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  1. #26
    Pedaled too far. Artkansas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post
    If you don't own a car and you don't regularly use one for personal use then you're car free to me.
    What if you own a car and never drive it, but use a bicycle, walking and public transport for all your transportation?
    "He who serves all, best serves himself" Jack London

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjforrestal View Post
    I don't care if you are on a unicycle, as long as you're not using a motor to get places you get props from me. We're here to support each other. Share ideas, and motivate one another to actually keep doing it.

  2. #27
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artkansas View Post
    What if you own a car and never drive it, but use a bicycle, walking and public transport for all your transportation?
    You're not carfree, in my opinion, because you still have the worry and responsibility of car ownership. You have to do some kind of work to make sure that the car is secure and in running condition. And your car is using up at least 200 square feet of space where nothing else can live and grow.

    This doesn't mean you're a terrible person. It just means you're not carfree. But you are incredibly carlight.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  3. #28
    Pedaled too far. Artkansas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    You're not carfree, in my opinion, because you still have the worry and responsibility of car ownership. You have to do some kind of work to make sure that the car is secure and in running condition. And your car is using up at least 200 square feet of space where nothing else can live and grow.
    I feel that the critical point is whether you are using a car, truck, motorcycle or scooter. I see car-free as more of a life-style.
    "He who serves all, best serves himself" Jack London

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjforrestal View Post
    I don't care if you are on a unicycle, as long as you're not using a motor to get places you get props from me. We're here to support each other. Share ideas, and motivate one another to actually keep doing it.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    You're not carfree, in my opinion, because you still have the worry and responsibility of car ownership. You have to do some kind of work to make sure that the car is secure and in running condition. And your car is using up at least 200 square feet of space where nothing else can live and grow.

    This doesn't mean you're a terrible person. It just means you're not carfree. But you are incredibly carlight.
    One may own a car but not take any effort to maintain it in working order. If it is stored on private property, it needn't even be registered and can even be a money-maker as opposed to something that has costs associated with it. For example, the company that I purchase my homeowner's insurance through gives a multi-policy discount that is larger than the minimum cost of insuring a stored car, with the added benefit of cheap daily insurance when I find a need/desire for a rental. (It costs me $15 per year to "insure", comprehensive only, a nonworking vehicle. I receive a $75 per year multi-policy discount. When I rent a car, I pay $1.50/day to turn on a full auto insurance policy, with the understanding that I won't annoy my agent by doing this with any frequency.)

    One still gives over the space that the car takes up, but there's no reason one can't use the bed of a pick-up for something like potted plants. I'm going to explore with my agent just how much of the thing I have to keep in order to insure it. Maybe all I need is the VIN tag off the dash.

  5. #30
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    I'm certainly willing to stipulate that people who own cars but don't use them are "carfree" within the working definition on this forum. The point, as I see it, is not to come up with a definition that I like or you like, but just to have a definition that we agree on so we don't hAve to always explain ourselves or quibble about mere words.

    I doubt if I personally would be considered carfree by anybody. I don't own a car, but somebody in my household does. And I regularly "make use" of that car, although I never drive it.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  6. #31
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I'm certainly willing to stipulate that people who own cars but don't use them are "carfree" within the working definition on this forum. The point, as I see it, is not to come up with a definition that I like or you like, but just to have a definition that we agree on so we don't hAve to always explain ourselves or quibble about mere words.

    Quote Originally Posted by GodsBassist View Post
    I think 'car free' is as vague as 'vegetarian' used to be. Lacto-ovo? Pescetarian? Vegan? Flexitarian? Jain Vegetarian? Fruitarianism?

    Some people think that car free should be no combustion engine use at all? Do taxis fit the definition? Car share? Spouse owns a car? Access to neighbor's car for emergencies? Living in a school bus?


    To be honest though, I think 95% of the people on this forum accept and understand that car free is probably a fairly flexible term, and don't really care. The remaining few are just trying to stir the pot or claim that everybody's a hypocrite by trying to twist the definition to whatever best suits their cynicism at the time.
    +1 to GodsBassist


    Oh, and much of the time, I'm a "semi-vegetarian".

  7. #32
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    The problem is simple and the OP is not the first to point it out. When a new person that may indeed see car free as an absolute reads the title on the forum they get:
    Forum: Living Car Free Did you give up your car for good? Is your bike and public transportation the only way you travel from point A to point B? If your only mode of transportation is your bike, discuss your car-free lifestyle here.

    We have talked about this before, If being car free involves A: Giving up your car for good, and B: Your bike and public Transportation is the Only way you get from Point A to point B. Or C: if your bike is your only mode of transportation then you have a car-free lifestyle.

