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Living Car Free Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here.

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Old 01-02-14, 06:27 PM   #101
cafzali
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The question is, "Why have we built cities that cannot be walked in?" And tailgating is not allowed at the Super Bowl. Go through the drive thru on your way to the game, or purchase an $18 hot dog at the stadium.
As was explained by the OP, the Meadowlands aren't in a city. It's basically a swamp that was filled in for certain commercial developments and has major highways running all through it. Many, many sports stadiums of all types aren't located in cities themselves. Only relatively recently did sports stadiums start coming back to city centers, and even then it's mostly baseball due to the attractiveness of smaller parks. Football lends itself to much larger parks due to a short home schedule.
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Old 01-02-14, 11:54 PM   #102
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As was explained by the OP, the Meadowlands aren't in a city. It's basically a swamp that was filled in for certain commercial developments and has major highways running all through it. Many, many sports stadiums of all types aren't located in cities themselves. Only relatively recently did sports stadiums start coming back to city centers, and even then it's mostly baseball due to the attractiveness of smaller parks. Football lends itself to much larger parks due to a short home schedule.
How many miles is the stadium west from midtown Manhattan, as the crow flies? How many miles further to the east would the crow have to fly before he would hit rural farmland? I'm thinking the stadium is pretty close to the geographic center of greater metro New York.
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Old 01-03-14, 12:13 AM   #103
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When the Super Bowl was held in Detroit, many--maybe most--ticket holders walked from their hotels to Ford Field. Or took the People Mover from more remote downtown locations. Even Americans will often choose to walk when the route is safe, direct, and reasonably pleasant.
News Flash: the Super Bowl this year is NOT in Detroit; it is in the Meadowlands, NJ where there is NO safe, direct, and reasonably pleasant route to walk to the game site. It is a safe bet that nobody attending this year's game cares how easy it was to walk to Ford Field.

There will not be one unsold mega$$$ ticket because a few simple living people get bent out of shape because of lack of bicycling/walking access to an event that they wouldn't attend for free or on a bet.
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Old 01-03-14, 12:49 AM   #104
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News Flash: the Super Bowl this year is NOT in Detroit; it is in the Meadowlands, NJ where there is NO safe, direct, and reasonably pleasant route to walk to the game site. It is a safe bet that nobody attending this year's game cares how easy it was to walk to Ford Field.

