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  1. #226
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    If these people were given the choice, I'm willing to bet almost all of them would prefer to have the freedom to live in the country and the privacy of a car.

    They're poor so who cares eh? Nice attitude.

  2. #227
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    The whole point of the thread is that if people DO talk about their (environmental or political) motivation, it provokes a backlash from someone like you who immediately misrepresents them as smug, preachy, nags, or whatever, with no real evidence except your own preconceptions.
    This thread among many others indicate that the "backlash" correctly represents the efforts of a few LCF posters to make this list a platform for advocating their political and social theories and beliefs. Living car free and bicycling issues are a sideshow or irrelevant to these ranting "advocacy" efforts.

  3. #228
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHBR View Post
    If these people were given the choice, I'm willing to bet almost all of them would prefer to have the freedom to live in the country and the privacy of a car.
    Really? And here I'm thinking that if they had the choice, most of them would want to stay in the city, and live in better housing. After all, there is a huge and voluntary migration into cities going on all around the world right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by SHBR View Post
    They're poor so who cares eh? Nice attitude.
    Wow you read my mind, that's exactly my attitude about poor people.

  4. #229
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    This thread among many others indicate that the "backlash" correctly represents the efforts of a few LCF posters to make this list a platform for advocating their political and social theories and beliefs.
    Yet in the previous post you invited people to talk about that:
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Talk about your own motivation to be car free all you want,
    Talk about the bad parent. It's like "here Johnny, have a cookie. Hey! Who said you could have a cookie!"

  5. #230
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    /end thread

    I'm guessing more than a few people here have not lived outside of the western world for very long.

    For most people they have no other choice, and statistically most people stay in the same wealth class they were born into, and very few things are voluntary.

    See what happens when you fail to pay taxes, as an example.

  6. #231
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    After all, there is a huge and voluntary migration into cities going on all around the world right now.
    Especially in China.
    Smug, bicycle-riding, car-bashing, public transport-using zealot.

  7. #232
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    Migration into cities that have insufficient housing and employment for the rural refugees. They come to the cities not because there is great opportunity, but because there is fractionally more than the near total absence of opportunity in the economically depressed outer areas from which they come. This has many potentially troubling consequences for the cities, but the causes for these migrations should concern us all. The long term impacts of this change may include a lot of unforeseen pitfalls.

  8. #233
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    The whole point of the thread is that if people DO talk about their (environmental or political) motivation, it provokes a backlash from someone like you who immediately misrepresents them as smug, preachy, nags, or whatever, with no real evidence except your own preconceptions.
    +1. I think you would get backlash at the auto show than you get here.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  9. #234
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    Especially in China.
    Even more so in Africa and South America. Worldwide, most people want to live in cities. This has been known for thousands of years. As soon as agriculture is able to feed excess laborers, the cities begin to grow. This was as true in Babylonia and Thebes as it is in Kinshasa or Seoul today.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  10. #235
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    Those are people working in a specific industry that had a vested interest in the issue. Of course they will react to a threat to their livelihood. But how do you think their sentiments spread to the public at large? I bet it is through lobbyists and PR firms and other public opinion molders who plot their strategies in smoky backrooms.

    It would be a pretty naive tree hugger who thinks the way to protect trees is to convince loggers not to log. The idea is to get the message out to the population at large, and influence public perception and public policy.

    Tree spiking is one of the worst ideas ever. No mainstream environmental group has ever endorsed it. But that is one of the propaganda techniques people use against advocacy - lump any reasonable advocates in with the extremists, to make it seem as if they are all extremists.

    Are you sure about that? I'll have see if I can find any contrary evidence to your assertion.

    No, of course not. Taking the bait from some trolls trying to wind you up is not the way to win hearts and minds. You were smart enough not to fall into that trap.
    Another thing about people voluntarily moving, you mentioned to cities, but the government says more people are leaving the north east and moving to the south west than ever before. From a more practical source Check out Atlas Van Lines site. http://www.atlasvanlines.com/migration-patterns/