    You could modify the working definition in the title to be more inclusive if the goal is to get more people talking about using a Bike for transportation. You could also make a sticky explaining how many times and for what reason you can use a car, yours or not, owned or rented or borrowed and call yourself car free or call anyone who rides in a car, rents a car, drives a car once, or pick number, a day, week month or a year car light.

    It is just that so often this forum tries to hit a moving target when defining car free. In this thread alone we have had definitions that do not fit the title at the door. But like the OP indicated it is a "Bike" Forum so it would seem we would be far more interested in how people have used cycling to modify their transportation habits than we would about walkers, runners pilots, cross country skiers, or whatever. They should have a forum somewhere you would think?
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  8. #33
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    People can be car-free when they bike to and from work and leave their cars in their garages. Or make a utility trip to the supermarket. You can own a motor vehicle, and still live car-free for parts of the day or week or month.

    The title of this forum is exclusionary. It implies that you are not permitted to be a participant unless you are "pure". Most fundamentalist forums are like this.

    Fortunately, the main antagonist to those who don't have the "pure" lifestyle has outed himself and is now just like most of the rest of us... using a motor vehicle when it's convenient. Which amuses me, because his assertiveness about the intent of this forum appears to be much less fundamentalist than it was when I have raised this subject several times in the past.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  9. #34
    Senior Member GodsBassist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    Oh, and much of the time, I'm a "semi-vegetarian".
    Me too! I learned just this year that I guess it's called 'flexitarian,' but I like 'sometimes-itarian.' Like Thursdays. Never eat meat on Thursdays.

    I'm a zipcar member, too, so sometimes-itarianism is leaking into my car free lifestyle, but I'm ok with it, because I don't drive on Tuesdays. Ever. It's principle.

  10. #35
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    People can be car-free when they bike to and from work and leave their cars in their garages. Or make a utility trip to the supermarket. You can own a motor vehicle, and still live car-free for parts of the day or week or month.

    The title of this forum is exclusionary. It implies that you are not permitted to be a participant unless you are "pure". Most fundamentalist forums are like this.

    Fortunately, the main antagonist to those who don't have the "pure" lifestyle has outed himself and is now just like most of the rest of us... using a motor vehicle when it's convenient. Which amuses me, because his assertiveness about the intent of this forum appears to be much less fundamentalist than it was when I have raised this subject several times in the past.
    Still is not the simple solution simply to change the description or the title on the door? I didn't know anything about the forum when I first visited here but the title made me think there were some "Pure" car free members and everyone else was car light or working to be car free. I never believed I could be one or aspired to be one. Then it seemed you could rent a car and be car free, drive a family member's car and be car free, take a taxi and be car free or as you suggested be car free for any part of the day. It seems as if some have tried very hard to place car light in a different status based on some rule that has never been fully posted.

    I agree there is absolutely no reason not to be more inclusive to get more people involved. I have no problem defining myself as car light based on only using my vehicle once or twice a week. This year my mileage for both bike and Truck was about 12000 miles. 6800 on the bike. Still should they simply change the description of the forum?
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  11. #36
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodsBassist View Post
    To be honest though, I think 95% of the people on this forum accept and understand that car free is probably a fairly flexible term, and don't really care. The remaining few are just trying to stir the pot or claim that everybody's a hypocrite by trying to twist the definition to whatever best suits their cynicism at the time.
    Well put. I agree.
    Smug, car-bashing cyclist and public transport user.

  12. #37
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    There's no reason one can't use the bed of a pick-up for something like potted plants.
    What a great use for a car! Turn it into a planter!

    208074_10151280481915185_443386427_n.jpg
    Smug, car-bashing cyclist and public transport user.

  13. #38
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    Still should they simply change the description of the forum?
    Yes ... I think they should.

    Change it from ...

    Did you give up your car for good? Is your bike and public transportation the only way you travel from point A to point B? If your only mode of transportation is your bike, discuss your car-free lifestyle here.



    To something a little bit more like ...

    Want to haul groceries, beer, maybe even your kids? You don't have to live car free to put your bike to use as a workhorse. Here's the place to share and learn about the bicycle as a utility vehicle.



  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    Still is not the simple solution simply to change the description or the title on the door? I didn't know anything about the forum when I first visited here but the title made me think there were some "Pure" car free members and everyone else was car light or working to be car free. I never believed I could be one or aspired to be one. Then it seemed you could rent a car and be car free, drive a family member's car and be car free, take a taxi and be car free or as you suggested be car free for any part of the day. It seems as if some have tried very hard to place car light in a different status based on some rule that has never been fully posted.

    I agree there is absolutely no reason not to be more inclusive to get more people involved. I have no problem defining myself as car light based on only using my vehicle once or twice a week. This year my mileage for both bike and Truck was about 12000 miles. 6800 on the bike. Still should they simply change the description of the forum?
    The way I see it, there is room for everyone's reasonable opinion here. Living Car Free is an admirable objective, but as has been pointed out, very few of the population in the Western world have the opportunities to style their lives to be even remotely car free.