There will not be one unsold mega$$$ ticket because a few simple living people get bent out of shape because of lack of bicycling/walking access to an event that they wouldn't attend for free or on a bet.
I actually wasn't addressing my remarks to Super Bowl attendees. If I wanted to discuss issues with ticket holders, I would have shared on the Super Bowl forum. In fact, I was communicating with people on a carfree forum--people who possibly do give a rat's ass about walking conditions in various parts of the world.
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Old 01-03-14, 06:41 AM   #105
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I'm thinking the stadium is pretty close to the geographic center of greater metro New York.
You would think with MetLife stadium being close to New York City, it would have been developed like Brooklyn or the Bronx. However, he history of this swamp was quite different as it was never developed. In fact, it was used as a garbage dump for decades even though they stopped, the junk remains there! The entire area is an industrial wasteland full of trucks and railroad tracks.
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Old 01-03-14, 08:07 AM   #106
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You would think with MetLife stadium being close to New York City, it would have been developed like Brooklyn or the Bronx. However, he history of this swamp was quite different as it was never developed. In fact, it was used as a garbage dump for decades even though they stopped, the junk remains there! The entire area is an industrial wasteland full of trucks and railroad tracks.
I remember the years of controversy before they even built the stadium. It was and remains a stupid location, and I think a lot of people wish it would just sink into the landfill so they could get on with building in a better location. Hopefully with better connectivity so us simple people won't get all bent out of shape.
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Old 01-03-14, 10:57 AM   #107
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I remember the years of controversy before they even built the stadium. It was and remains a stupid location, and I think a lot of people wish it would just sink into the landfill so they could get on with building in a better location. Hopefully with better connectivity so us simple people won't get all bent out of shape.
Not likely, the simple folk would likely take issue with a new stadium being built on good real estate used for allegedly primitive barbaric sporting events, to be watched by lazy well off people who can afford season tickets, munching junk food; not to mention whining about the associated giant parking lots that such a stadium requires if the builders expect to fill the seats with the fans of the sport.
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Old 01-03-14, 01:02 PM   #108
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Not likely, the simple folk would likely take issue with a new stadium being built on good real estate used for allegedly primitive barbaric sporting events, to be watched by lazy well off people who can afford season tickets, munching junk food; not to mention whining about the associated giant parking lots that such a stadium requires if the builders expect to fill the seats with the fans of the sport.
Granted football stadiums tend to seat twice as many people as baseball stadiums, but why do new football stadiums need giant parking lots while new baseball stadiums, like those in SF and Baltimore, don't. Are football fans drawn from a more sedentary subset of the population than the fans of other sports, or do they just have a greater sense of entitlement in terms of their desire for convenient parking?
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Old 01-03-14, 01:29 PM   #109
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Football stadiums probably need bigger parking lots to accommodate 'tailgate' barbeque parties before games, a tradition I don't think is associated with baseball or other spectator sports.
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Old 01-03-14, 02:06 PM   #110
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A couple of months ago, New Jersey's govenor Chris Christy could have rolled to the game, but he seems to have lost some weight.
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Old 01-03-14, 02:39 PM   #111
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How many miles is the stadium west from midtown Manhattan, as the crow flies? How many miles further to the east would the crow have to fly before he would hit rural farmland? I'm thinking the stadium is pretty close to the geographic center of greater metro New York.
In all honesty, it doesn't matter how far it is from either farmland or the center of Manhattan if there's no way aside from mass transit and driving to get there. Organizers have made it clear they want people to take mass transit because of the fact that there are limited arteries leading to and from the stadium. It's probably no more than 10 miles from the west side of Manhattan, but that's irrelevant because you'd be nuts to try and walk there.

I know you're concerned about issues that car-free advocates consider relevant, but getting to mass sporting events by walking probably isn't high on the list of car-free folks. If they don't want to drive, they'll take mass transit. Quite simply, you could not have developed the Meadowlands like a traditional area, chiefly because very few people would want to actually live in the area. It's high traffic and in the summer, the area gives off a smell that reminds you that you're basically near a swamp.
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Old 01-03-14, 03:31 PM   #112
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In all honesty, it doesn't matter how far it is from either farmland or the center of Manhattan if there's no way aside from mass transit and driving to get there. Organizers have made it clear they want people to take mass transit because of the fact that there are limited arteries leading to and from the stadium. It's probably no more than 10 miles from the west side of Manhattan, but that's irrelevant because you'd be nuts to try and walk there.

I know you're concerned about issues that car-free advocates consider relevant, but getting to mass sporting events by walking probably isn't high on the list of car-free folks. If they don't want to drive, they'll take mass transit. Quite simply, you could not have developed the Meadowlands like a traditional area, chiefly because very few people would want to actually live in the area. It's high traffic and in the summer, the area gives off a smell that reminds you that you're basically near a swamp.
Something as important as a football stadium should be located where people can get to it in a timely and pleasant manner. People shouldn't have to emit tons of carbon dioxide and other pollutants while idling their cars in parking lot traffic. There are many places in the urban and suburban wastelands where it would "be nuts to try and walk there". That's exactly what we need to change! And all indications are that it will change soon. Meadowlands will soon be abandoned, like the Silver Dome in Pontiac Mi, and replaced with a mote accessible stadium. And people who drive will be just as happy as "carfree folks".

