Understanding Backlash Against Car-Free Advocacy
#151
Sophomoric Member
I'd like to see some one ride a bike to work this morning in my rural setting. -10 deg. and 30-40MPH winds. White out blowing snow. Hard to ride or walk 10 miles to work in the dark winter mornings. No public transportation, all those government funds go to the big population areas. I think inner city dwellers are ignorant of the world around them and are to focused in their bubble. Nothing wrong with cars or no cars. if you can do what you want and don't criticize others.
I have a 7 bicycles and 4 autos. Even have a duck. I have a corn field in my back yard. Love it.
Peace Out
I have a 7 bicycles and 4 autos. Even have a duck. I have a corn field in my back yard. Love it.
Peace Out
Of course nothing is going to make it easy in this weather. We're going to have -40 wind chills here today and tomorrow. Here in Michigan we have the added fun of lake effect snow whenever the wind is strong. I'm lucky enough to be able to take a bus in this weather, although waiting for the bus in this weather is no picnic. Another bonus of city living is that I only live a couple blocks from work. If I lived out in the country, I would most likely own a car like you do.
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#152
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My thought is that if I lived in the country I would appreciate paved shoulders on the busy roads for riding my bike. That would make a ten mile bike commute fairly easy on most days of the year.
You mean gravel shoulders. No bicycle lanes here. You have to claim the 12 inches on the side of pavement and ignore the traffic. Hope for the best. At least the hills are not too bad. The traffic is minima and farm equipment is slow.
You mean gravel shoulders. No bicycle lanes here. You have to claim the 12 inches on the side of pavement and ignore the traffic. Hope for the best. At least the hills are not too bad. The traffic is minima and farm equipment is slow.
#153
Prefers Cicero
I'd like to see some one ride a bike to work this morning in my rural setting. -10 deg. and 30-40MPH winds. White out blowing snow. Hard to ride or walk 10 miles to work in the dark winter mornings. No public transportation, all those government funds go to the big population areas. I think inner city dwellers are ignorant of the world around them and are to focused in their bubble. Nothing wrong with cars or no cars. if you can do what you want and don't criticize others.
Last edited by cooker; 01-27-14 at 10:21 AM.
#154
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I assume you chose to live there knowing there isn't and never will be much in the way of public transit. At the same time, don't be thinking city dwellers are somehow getting transit subsidies at your expense. You also receive transportation subsidies in the form of roads. Some rural areas outside large cities also get subsidized commuter trains. It wouldn't make sense for governments to try to support urban style public transit in your setting.
Actually cities get more federal subsidies.
But I love where I live. Wouldn't want to live in a high rise surrounded by people, smog, crime, and concrete. used to live in Chicago.
They did have trains between the towns in the 1800's. But than you road a horse.
All in all...life is great.
what's your point cooker?
Last edited by rogertc1; 01-27-14 at 11:20 AM.
#155
Prefers Cicero
Actually cities get more federal subsidies.
But I love where I live. Wouldn't want to live in a high rise surrounded by people, smog, crime, and concrete. used to live in Chicago.
They did have trains between the towns in the 1800's. But than you road a horse.
All in all...life is great.
what's your point cooker?
But I love where I live. Wouldn't want to live in a high rise surrounded by people, smog, crime, and concrete. used to live in Chicago.
They did have trains between the towns in the 1800's. But than you road a horse.
All in all...life is great.
what's your point cooker?
One is that none of us lives a lifestyle in isolation, and what each of us does affects others. So the argument that we should only care about what we are doing, and leave others to their own devices, and not criticise them, doesn't fly. If they merit criticism, they can be criticized.
Secondly, the issue of subsidies is very complex. I don't know if I agree that "cities get more federal subsidies". There are all kinds of hidden or indirect rural subsidies, like the money put into roads, or cheap postal rates, or agricultural subsidies, or whatever else. It's difficult to do a full cost analysis, so I don't think I can just accept your blanket statement at face value.
#156
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I have at least a couple of points.
One is that none of us lives a lifestyle in isolation, and what each of us does affects others. So the argument that we should only care about what we are doing, and leave others to their own devices, and not criticise them, doesn't fly. If they merit criticism, they can be criticized.
Secondly, the issue of subsidies is very complex. I don't know if I agree that "cities get more federal subsidies". There are all kinds of hidden or indirect rural subsidies, like the money put into roads, or cheap postal rates, or agricultural subsidies, or whatever else. It's difficult to do a full cost analysis, so I don't think I can just accept your blanket statement at face value.
