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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by spdntrxi View Post
    you think Detroit died by the car ?
    I guess I don't; Detroit prospered because of the car industry, and declined because of the decline of that industry which didn't respond to consumer's wishes, and foriegn competition which did a better job of making cars people wanted.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironwood View Post
    ..... Detroit prospered because of the car industry, and declined because of the decline of that industry which didn't respond to consumer's wishes, and foriegn competition which did a better job of making cars people wanted.
    Or... Detroit prospered because of the fur trade industry... and then later... due to manufacturing (in wasn't JUST cars). But... Detroit failed as it lost it's competitive value. Even the MILLIONS already spent of cycling infrastructure and the MILLIONS being spent in 2014 will NOT add value to Mo Town.

    They have GREAT cycling infrastructure in Detroit (or... so I've read) and a person can pick-up a 3 bedroom ranch for less than 10 grand. Cycling opportunities and cheap housing are two great selling points for a car free living environment. So why aren't cyclist like ourselves clamoring to Detroit to enjoy the bright lights, culture sights, great dining, and other great big city amenities?

  3. #53
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Posting about the personal benefits of choosing to live without a car and/or getting about by bicycle could be considered positive advocacy for car free living.

    The same can not be said for posting ad nauseam anti-motoring/anti-motorist rants, as well as posts that assume that car free living and bicycling are joined at the hip with asceticism, New Age day dreaming, and spacy economic/political theories.

  4. #54
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
    I have noticed that when car-free living is promoted as a solution to social-economic problems, there is a tendency for backlash. At first, this backlash seemed as simple as any other form of backlash against criticism of status-quo. The roots of this kind of backlash would be as simple as, "I drive therefore anyone doing otherwise is implying that my choice to drive isn't the best choice and therefore denigrating and threatening me."

    Now, however, I have started to think that the cause of backlash could go even deeper, having to do with the mainstreaming of motor-transit itself.
    There are very active lobby groups like the American Dream Coalition who don't want car-free thinking to take root, and work hard to marginalize and ridicule and villainize it.

  5. #55
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    There are very active lobby groups like the American Dream coalition who don't want car-free thinking to take route and work hard to marginalize and ridicule and villainize it.
    It shouldn't be too hard for any rational person or group to marginalize and ridicule "car-free thinking" (as it is presented in the emotional anti-motorist bashing and spacy social/political day dreaming so often posted on LCF). Especially in a public forum where no Mods are at hand to protect delicate sensitivities from feeling insulted or slighted.

  6. #56
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Now... in todays new decentralized world... cities are losing their value.
    Cars aren't needed anymore either, if you can work from home and order everything online.

  7. #57
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
    It is literally impossible to go back and change these things now, so ownership of private vehicles and subsidization of roads are necessary to keep the economy humming and keep peoples investments in their homes from plummeting to nothing. This is not a value judgement, it's just the way things are.
    So I have to pay because you want to live in the boonies? It's just the way things are? LOL Rather a self-serving argument, don't you think?
    Last edited by cooker; 01-13-14 at 02:43 PM.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    Cars aren't needed anymore either, if you can work from home and order everything online.
    Or live in the factory dormitory where that stuff you order gets made.

  9. #59
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by no1mad View Post
    Perhaps the reason why there is now a larger percentage living in urban areas is simply due to the fact that the population has increased- and habitats have to be crammed together/stacked or lose agricultural lands for housing.

    And bio-fuels might just replace the fossil fuels yet- algae can be turned into oil in an hour. http://www.cnbc.com/id/101287355
    Do you see the paradox? We can either eat or have fuel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    It seems to me that the earliest lamps used whale and/or olive oil. But... experimentation with biofuels are part of the trend I mentioned earlier.
    The economy was heavily dependent on whale oil until it was depleted, and there was a crisis, and an urgent and rapid transition to petroleum. We're not going back to biofuels. There's no way agriculture can both feed the world and fuel it, and certainly not with modern farming techniques that are highly fuel dependent.
    Last edited by cooker; 01-13-14 at 02:42 PM.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    So I have to pay because you want to live in the boonies? It's just the way things are? LOL
    You're paying people to live in the burbs? I live in a city now.... but if you're so loaded that you are willing to send checks I might be willing to move. How many people do you actually pay to live in the boonies?