    What this forum can do, in a world where the cost of living increases substantially every year, and commercial interests are the fore, is to give people a clue as to how they can reduce those costs -- financial and environmental -- without having to be "different" and "fundamentalist" about it.

    There are people who post in the commuting and utility bike forum who are as committed to using their cars less as many who post here. But they have little interest in joining the discussions here because they haven't up to now, fitted the required "membership profile".

    Cycling Lifestyle, to me, opens up a whole new gamut of ideas including the concepts of living car-free, but expanding out in to the lifestyle choices that reflect what I have said above. After all, many of the subjects here have done that, anyway.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  15. #40
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    The way I see it, there is room for everyone's reasonable opinion here. Living Car Free is an admirable objective, but as has been pointed out, very few of the population in the Western world have the opportunities to style their lives to be even remotely car free.

    What this forum can do, in a world where the cost of living increases substantially every year, and commercial interests are the fore, is to give people a clue as to how they can reduce those costs -- financial and environmental -- without having to be "different" and "fundamentalist" about it.

    There are people who post in the commuting and utility bike forum who are as committed to using their cars less as many who post here. But they have little interest in joining the discussions here because they haven't up to now, fitted the required "membership profile".

    Cycling Lifestyle, to me, opens up a whole new gamut of ideas including the concepts of living car-free, but expanding out in to the lifestyle choices that reflect what I have said above. After all, many of the subjects here have done that, anyway.
    Sounds like you are saying Car free should be folded into the "cycling Lifestyle" Rather than a lifestyle all by itself? More of a pro alternative rather than a anti automotive.
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  16. #41
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    People can be car-free when they bike to and from work and leave their cars in their garages. Or make a utility trip to the supermarket. You can own a motor vehicle, and still live car-free for parts of the day or week or month.

    The title of this forum is exclusionary. It implies that you are not permitted to be a participant unless you are "pure". Most fundamentalist forums are like this.

    Fortunately, the main antagonist to those who don't have the "pure" lifestyle has outed himself and is now just like most of the rest of us... using a motor vehicle when it's convenient. Which amuses me, because his assertiveness about the intent of this forum appears to be much less fundamentalist than it was when I have raised this subject several times in the past.
    That's pure bull crap, if you're talking about me. I defy you to go through my posts and find one instance when I gave anybody a hard time about being a car owner or user. I have posted literally hundreds of times that I think many people living in our society have to own cars. I make it clear over and over that I blame this on our poor infrastructure, not on any individuals who own cars. I have made it very clear that I don't like cars in the city, and I look forward to the day when they will be gone from the city. But never, never, never have I insulted anybody or said that they are not "pure".

    Also I have never said I was carfree myself, and I don't need to "outed" because I have always been open and honest about my car status. I was carfree when I lived alone, but became carlight when my son and his family, with their one car, moved in with me. This circumstance has obviously changed my lifestyle, but has in no way changed my attitude or opinions about cars and the desirability of being carfree when possible.
    Last edited by Roody; 01-03-14 at 11:47 PM.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  17. #42
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    The way I see it, there is room for everyone's reasonable opinion here. Living Car Free is an admirable objective, but as has been pointed out, very few of the population in the Western world have the opportunities to style their lives to be even remotely car free.

    What this forum can do, in a world where the cost of living increases substantially every year, and commercial interests are the fore, is to give people a clue as to how they can reduce those costs -- financial and environmental -- without having to be "different" and "fundamentalist" about it.

    There are people who post in the commuting and utility bike forum who are as committed to using their cars less as many who post here. But they have little interest in joining the discussions here because they haven't up to now, fitted the required "membership profile".

    Cycling Lifestyle, to me, opens up a whole new gamut of ideas including the concepts of living car-free, but expanding out in to the lifestyle choices that reflect what I have said above. After all, many of the subjects here have done that, anyway.
    When you leave out the insults, I basically agree with you. I have floated the idea of changing the title of the forum to something pro-cycling, but nobody seemed interested. I have wanted to change the blurb since the day this forum started, but the admins never followed through on it. I would like to see it say something about using cars less, and relying more on bikes and other alternatives to cars. For one thing, I think it would be more inclusive, for another thing I think it would take some of the wind out out of the trolls' sails.

    As I've posted before over the years, I'd like to see something along these lines in the BF index page:

    Living With Bikes subforum
    For those interested in using their bikes for everyday activities and relying less on cars. Also includes discussions of the roles of bikes, infrastructure, and cars in our modern society.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    Yes ... I think they should.