One is that none of us lives a lifestyle in isolation, and what each of us does affects others. So the argument that we should only care about what we are doing, and leave others to their own devices, and not criticise them, doesn't fly. If they merit criticism, they can be criticized.
Secondly, the issue of subsidies is very complex. I don't know if I agree that "cities get more federal subsidies". There are all kinds of hidden or indirect rural subsidies, like the money put into roads, or cheap postal rates, or agricultural subsidies, or whatever else. It's difficult to do a full cost analysis, so I don't think I can just accept your blanket statement at face value.
Back In topic, Just simply accept ones beliefs and don't demand that everyone do as you do.
#157
Prefers Cicero
1.Even though I live in farming country I see no subsidies. 2.If the government doesn't re-new the farm bill all will feel the pain of buying $7.00 a gallon milk. d.There are more roads in a dense large city too. Simply do a Google search. It is all there.
Back In topic, 4.Just simply accept ones beliefs and don't demand that everyone do as you do.
Back In topic, 4.Just simply accept ones beliefs and don't demand that everyone do as you do.
2. I'd rather pay full price for milk (or energy, or whatever), than pay for it through taxes. When the true price of anything is hidden and distorted, the marketplace doesn't work and people don't behave rationally.
3. Not more roads per person.
4. I don't mind what people do if it has no impact on others.
#158
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None of us lives a lifestyle in isolation, and what each of us does affects others. So the argument that we should only care about what we are doing, and leave others to their own devices, and not criticise them, doesn't fly. If they merit criticism, they can be criticized.
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My snow machines....I like my life in small town USA.
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You've hit the nail on the head! Almost anyone admitting to being CF or CL around here feel they must immediatley add a disclaimer to their comments making it clear that they do it for selfish reasons only and that they have nothing against our car-centric transit system and nothing in common with us tree huggers. How bizarre! Meanwhile, the truth, sober as a judge, just won't go away:
Pine Island Glacier's retreat 'irreversible'
Pine Island Glacier's retreat 'irreversible'
#163
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You've hit the nail on the head! Almost anyone admitting to being CF or CL around here feels he must immediatley add a disclaimer to his comments making it clear that he does it only for reasons that are in his self-interest and that he has nothing against our car-centric transit system and nothing in common with us tree huggers. How bizarre! Meanwhile, the truth, sober as a judge, just won't go away:
Pine Island Glacier's retreat 'irreversible'
Last edited by Ekdog; 02-04-14 at 08:19 AM.
#164
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[QUOTE=Ekdog;16466469]Okay, I'll use your term.
You've hit the nail on the head! Almost anyone admitting to being CF or CL around here feels he must immediatley add a disclaimer to his comments making it clear that he does it only for reasons that are in his self-interest and that he has nothing against our car-centric transit system and nothing in common with us tree huggers. How bizarre! Meanwhile, the truth, sober as a judge, just won't go away:
Pine Island Glacier's retreat 'irreversible'
[/QUOTE
And by acting in my best self interest I remove one car from the street, remove the emissions from the air, lower my chances of killing or seriously injuring anyone with my car to zero, and at the same time advocate a car free life not by word but by action. And you find a problem with me acting in my own best self interest?
You've hit the nail on the head! Almost anyone admitting to being CF or CL around here feels he must immediatley add a disclaimer to his comments making it clear that he does it only for reasons that are in his self-interest and that he has nothing against our car-centric transit system and nothing in common with us tree huggers. How bizarre! Meanwhile, the truth, sober as a judge, just won't go away:
Pine Island Glacier's retreat 'irreversible'
[/QUOTE
And by acting in my best self interest I remove one car from the street, remove the emissions from the air, lower my chances of killing or seriously injuring anyone with my car to zero, and at the same time advocate a car free life not by word but by action. And you find a problem with me acting in my own best self interest?
#165
Sophomoric Member
[QUOTE=lakhotason;16466510]
I'm glad you're doing that, no matter what your reason is!
It's in everybody's self-interest to drastically reduce carbon pollution and other forms of pollution. Driving cars much less is one of the best ways an individual can reduce pollution. The question is, why do people get criticized (backlash) whenever they say this?
Okay, I'll use your term.