    I am a little frustrated with the federal government now supporting failed cities with my (and millions of others) tax dollars. It's nice that someone like you is trying to off-set the mistreatment.

    I don't see the need to be a city dweller... to live car free. Actually rural areas most often cram all the things needed for modern life in the small town. Generally a gas station, hardware, grocery, restaurants, church's, post office, library, community center, doctor, fire station/EMT... and so forth... all within easy walking distance.

    Rural living might be a better choice for those who desire simpler living.
    Last edited by Dave Cutter; 01-13-14 at 02:51 PM.

  11. #61
    Senior Member rebel1916's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    So I have to pay because you want to live in the boonies? It's just the way things are? LOL Rather a self-serving argument, don't you think?

    Yeppers!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    You're paying people to live in the burbs? I live in a city now.... but if you're so loaded that you are willing to send checks I might be willing to move. How many people do you actually pay to live in the boonies?

    I am a little frustrated with the federal government now supporting failed cities with my (and millions of others) tax dollars. It's nice that someone like you is trying to off-set the mistreatment.

    I don't see the need to be a city dweller... to live car free. Actually rural areas most often cram all the things needed for modern life in the small town. Generally a gas station, hardware, grocery, restaurants, church's, post office, library, community center, doctor, fire station/EMT... and so forth... all within easy walking distance.

    Rural living might be a better choice for those who desire simpler living.
    Suburban dwellers are subsidized through roads. Midsized city dwellers are subsidized through educational aid. Depressed rural areas are subsidized both ways. Again, it's just the way things are.

  12. #62
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    .... We're not going back to biofuels. There's no way agriculture can both feed the world and fuel it, and certainly not with modern farming techniques that are highly fuel dependent.
    I agree completely! If by "we're" you mean the bulk of society. The ancient technologies of wind, sun, plant, animal, and human forms of power still work very well. Technophobia... will always influence a portion of society. And some will always be looking for ways to retreat. Some believe: As technologies become increasingly complex and difficult to understand, people are more likely to harbor anxieties relating to their use of modern technologies.

  13. #63
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
    Suburban dwellers are subsidized through roads. Midsized city dwellers are subsidized through educational aid. Depressed rural areas are subsidized both ways. Again, it's just the way things are.
    Oh no, no, no.... I think you believe that... but those ideas are false. Rural areas have been subsidizing cities for a few years now.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Oh no, no, no.... I think you believe that... but those ideas are false. Rural areas have been subsidizing cities for a few years now.
    I don't doubt it (I don't know it either, I'm just ignorant), but I also know all of us are subsidizing farming. I'm not worried about it. Subsidizing each other is incredibly useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    Why shouldn't those of us who are enthusiastic about it discuss the merits of this way of life, especially in a sub-forum that was set up precisely for that purpose? Is the car-centric lifestyle beyond reproach for some reason? Is this your only sacred cow or are there other topics we're supposed to keep quiet about so as not to offend your sensibilities?
    I think that this forum was set up for sharing both the merits and challenges of getting around without using a personal auto. I am not questioning your enthusiasm for the LCF lifestyle, but I do question the animosity towards those that don't embrace it.

  16. #66
    Senior Member rebel1916's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Oh no, no, no.... I think you believe that... but those ideas are false. Rural areas have been subsidizing cities for a few years now.
    That is genuinely funny. At least here in NY.

  17. #67
    Senior Member rebel1916's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by memebag View Post
    I also know all of us are subsidizing farming. I'm not worried about it. Subsidizing each other is incredibly useful.
    This

  18. #68
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GetOuttaMyWay View Post
    I am not questioning your enthusiasm for the LCF lifestyle, but I do question the animosity towards those that don't embrace it.
    Then why did your say:

    Quote Originally Posted by GetOuttaMyWay View Post
    I think LCF isn't something to advocate- either do it or don't. Live it without preaching about it and let people make up their own minds on whether LCF is something that will work for them in the here and now.
    ?