    Change it from ...

    Did you give up your car for good? Is your bike and public transportation the only way you travel from point A to point B? If your only mode of transportation is your bike, discuss your car-free lifestyle here.



    To something a little bit more like ...

    Want to haul groceries, beer, maybe even your kids? You don't have to live car free to put your bike to use as a workhorse. Here's the place to share and learn about the bicycle as a utility vehicle.


    This is one of the reasons I never went into law; I don't like to read the fine print. I had never read the blurb below the LCF title until you pointed it out here. You, Rowan and others are correct, IMO, that the description should be changed to something pro bike use rather than simply anti-car. (Although at times I wonder if I'm more pro-bike or anti-car.)

    I think such a change would not only help bring in more participation, but it would remove the chip on a few shoulders regarding purity and likely lead to better quality discussions.

  19. #44
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    Yes ... I think they should.

    Change it from ...

    Did you give up your car for good? Is your bike and public transportation the only way you travel from point A to point B? If your only mode of transportation is your bike, discuss your car-free lifestyle here.



    To something a little bit more like ...

    Want to haul groceries, beer, maybe even your kids? You don't have to live car free to put your bike to use as a workhorse. Here's the place to share and learn about the bicycle as a utility vehicle.


    How would that be different from the Utility Bike forum?


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  20. #45
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    When you leave out the insults, I basically agree with you. I have floated the idea of changing the title of the forum to something pro-cycling, but nobody seemed interested. I have wanted to change the blurb since the day this forum started, but the admins never followed through on it. I would like to see it say something about using cars less, and relying more on bikes and other alternatives to cars. For one thing, I think it would be more inclusive, for another thing I think it would take some of the wind out out of the trolls' sails.

    As I've posted before over the years, I'd like to see something along these lines in the BF index page:

    Living With Bikes subforum
    For those interested in using their bikes for everyday activities and relying less on cars. Also includes discussions of the roles of bikes, infrastructure, and cars in our modern society.
    And what response have you received from the Moderators? Can it be changed and is there something others can do to help change it?
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  21. #46
    Senior Member Astrozombie's Avatar
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    Wooow wooow woow....isn't car short for "carriage"?? So can't you say a Bike is a form of a "car"?
    Assume nothing; Question everything

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    Sounds like you are saying Car free should be folded into the "cycling Lifestyle" Rather than a lifestyle all by itself? More of a pro alternative rather than a anti automotive.
    Yes, a pro alternative rather than an anti-automotive one. The simple fact is that we all rely to one extent or another on motor vehicles (cars) when it suits us. They could be taxis, or friends' vehicles.

    I am interested in "alternative" lifestyle options. It's one (minor) reason that attracted me to cycling in the first place.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    How would that be different from the Utility Bike forum?
    It's not meant to be. Take a good hard long look at what Living Car Free means, and it means using a bicycle for utility purposes. I always thought the Utility Cycling forum should have been incorporated into this one. As it is, that forum has hardly any participation, and many of the bikes and functions mentioned there have been discussed here.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  24. #49
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    How would that be different from the Utility Bike forum?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    It's not meant to be. Take a good hard long look at what Living Car Free means, and it means using a bicycle for utility purposes. I always thought the Utility Cycling forum should have been incorporated into this one. As it is, that forum has hardly any participation, and many of the bikes and functions mentioned there have been discussed here.
    Exactly, I could never understand why the Living Car Free was split into Living Car Free and Utility ... boggled the mind, given that the two forums are one in the same idea.

    I think the two forums should be reunited into one again!

    As for a description ...

    The Utility Cycling wording is a good start for a description, but I might add something about work and recreation ... using the bicycle for hauling things, but also for commuting to work, getting the groceries, and going to the beach.

    I might also include something about making use of public transportation, walking (and ... roller blading, using those scooter things, or any other human-powered method of transportation) as well as cycling.

    Pro-cycling, pro transportation alternatives, pro lifestyle alternatives ... rather than anti-automobile.


    The title Living Car Free is fine, but if it were going to change, maybe Living Car Light might be more accurate.

  25. #50
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    I do know the historical reasons for why Utility broke off from LCF, because I was peripherally involved in the process. It was because some people did not want to be exposed to what they called "political" discussions on LCF. They wanted a subforum that dealt only with questions about bikes, gear, and riding techniques. I said that a Utility forum would be unpopular, and I was right. Those topics get boring pretty quickly for frequent users of BF. It's really hard to have a lively ongoing discussion about handlebar baskets, although the information is valuable if you actually want to purchase a basket.

    Ironically, LCF itself was formed by Koffee Brown in order to get "political" discussions out of the Commuting forum. The current mods aren't aware of this fact, so they always want to lock "political" threads or (worse yet) banish them to P&R.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

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