. etc. In some cases it would be more of a hassle to get a bicycle out and ride ... you'd be there faster if you just walked.

But it is a very small, remote town, so if we need to get to places with some selection in shopping, or to swimming pools that operate more than about 2 months a year, or to a bicycle shop, we need to drive.

Roody

This is exactly what I experienced when I briefly lived in a small town. I could easily walk everywhere I needed to within town in less than 45 minutes. But I worked in the city 20 miles away. In most American small towns, there is no scheduled fixed route bus or train service to other towns. When my truck broke and I had to wait a few days for parts, it was a nightmare. I had to call a little shuttle bus that took me through two other small towns before finally dropping me off at a shopping mall on the outskirts of the city. From there I took a city bus the last few miles to work. I had to leave home three hours before my shift started at 3:00PM. When I got off work at 11:30PM, there was no transit whatsoever to get me home.

Like I said, a nightmare! After a few days I sold the truck for a dollar and moved back to the city. Even car people need to have a backup transportation Plan B that works. That can be difficult to arrange if you live and work in two different towns...

PlanoFuji

Again, not true. In my youth, nearly all families in my neighborhood owned one of these for grocery shopping. Not too many bikes can exceed the capacity of one of these!



Bikes are a nescessity for being car free in the sub-urbs, but they are as much of a luxury as a car in traditional urban situations.


They are called rentals, really quite easy to arrange for...

charbucks

Also, I think a distance to work is more tolerable because of two reasons:
1) You spend a lot more time at work, so the commute is a lower percentage of the total trip
2) You *have* to go to work

I live about 10 km from work and 1 from the grocery store, and I wouldn't want it reversed. When I lived even 3 km from the grocery store, I would occasionally just not go because it was "too far" when I was tired and hungry and it was cold and dark.

Finally, I like having the option to walk because it's just less stressful. We've got great bike paths downtown, but there's still an inevitable few blocks of city traffic to navigate before you can get anywhere useful. Sometimes I walk so I don't have to be as "on" at the end of a long day.

Roody

There are a couple reasons for this. One is that distances seem to be shorter in the densely populated inner city. Another is that infrastructure for walking is usually good in the city, while bike infrastructure is often poor. My mantra lately is "Walk in the city, bike in the suburbs, drive in the country."

but one exception is the grocery store that everybody has been mentioning. A lot of American inner cities just don't have supermarkets. For that reason alone, downtown residents might want to have a bike.

PlanoFuji

If you are solely talking super markets then I would agree; however, IME, markets exist in most urban areas. The type I am talking about are called 'bodegas' in my former home town.

But your comment brings another criteria for selecting a carfree neighborhood. A large (or at least significant) existing car free population. Having an existing carfree population is going to create a market for services for the car free. If you are a small minority in another community you might have the services you need, but they are less likely to remain unless there is a customer base...

wolfchild

What the heck are you talking about ??..What special or unique services do car-free people need ??...The only one thing I can think of is good public transit. I don't know of any other services that would only be used by car-free people.

Machka 

+1

When I was car-free, I didn't need any special services ... I had what I needed. And I lived in a very car-centric city.


Actually, it is amazing what services are available in many larger towns and cities.

For example, I needed to take my cats to the vet from time to time. I discovered that I could take them, one at a time, on the bus ... or all together in a taxi ... or there was another service that usually catered to the elderly. She would take the elderly to their Dr, to the pharmacy, etc., but also offered a service where she would take anyone to the vet with their pets. She was great ... even helped me in with my 3 cats and waited while the vet saw all of them, then took me home.

Another example, I burned my foot to the bone and needed the dressing changed at least once a day. On the first couple days I took the bus to my Dr, but that was way too difficult. The second time, the receptionist gave me information to get a home care nurse, and that was much better.

I also needed to get groceries during those weeks of recovery, but couldn't walk around a grocery store (I couldn't walk around my apartment!). I discovered that several grocery stores have delivery services, but then I discovered a grocery shopping service. I'd email her a list, and up to 3 stores where she could get my items, and for 15% of my bill, she'd do my shopping including carrying it up into my apartment and unpacking some of it for me.

All that and more in a city that was quite car-centric. You've just got to do a bit of work to find out what's available.

