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  1. #376
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    I think anyone reading this thread can tell quite easily why there is backlash against car free advocacy. At least within the microcosm of this forum. The vocal proponents are argumentative, dismissive of other ideas, and all around difficult to converse with. If you want to be an advocate for anything you cannot behave like that. You have to be able to convince people to agree with you without force. An in your face attitude will always have the opposite effect. If you are so abrasive in your argument (and it shouldn't even be an argument) that people begin to dislike you as a person you will never sway them to your side and will instead create staunch opposition (backlash).

  2. #377
    Senior Member muzpuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    In 15 pages, I don't think we ever mentioned a very real cause of backlash from motorists:

    "You get in my way...you slow me down...I'm scared I will run into you...you're making congestion worse with your bike lanes."

    In my opinion (just my opinion) the problems with cyclists is other cyclists ........... and what I mean by that is they do not give out IQ tests before letting someone loose on their bike ...........so every single person on these forums could follow every single rule of the road (stop at lights and signs, hand signals , reflectors, clothes, close to curb etc etc etc ) and all it takes one idiot weaving in and out of traffic using peoples cars as handrests blowing stop signs and lights to cause us to get lumped in with them ......... and is it a backlash against being car free ....... no its a backlash against trying to bully others to accept YOUR choice in life .....most people don't care ........if you want to wear celery on top of your head for the rest of your life because you want to be a celery stock fine go ahead .......but don't stop everyone you see and demand they accept you..........most people don't care either way........................................................ the squeaky wheel gets the most grease but is also the most annoying
    Global Warming Is A Hoax

  3. #378
    Member rogertc1's Avatar
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    Actually it all comes down to the haves and have nots in the world. Some people can not afford an automobile and can only afford a bicycle. Even the most costly of bicycles shadow the price of a car. Some can afford to only live in an apartment and not their own house even with an small acreage.

  4. #379
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    I think anyone reading this thread can tell quite easily why there is backlash against car free advocacy. At least within the microcosm of this forum. The vocal proponents are argumentative, dismissive of other ideas, and all around difficult to converse with. If you want to be an advocate for anything you cannot behave like that. You have to be able to convince people to agree with you without force. An in your face attitude will always have the opposite effect. If you are so abrasive in your argument (and it shouldn't even be an argument) that people begin to dislike you as a person you will never sway them to your side and will instead create staunch opposition (backlash).
    That's interesting. I see you the same way you see me: Arrogant, forceful, rude, off-putting. That's normal, because we disagree on an issue that we both feel passionate about. (Also, the Internet seems to exaggerate negative perceptions.)

    You say it shouldn't even be an argument. Why is that? We disagree, so why would we not argue? I'm sure you would love for me to always agree with you, or at least pretend to agree. But that isn't going to happen, either here or in real life. If you say something I think is wrong, I'm not going to agree with you.

    However, I will ignore somebody if I think they're an azzhat (like I'm ignoring two other people on this thread). But if I do argue with you, it means that I think you are interesting and challenging.

    its interesting that two people have only one interaction with each other. That single interaction happens to be an argument. So they both conclude the other one is "argumentative" as a personality trait. That's not very logical if you stop to think about it.

    I'm sure that in real life you're a lovely person, and so am I.
    Last edited by Roody; 02-13-14 at 08:34 AM.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  5. #380
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    That's interesting. I see you the same way you see me: Arrogant, forceful, rude, off-putting. That's normal, because we disagree on an issue that we both feel passionate about. (Also, the Internet seems to exaggerate negative perceptions.)

    You say it shouldn't even be an argument. Why is that? We disagree, so why would we not argue? I'm sure you would love for me to always agree with you, or at least pretend to agree. But that isn't going to happen, either here or in real life. If you say something I think is wrong, I'm not going to agree with you.

    However, I will ignore you if I think you're an azzhat (like I'm ignoring two other people on this thread). But if I do argue with you, it means that I think you are interesting and challenging.

    I'm sure that in real life you're a lovely person, and so am I.
    The internet does exaggerate negative perceptions. I'm sure we could share a beer and get along just fine in person.

    I say it shouldn't be an argument because when it comes to advocacy (which is the topic at hand) you can't allow it to become an argument or you will never sway the other person. People don't respond to that. They won't change their minds when pressed in that manner. You have to bring things to their attention in a way that they come to the same conclusions as you. That is advocacy done right.