    An no matter how anyone tried to sugar coat it Tree Huger is a social derogatory term. Almost everyone has a story of some workers losing a construction job because of a Kangaroo rat, or some other useless reason. But there is a face that people see when they think of Tree Hugers and that face is ELF and to a degree Green Peace. And it is a true backlash because you may or may not remember the French sunk the Rainbow Warrior. There was no real out rage because everyone seems to feel they are strange people to start with. I donated to get a new ship built but only because of why the old one was sunk not because I support their cause. I think that is a lost cause. ( I suppose anyway) But in reality most people seem to see environmental issues as anti working man issues. Stop a Dam from being built and you keep good paying jobs away from the area. Stop the Keystone Pipeline and you hurt the economy. And it does no good to say the oil will not get used because if the US doesn't get it the Chinese will. And how does the idea spread in Washing state? It spreads from Coffee cup to coffee cup and glass of Oly to Oly or Rainer Ale. That is where I first heard the term in a local pub from local people living in Seattle.
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  11. #236
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    An no matter how anyone tried to sugar coat it Tree Huger is a social derogatory term. Almost everyone has a story of some workers losing a construction job because of a Kangaroo rat, or some other useless reason. But there is a face that people see when they think of Tree Hugers and that face is ELF and to a degree Green Peace. And it is a true backlash because you may or may not remember the French sunk the Rainbow Warrior. There was no real out rage because everyone seems to feel they are strange people to start with. I donated to get a new ship built but only because of why the old one was sunk not because I support their cause. I think that is a lost cause. ( I suppose anyway) But in reality most people seem to see environmental issues as anti working man issues. Stop a Dam from being built and you keep good paying jobs away from the area. Stop the Keystone Pipeline and you hurt the economy. And it does no good to say the oil will not get used because if the US doesn't get it the Chinese will. And how does the idea spread in Washing state? It spreads from Coffee cup to coffee cup and glass of Oly to Oly or Rainer Ale. That is where I first heard the term in a local pub from local people living in Seattle.
    Argumentum ad populum

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    "Ad populum" redirects here. For the Catholic liturgical term, see Versus populum.
    In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so."
    This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity,argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, and bandwagon fallacy, and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), andconsensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea.

    Smug, bicycle-riding, car-bashing, public transport-using zealot.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    I didn't say you were bizarre. Go back and read my post.

    What does seem very strange to me is that anyone who argues that we need to reduce the number of cars on the roads because of the role they play in hastening catastrophic climate change or because of the huge numbers of people they kill is accused of being a proselytizer, a fundamentalist, a finger-wagger or a smug hypocrite. We need to stop this name-calling and get back to discussing the issues.
    "...he does it for reasons that are in his (best) self-interest and that he has nothing against our car-centric transit system and nothing in common with us tree huggers. HOW BIZARRE !" (emphasis mine)

    Oops.

  13. #238
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakhotason View Post
    "...he does it for reasons that are in his (best) self-interest and that he has nothing against our car-centric transit system and nothing in common with us tree huggers. HOW BIZARRE !" (emphasis mine)

    Oops.
    Okay, here are my exact words:

    You've hit the nail on the head! Almost anyone admitting to being CF or CL around here feel they must immediatley add a disclaimer to their comments making it clear that they do it for selfish reasons only and that they have nothing against our car-centric transit system and nothing in common with us tree huggers. How bizarre! Meanwhile, the truth, sober as a judge, just won't go away:


    Pine Island Glacier's retreat 'irreversible'

    As you can see, "bizarre" does not refer to you or to anyone in particular, but rather to the preceding sentence and to the fact that mentioning that one cycles for the benefit of the commons in any way is frowned upon by many here. I do believe that that situation is most unusual. Some would go so far as to prohibit any such comments.
    Smug, bicycle-riding, car-bashing, public transport-using zealot.

  14. #239
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    My original reason for being carfree--in 1973--was because of the environment, and specifically fossil fuels and global warming. For the last 40 years, that's been my primary motivation for being carfree. Of course I enjoy riding bikes and walking. I love the exercise and I love saving a lot of money. But the main reason has been the environment.

    So I have to laugh when I hear that people won't do anything for environmental reasons, including drive much less. I am living proof that people can do this. If I can do it, anybody can.

    Yes, environmentalism is unpopular among people who make their living by cutting down old growth forests, or people who build pipelines. But it remains one of the most popular movements overall. People who are reasonably intelligent can understand that pollution hurts their planet down to their local community.

    Nobody likes to see polar bears drowning or Yellowstone Park burning down. People will usually do the right thing when they know what the right thing is. The truth always comes out eventually, no matter how much money greedy millionaires like the Kochs spend on spreading lies.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    Okay, here are my exact words:

    You've hit the nail on the head! Almost anyone admitting to being CF or CL around here feel they must immediatley add a disclaimer to their comments making it clear that they do it for selfish reasons only and that they have nothing against our car-centric transit system and nothing in common with us tree huggers. How bizarre! Meanwhile, the truth, sober as a judge, just won't go away:


    Pine Island Glacier's retreat 'irreversible'

    As you can see, "bizarre" does not refer to you or to anyone in particular, but rather to the preceding sentence and to the fact that mentioning that one cycles for the benefit of the commons in any way is frowned upon by many here. I do believe that that situation is most unusual. Some would go so far as to prohibit any such comments.
    Bull****

  16. #241
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakhotason View Post
    Bull****
    Is cursing supposed to win the argument? You can do better!