PlanoFuji

Read the thread! They need a variety of shops and services in close proximity. If the folks in those neighborhoods predominantly use cars to go to megamarts those neighborhood shops and services close down.

squegeeboo

I still stand by Amazon prime and a grocery store. If you've got those two things, you can live car free.

Although liquor store/bike shop/local pub would be my next three wants.

Machka 

In many cities, "megamarts" live right next to/among the neighbourhood shops, conveniently located in or next to the suburbs where people live ... easily accessed by public transportation.

PlanoFuji

According to Roody, megamarts don't exist in many urban centers...


And suburbs require cycling... not many are in walking distance. Car free isn't the same as 'I ride bikes'

If you think transit can get urban people to sub urb shopping easily you haven't used it in most places in the U.S. There are only a handful of systems in the U.S. that reach that level of utility...

In short, if you want dense shopping and services, there have to be a demand for dense shopping and other services. That largely means an existing car free (or at least car light) population...

PlanoFuji

Clearly you could live car free with those needs met; however, you are hardly representative of the population...

squegeeboo

Did anyone link this yet?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._without_a_car

I'm suprisd by how high some cities are. I would have never guessed Rochester is at 25%, even with how poor parts of the city are. To bad we got rid of our subway.

Machka 

Here in Australia, and in Canada, and in places we've visited in Europe, dense shopping areas are tucked right in among residential areas. I've seen US cities set up that way too.

Where I lived car-free for many years, I lived on the outskirts of town, but I could walk 1 km past a strip mall containing several small neighbourhood shops to a smaller outlet of a "megamart" in a little shopping centre that contains several small neighbourhood shops, surrounded by a residential area.

Or I could easily catch the bus about 4-5 km in either direction to where larger "big box" stores were located, surrounded like rocks among gravel with smaller neighbourhood stores, and of course, more residential areas. I could walk to and from those shopping areas, and did exactly that several times. And yet that city did not have a particularly car-free or car-light population.

That's just one of many examples I could provide.

PlanoFuji

Yep, you are absolutely right, people can live car free anywhere. There are no obstacles to doing so, anywhere in the world...

Machka 

Does the pendulum never settle in the middle with you?

I never said what you're assuming I said. I am simply disagreeing with your comment in an earlier post ...

People can live quite happily car-free in a place with a very small car-free population. Living where there is a large (or significant) existing car free population is not a criteria.

And I'll repeat wolfchild's question, and add to it: What special or unique services do car-free people need ... that don't already exist in a non-car-free environment?

I've provided examples of all sorts of special, unique services that exist in a city in general, which don't depend on the residents of that city being car-free or car-light, but which may benefit those who are.

PlanoFuji

Clearly you don't recognize sarcasm. I am tired of arguing with you on a subject that simply doesn't interest me...

And I'll repeat, the list has been stated on this thread repeatedly.

In summary, car free require services in closer proximity than those with car transportation available. And I never claimed that someone couldn't be the ONLY car-free person in the neighborhood. I said, that having a large population of car-free would be BENEFICIAL. In other words as the thread suggest, something to look for in selecting the RIGHT car free neighborhood... I should think the reasons are obvious, but clearly they aren't... Things like demand for close by services and shops. Ability to interact with people in the same situation and pick up tips. Easier to learn the ropes, etc...


Now, I am tired of this ridiculous thread...

charbucks

I think one of the major ones is sidewalks, in addition to neighbourhood stores.

There are suburbs that don't have sidewalks - they assume that everyone drives a car in and out of the community. Similarly, there may not be any kind of retail in the community, requiring you to take a car or a once-per-hour bus to get to a grocery store. It might be okay to bike in such places, but if the neighbours aren't accustomed to non-car users on the road, then it could be unpleasant. Not impossible to do, for sure, but not nice.

I think Canada is generally somewhat better than the US. I'd never heard of cities without sidewalks until I had friends live in Houston and most of our suburbs (even in car-centric Calgary) at least have a strip with a grocery store, neighbourhood pub, etc.

daihard 

Agreed. Seattle has a relatively usable public transport system (at least by the American standards), but it pales in comparison with what countries like Japan and the Netherlands have.

Good news for me is that Seattle is taking steps to make a pedestrian- and bicycle-friendly city out of themselves. They are extending the light rail transit system, developing living / shopping areas around the hub transit centres, and building more bike lanes and promenades. I believe it's the right direction for the future.