  6. #381
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    The internet does exaggerate negative perceptions. I'm sure we could share a beer and get along just fine in person.

    I say it shouldn't be an argument because when it comes to advocacy (which is the topic at hand) you can't allow it to become an argument or you will never sway the other person. People don't respond to that. They won't change their minds when pressed in that manner. You have to bring things to their attention in a way that they come to the same conclusions as you. That is advocacy done right.
    Sometimes advocacy is very forceful. Look at the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement. Many years of being "in your face" were needed to make progress. Being "nice" did nothing.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  7. #382
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Sometimes advocacy is very forceful. Look at the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement. Many years of being "in your face" were needed to make progress. Being "nice" did nothing.
    I don't know. I would compare the results of the Black Panther movement against the results of Martin Luther King, JR and see which stacked up better.

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogertc1 View Post
    Actually it all comes down to the haves and have nots in the world. Some people can not afford an automobile and can only afford a bicycle. Even the most costly of bicycles shadow the price of a car. Some can afford to only live in an apartment and not their own house even with an small acreage.
    Its not quite that simple. There are many people who own cheap 2nd hand cars that live in low income housing. I personally know a few cyclists that are independently wealthy, that own a fleet of bicycles that collectively cost more than the average car.

    Cars and bicycles are not the enemy, its a lack of communication and cooperation between the humans that use these machines.

    Humanity has an increasing sense of entitlement that is not sustainable.

  9. #384
    Senior Member muzpuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Sometimes advocacy is very forceful. Look at the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement. Many years of being "in your face" were needed to make progress. Being "nice" did nothing.
    "in your face" behavior from a average 150 lb shaved legged spandex wearing cyclists in road cleats ....might not even scare a senior citizen with a large purse
    Global Warming Is A Hoax

  10. #385
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    I don't know. I would compare the results of the Black Panther movement against the results of Martin Luther King, JR and see which stacked up better.
    MLK was extremely forceful. That's the whole basis of his philosophy of non-violent action: unrelenting force that is never violent. The Black Panthers had a self-defensive philosophy: leave us alone or we will fight you. MLK, the more aggressive leader, the one who was always in their faces, was more effective.

    Who is winning the global warming fight? Clearly, the oil companies with their lies and dirty tricks. Clearly not the environmental advocates with their friendly persuasion approach. These graphs will show you who is winning:

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/1615/environment.aspx#1


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  11. #386
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    MLK was extremely forceful. That's the whole basis of his philosophy of non-violent action: unrelenting force that is never violent. The Black Panthers had a self-defensive philosophy: leave us alone or we will fight you. MLK, the more aggressive leader, was more effective.

    Who is winning the global warming fight? Clearly, the oil companies with their lies and dirty tricks. Clearly not the environmental advocates with their friendly persuasion approach. These graphs will show you who is winning:

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/1615/environment.aspx#1

    You have to change that to climate change fight. The world hasn't been warming for 17 years. All the environmentalists changed their talking points to climate change over global warming years ago when it was clear the world wasn't warming.

  12. #387
    Senior Member muzpuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    You have to change that to climate change fight. The world hasn't been warming for 17 years. All the environmentalists changed their talking points to climate change over global warming years ago when it was clear the world wasn't warming.
    HUH and I thought I was the only one saying this
    Global Warming Is A Hoax

  13. #388
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
    But I don't think discussing the environmental benefits of biking in lieu of driving is out of place here.
    Don't worry, that is also something we often debate here. Debating about what we're supposed to debate is very meta.

  14. #389
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    Is that an actual quote from somewhere ... or something from your imagination?
    It's real. I hear it all the time.

  15. #390
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    I think anyone reading this thread can tell quite easily why there is backlash against car free advocacy. At least within the microcosm of this forum. The vocal proponents are argumentative, dismissive of other ideas, and all around difficult to converse with. If you want to be an advocate for anything you cannot behave like that. You have to be able to convince people to agree with you without force. An in your face attitude will always have the opposite effect. If you are so abrasive in your argument (and it shouldn't even be an argument) that people begin to dislike you as a person you will never sway them to your side and will instead create staunch opposition (backlash).
    I don't see it that way - you said yourself if someone talks to you about car-free-living, or not owning a TV or the environment, your first instinct is to tell them to shut up or you need to shut the conversation down immediately. From this side of the fence (and I don't address this personally to you, because you've been very forthcoming in this thread) that kind of pre-emptive hostility - "just shut up already" - is widespread.