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  17. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Is cursing supposed to win the argument? You can do better!
    One can do no better than to be exact in word and succinct in meaning.

  18. #243
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    most people seem to see environmental issues as anti working man issues.
    This is the crux of the debate. We all agree this is happening The question is: how does that meme get perpetuated? I suspect it gets a lot of subliminal help from industry and their PR strategists who work to plant the idea in everybody's head.

  19. #244
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    Another thing about people voluntarily moving, you mentioned to cities, but the government says more people are leaving the north east and moving to the south west than ever before.
    I remember addressing that in another thread. Are those people moving to the country, or to southern and western cities?

  20. #245
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    Yet in the previous post you invited people to talk about that:
    Talk about the bad parent. It's like "here Johnny, have a cookie. Hey! Who said you could have a cookie!"
    You (and a few others) seem unable (or unwilling) to grasp the distinction/concept between a poster providing the rationale for his own car free behavior, and a poster repeatedly posting about the nation(s)'s various political and social ills and what "we" all must do in order to save ourselves.

  21. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    You (and a few others) seem unable (or unwilling) to grasp the distinction/concept between a poster providing the rationale for his own car free behavior, and a poster repeatedly posting about the nation(s)'s various political and social ills and what "we" all must do in order to save ourselves.
    It is their raison d'etre hence it will never end. It is futile. All is lost.

  22. #247
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakhotason View Post
    It is their raison d'etre hence it will never end. It is futile. All is lost.
    I'd agree as far as this list is concerned. It has become a swirling (cess)poll of political and social posturing by a few posters who cannot resist interjecting P&R "discussion" preaching points into as many threads as the mods will allow, rather than anything concerned with posters' living car free or with a reduced reliance on privately owned motorized vehicles.

  23. #248
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    I'd agree as far as this list is concerned. It has become a swirling (cess)poll of political and social posturing by a few posters who cannot resist interjecting P&R "discussion" preaching points into as many threads as the mods will allow, rather than anything concerned with posters' living car free or with a reduced reliance on privately owned motorized vehicles.
    Perhaps you could lead the way by starting a few threads of the type you purport to be interested in. I've noticed you gravitate to the very types of conversations you claim to detest and avoid the "nuts and bolts" threads like the plague. Bellyaching about the so-called political nature of some of our posts seems to be your only stock and store.
    Last edited by Ekdog; 02-06-14 at 12:25 PM.
    Smug, bicycle-riding, car-bashing, public transport-using zealot.

  24. #249
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    Perhaps you could lead the way by starting a few threads of the type you purport to be interested in. I've noticed you gravitate to the very types of conversations you claim to detest and avoid the "nuts and bolts" threads like the plague.
    Though the owners of the site may object, I find blank electrons preferable to politically charged electrons on this site. I don't think there are many topics on car free living that aren't intelligently covered already in the commuter and utility lists with less politically charged detours.

    The few topics that are of particular concern to those concerned with eliminating/reducing the use of a motor vehicle have already been addressed. The problem on this list is that the answers provided are almost always are written from the perspective of individuals with no family responsibilities, and with no empathy (or a lack of concern) for those that do have other responsibilities than just getting themselves back and forth to work and the grocery store. When the limitations of such responses are pointed out by myself or others, the list gets a barrage of posts from the usual suspects preaching how the current political/social structure needs to be overhauled so that this or that or every car free person can thrive in a candyland of a future utopia.

  25. #250
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    You (and a few others) seem unable (or unwilling) to grasp the distinction/concept between a poster providing the rationale for his own car free behavior, and a poster repeatedly posting about the nation(s)'s various political and social ills and what "we" all must do in order to save ourselves.
    I can grasp the distinction but I don't see why I need to. Why is it so offensive to you if people express political opinions generally relevant to the topic of car-free living? Why so insistent on limiting the discussion to whatever you think the bounds should be? Ironically you're doing the same that you accuse me or them of. You could easily restrict yourself to only posting about your personal decisions and choices if you want, and you could start threads about that, but instead, it seems that the majority of your posts that I have seen are intended to mock and ridicule and reprimand other people, with the implication that they should change their behaviour. Why not live up to your own admonitions quoted above and try not to say what "we" must all do?
    Last edited by cooker; 02-06-14 at 02:16 PM.

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