(Seriously, did you ever hear anybody say they ENJOY the drive to Meadowlands and the parking situation once they arrived?)
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Old 01-03-14, 04:35 PM   #113
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Something as important as a football stadium should be located where people can get to it in a timely and pleasant manner. People shouldn't have to emit tons of carbon dioxide and other pollutants while idling their cars in parking lot traffic. There are many places in the urban and suburban wastelands where it would "be nuts to try and walk there". That's exactly what we need to change! And all indications are that it will change soon. Meadowlands will soon be abandoned, like the Silver Dome in Pontiac Mi, and replaced with a mote accessible stadium. And people who drive will be just as happy as "carfree folks".

(Seriously, did you ever hear anybody say they ENJOY the drive to Meadowlands and the parking situation once they arrived?)
You're in Michigan so maybe you're unaware, but the Giants and Jets are only in their second season in a new multi-billion dollar stadium in the Meadowlands next to the old one, so it's not about to be "soon abandoned." One of the plans of now ex-NYC Mayor Mike Bloomberg way back in his first term was a stadium for the Giants and Jets on the far West Side of Manhattan, but it was resoundingly rejected by the public because they didn't want a football stadium there. The land has since been rezoned and redeveloped for mixed residential and commercial use and the area is Manhattan's next hot spot. The "7" subway line is being extended to the Far West Side to support this development, although the idea was originally floated as a way for people to get to the proposed stadium, which never came to fruition. The city paid for the subway extension, but couldn't persuade the public on a new football stadium.

There are lots of places that people don't enjoy driving, but they realize that if they drive versus taking mass transit, they're in for a traffic jam. I'm very pro mass transit, but carfree folks have to realize what people will and won't do. Football is a much different sport than baseball and basketball in that stadiums are large and people like tailgaiting before games. And new football stadiums are being developed in suburban areas, not city cores. Football hasn't been played in NYC proper for decades. I wish NYC had been successful in its suit to force the Jets and Giants from using NY in their names. They're as much NY as the Eagles are NJ, even though Philly is minutes from NJ.
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Old 01-03-14, 08:51 PM   #114
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I'm very pro mass transit, but carfree folks have to realize what people will and won't do.
I don't believe that car free people are any more obtuse than most other people; the same cannot necessarily be said for ardent anti-motorist ideologues.
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Old 01-03-14, 10:00 PM   #115
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NYC wanted to win the olympics to be able to make an olympic stadium to later be used for the NYJ/NYG home games.

you mentioned before about the west side stadium (where the javets center is).. its actually a area with a lot of space that can fit a stadium and some parking lots. the other plan was to make the olympic/nfl stadium in flushing on top of the old shea stadium.

either way both stadiums would be super accessible by public transport/foot/bike. the flushing queens location probably has the best of both worlds with large parking lots/the 7 train/easy access by foot from corona park (which is still beautiful) and access from major highway easily.

i think soldier field, where the bears play, is a NFL stadium that is in the city, chicago, and also blends in nicely.

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Old 01-03-14, 11:06 PM   #116
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I think it's well established that when people can walk to the stadium, they will walk to the stadium. Even a wealthy person, who is staying in a four star hotel, where parking alone costs $50-100 a day, will not want to drive a couple miles to the stadium, wait at the parking entrance for 30 minutes, pay another $50 for parking, hunt for a parking spot, and end up walking 10 minutes across the parking lot anyways.
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Old 01-03-14, 11:40 PM   #117
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I think it's well established that when people can walk to the stadium, they will walk to the stadium. Even a wealthy person, who is staying in a four star hotel, where parking alone costs $50-100 a day, will not want to drive a couple miles to the stadium, wait at the parking entrance for 30 minutes, pay another $50 for parking, hunt for a parking spot, and end up walking 10 minutes across the parking lot anyways.
That person would most likely take a cab; and I doubt very seriously if too many SuperBowl tickets holders are likely to walk a couple miles to anywhere, least of all to a game at the Meadowlands or at Yankee Stadium.
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Old 01-04-14, 12:02 AM   #118
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That person would most likely take a cab; and I doubt very seriously if too many SuperBowl tickets holders are likely to walk a couple miles to anywhere, least of all to a game at the Meadowlands or at Yankee Stadium.
I don't know about all that, but like I said before, (and you of course scoffed at) when the game was at Ford Field, many out of town ticket holders walked from their hotels through the beautiful streets of downtown Detroit. Those who were staying at suburban hotels, many of them drove to cheaper and easier parking on the downtown fringes and took the People Mover to the game. Even rich people like to save money!