    Thanks just the same, but I think I'll go right on advocating (or "preaching", as you call it), whether you like it or not. If you disagree with something I say, please tell me why I'm wrong, but don't try to silence me.
    Smug, bicycle-riding, car-bashing, public transport-using zealot.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Thats fine. Nobody has to advocate if they don't want to. Still, the next time you're riding on a bike lane or cycle path, at least be aware that that facility didn't just magically appear, and it wasn't installed due to some government's unsolicited generosity.

    Every facility was installed because some cyclists advocated to get it put in there. Somebody did the grunt work of going to meetings, raising money, doing media campaign legwork, or at least writing a small check to help defray expenses. I'm guessing that somebody wasn't you?
    There is much truth to what you state, but one point has to be brought up: That infrastructure was put in place for cyclists to use, sure, but not necessarily to promote LCF.

    Face it, if you want more people to experiment/embrace LCF, then focus on the positives and the not the negatives. Reason being is that LCF is a minor subset of cyclists in general, which in turn is still a minority in the States. By attacking the car, you are also attacking to some extent those non-LCF cyclists.

  20. #70
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by memebag View Post
    ..... but I also know all of us are subsidizing farming.
    You're going back to the 1950's to get those ideas. Farmers aren't subsidized. There was that stupid alcohol subsidize thingy.... which created a new industry and wasted a bunch of federal dollars. But very few ended up in farmers pockets. But... none of this has anything to do with the OP topic... I am out.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    How convenient for proponents of the status quo! Anyone speaking out in favor of car-free living is "preaching" and should shut up (or be censored?), while motoring advocates should feel free to praise to high heavens the wonders of the motor car. Does "GetOuttaMyWay" describe your driving style, your attitude toward those you disagree with or both?
    1. Well, by "preaching", you can either choose to promote the positives of LCF or focus on the negative of the car. I'm just tired of the attacking of the auto.

    2. My wife picked the username. Probably because I'm always telling those that are more interested in that smartphone in their hands than paying attention to the flow of traffic around them, whether I'm on the bike, on foot, or in the car. The name might also have something to do with what I tell my own kids when the dinner bell is rung

  22. #72
    Senior Member rebel1916's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    You're going back to the 1950's to get those ideas. Farmers aren't subsidized. There was that stupid alcohol subsidize thingy.... which created a new industry and wasted a bunch of federal dollars. But very few ended up in farmers pockets. But... none of this has anything to do with the OP topic... I am out.
    You are apparently living in an imaginary world populated by unicorns, rainbows and whimsical, televised, bearded creatures who hand carve duck calls.

  23. #73
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    You're paying people to live in the burbs? I live in a city now.... but if you're so loaded that you are willing to send checks I might be willing to move. How many people do you actually pay to live in the boonies?
    I don't know - I was simply repeating his claim that we have to subsidize roads so people in the suburbs don't lose equity in their homes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Farmers aren't subsidized.
    Agricultural subsidies are one of the most massive burdens on the taxpayer in the USA and Canada

  24. #74
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GetOuttaMyWay View Post
    1. Well, by "preaching", you can either choose to promote the positives of LCF or focus on the negative of the car. I'm just tired of the attacking of the auto.
    I like doing both. I love bikes and public transport and I hate what cars are doing to our society, the number of people they kill, their effect on the environment, on public health and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by GetOuttaMyWay View Post
    2. My wife picked the username. Probably because I'm always telling those that are more interested in that smartphone in their hands than paying attention to the flow of traffic around them, whether I'm on the bike, on foot, or in the car. The name might also have something to do with what I tell my own kids when the dinner bell is rung
    Okay.
    Smug, bicycle-riding, car-bashing, public transport-using zealot.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    You're going back to the 1950's to get those ideas. Farmers aren't subsidized. There was that stupid alcohol subsidize thingy.... which created a new industry and wasted a bunch of federal dollars. But very few ended up in farmers pockets. But... none of this has anything to do with the OP topic... I am out.
    Say what?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricul...#United_States

    "The United States currently pays around $20 billion per year to farmers in direct subsidies as 'farm income stabilization'."

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