  16. #391
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogertc1 View Post
    Actually it all comes down to the haves and have nots in the world. Some people can not afford an automobile and can only afford a bicycle. Even the most costly of bicycles shadow the price of a car. Some can afford to only live in an apartment and not their own house even with an small acreage.
    I can afford anything I want. I own a 2001 Volvo only because my late mother stopped driving in her 80s and wanted my daughter to have it, and I own about 5 bikes.
    Last edited by cooker; 02-13-14 at 10:12 AM.

  17. #392
    Senior Member muzpuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    I can afford anything I want. I own a 2001 Volvo only because my late mother stopped driving in her 80s and wanted my daughter to have it, and I own about 5 bikes.

    So ......good for you.....do you want a cookie (that was a joke)
    Last edited by muzpuf; 02-13-14 at 10:11 AM. Reason: was not done typing
    Global Warming Is A Hoax

  18. #393
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    I don't see it that way - you said yourself if someone talks to you about car-free-living, or not owning a TV or the environment, your first instinct is to tell them to shut up or you need to shut the conversation down immediately. From this side of the fence (and I don't address this personally to you, because you've been very forthcoming in this thread) that kind of pre-emptive hostility - "just shut up already" - is widespread.
    ...because of poorly done advocacy.

  19. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzpuf View Post
    So ......good for you.....do you want a cookie (that was a joke)
    If he simply assumes that people who are car-free only do so out of necessity and poverty, he is misunderstanding this whole thread.

  20. #395
    Senior Member muzpuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    If he simply assumes that people who are car-free only do so out of necessity and poverty, he is misunderstanding this whole thread.
    if someone wants to be car free good for them ........why do THEY think they need to promote their choice to the whole world ..............................

    "(roody) Sometimes advocacy is very forceful. Look at the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement. Many years of being "in your face" were needed to make progress. Being "nice" did nothing.

    THAT STATEMENT IS WHY THERE IS BACKLASH
    Global Warming Is A Hoax

  21. #396
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    ...because of poorly done advocacy.
    Maybe. Or maybe you have some discomforts about the topics - for example maybe deep down you feel that perhaps you waste too much time watching TV, and should be doing something more productive with your time, and feel a little twinge of embarrassment or guilt when confronted with someone else's better example, so you don't like it when they talk about their own situation of not owning a TV, and want them to shut up, even though they aren't directly criticizing you.

  22. #397
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    Maybe. Or maybe you have some discomforts about the topics - for example maybe deep down you feel that perhaps you waste too much time watching TV, and should be doing something more productive with your time, and feel a little twinge of embarrassment or guilt when confronted with someone else's better example, so you don't like it when they talk about their own situation of not owning a TV, and want them to shut up, even though they aren't directly criticizing you.
    Nope. That is most definitely not it.

    You missed the entire point of the no TV having people line of thought. It's not that they live a better life or anything like that. It's the smug self important need of theirs to even bring up the fact that they, unlike you, don't even own a television. That plays very well along the same lines of how [some of] the car free feel the need to tell everyone they meet, in their smug self important manner, that they don't even own a car. You would never experience this if the first thought in your head after them saying so was "Me too!".

    Perhaps the person with the discomfort of a topic is you since you swung the direction of the conversation away from what I was talking about to something that I discussed several pages and many days ago?

  23. #398
    Member rogertc1's Avatar
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    LOL... great story,

  24. #399
    Senior Member muzpuf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ekdog Local Legislator: No One Should Ever Ride Bikes In Suffolk County


    Quote Originally Posted by rogertc1 View Post
    LOL... great story,
    LETS USE THE WHOLE QUOTE --------------------------> no one who lives in our hamlet or for that matter in Suffolk County should ever ride a bicycle or motorcycle,”
    Global Warming Is A Hoax

  25. #400
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    You have to change that to climate change fight. The world hasn't been warming for 17 years. All the environmentalists changed their talking points to climate change over global warming years ago when it was clear the world wasn't warming.
    This is a big fat lie from the oil and coal companies. The world continues to warm at an ever faster rate. You fell for the lie. Ha ha!!

    The fact that some environmentalists started talking about climate change instead of global warming is a perfect example of how being "nice" can dilute and weaken your message, and make it easier for the liars to get away with their lies.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

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