Many people say that Americans don't like to walk. I think it's true only because in most cases we don't have a decent place to walk. Like it said in one of the articles (I think the one you posted), New Yorkers like to walk. And New York is a lovely city to walk in. Wealthy people in New York walk. Jackie O. used to walk to work. Bloomberg--one of the ten wealthiest people in the world--takes the subway and walks. The article says that people in New Jersey hate to walk, but most parts of New Jersey, especially around meadowlands, are lousy places to walk.

all I'm trying to say is that people everywhere are pretty much the same. Their behavior in large part is determined by the environment they live in, and especially by the infrastructure they have to deal with. The best way to change the behavior is to change the environment. Put in some sidewalks, shade trees and benches. Make the destinations closer together by eliminating some of the parking lots. Then you will see people walking more because it's enjoyable, cheaper, cleaner and more convenient.
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Old 01-05-14, 09:35 PM   #119
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Not likely, the simple folk would likely take issue with a new stadium being built on good real estate used for allegedly primitive barbaric sporting events, to be watched by lazy well off people who can afford season tickets, munching junk food; not to mention whining about the associated giant parking lots that such a stadium requires if the builders expect to fill the seats with the fans of the sport.
Do you remember when MetLife stadium was supposed to be built on the West Side of Manhattan by the rail yards? Well there are ALOT of deep pockets living in that area that made sure it never happened. There was a 100 milion pool of money to make sure it was never going to be built.
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Old 01-05-14, 10:40 PM   #120
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Do you remember when MetLife stadium was supposed to be built on the West Side of Manhattan by the rail yards? Well there are ALOT of deep pockets living in that area that made sure it never happened. There was a 100 milion pool of money to make sure it was never going to be built.
Ain't those West Siders somethin'?

Everybody else would welcome a sixty thousand plus seat football stadium built in their neighborhood just so they could walk to an NFL game if they had a yen for it.
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Old 01-06-14, 02:42 PM   #121
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I wonder whether Rob Ford will be there. He is a fan of Canadian Football, and maybe he likes the NFL too. He could be the halftime entertainment, especially if he's drunk and on crack on a bicycle.
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Old 01-06-14, 02:55 PM   #122
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I wonder whether Rob Ford will be there. He is a fan of Canadian Football, and maybe he likes the NFL too. He could be the halftime entertainment, especially if he's drunk and on crack on a bicycle.
I'd pay to see him twerk with Miley Cyrus, but I wouldn't want to see his wardrobe malfunction.
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Old 01-06-14, 03:51 PM   #123
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Seriously, why DO you wanna walk to the Superbowl?

Put your bike on a stand and watch it on TV while you pedal. That's what television was invented for.
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Old 01-06-14, 06:31 PM   #124
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Seriously, why DO you wanna walk to the Superbowl?

Put your bike on a stand and watch it on TV while you pedal. That's what television was invented for.
My family's lore has it that cousin Philo Farnsworth, the inventor of the television, actually envisioned it as a way to bring things like performances of the New York Philharmonic to the boonies. He was so bothered by what his invention was used for that he never did allow one into his own house.
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Old 01-06-14, 06:51 PM   #125
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Awesome! I see my Paul Brown Stadium is no. #4 on the list. A pleasant six mile bike ride from my house with bike parking just about next door. And the Great American Ballpark is right next door to that, too, if I want to check out a Reds game.

Just have the next Super Bowl here. I can even rent you my apartment for one grand a week during the game!

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