You've hit the nail on the head! Almost anyone admitting to being CF or CL around here feels he must immediatley add a disclaimer to his comments making it clear that he does it only for reasons that are in his self-interest and that he has nothing against our car-centric transit system and nothing in common with us tree huggers. How bizarre! Meanwhile, the truth, sober as a judge, just won't go away:
Pine Island Glacier's retreat 'irreversible'
[/QUOTE
And by acting in my best self interest I remove one car from the street, remove the emissions from the air, lower my chances of killing or seriously injuring anyone with my car to zero, and at the same time advocate a car free life not by word but by action. And you find a problem with me acting in my own best self interest?
You've hit the nail on the head! Almost anyone admitting to being CF or CL around here feels he must immediatley add a disclaimer to his comments making it clear that he does it only for reasons that are in his self-interest and that he has nothing against our car-centric transit system and nothing in common with us tree huggers. How bizarre! Meanwhile, the truth, sober as a judge, just won't go away:
Pine Island Glacier's retreat 'irreversible'
[/QUOTE
And by acting in my best self interest I remove one car from the street, remove the emissions from the air, lower my chances of killing or seriously injuring anyone with my car to zero, and at the same time advocate a car free life not by word but by action. And you find a problem with me acting in my own best self interest?
It's in everybody's self-interest to drastically reduce carbon pollution and other forms of pollution. Driving cars much less is one of the best ways an individual can reduce pollution. The question is, why do people get criticized (backlash) whenever they say this?
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#166
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[QUOTE=Roody;16466726]
I think this illustrates why there is a backlash against car free living. It's the agenda that goes along with it. I ride a bike because it's fun.
That's the only reason. All the benefits that accrue to society aren't good enough. It is as if it is more required to talk the talk than it is just to ride my bike because it's fun.
I'm glad you're doing that, no matter what your reason is!
It's in everybody's self-interest to drastically reduce carbon pollution and other forms of pollution. Driving cars much less is one of the best ways an individual can reduce pollution. The question is, why do people get criticized (backlash) whenever they say this?
It's in everybody's self-interest to drastically reduce carbon pollution and other forms of pollution. Driving cars much less is one of the best ways an individual can reduce pollution. The question is, why do people get criticized (backlash) whenever they say this?
That's the only reason. All the benefits that accrue to society aren't good enough. It is as if it is more required to talk the talk than it is just to ride my bike because it's fun.
#167
Senior Member
You are attacking them and their cherished beliefs -- regardless of the bottom line situational reality -- why do you think you would not get backlash/criticism? Such responses seem to be just a part of general human nature, not limited to this particular debate.
Were I to argue car-free advocacy, I'd much more stress the immediate positive aspects of being car-free, rather than pointing accusatory -- or even the perception of being accusatory -- fingers at car drivers as polluters, or any environmental aspect.
It's akin to arguing about vegetarianism -- when political/ethical vegetarians delve into saving the world and animals, my eyes roll; when I advocate vegetarianism, it's from a strictly self-interest POV. Health aspects, mainly, but also good and regular pooping, smelling better in general, lower cost at the grocery store, etc.
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Because the listener perceives you as saying "You are certainly a carbon polluter and also pollute the environment in other ways. Get rid of a necessary part of your life (car) in order to be as environmentally holier-than-thou as me." ...even if they claim otherwise to be environmentally aware and active.
You are attacking them and their cherished beliefs -- regardless of the bottom line situational reality -- why do you think you would not get backlash/criticism? Such responses seem to be just a part of general human nature, not limited to this particular debate.
Were I to argue car-free advocacy, I'd much more stress the immediate positive aspects of being car-free, rather than pointing accusatory -- or even the perception of being accusatory -- fingers at car drivers as polluters, or any environmental aspect.
It's akin to arguing about vegetarianism -- when political/ethical vegetarians delve into saving the world and animals, my eyes roll; when I advocate vegetarianism, it's from a strictly self-interest POV. Health aspects, mainly, but also good and regular pooping, smelling better in general, lower cost at the grocery store, etc.
You are attacking them and their cherished beliefs -- regardless of the bottom line situational reality -- why do you think you would not get backlash/criticism? Such responses seem to be just a part of general human nature, not limited to this particular debate.
Were I to argue car-free advocacy, I'd much more stress the immediate positive aspects of being car-free, rather than pointing accusatory -- or even the perception of being accusatory -- fingers at car drivers as polluters, or any environmental aspect.
It's akin to arguing about vegetarianism -- when political/ethical vegetarians delve into saving the world and animals, my eyes roll; when I advocate vegetarianism, it's from a strictly self-interest POV. Health aspects, mainly, but also good and regular pooping, smelling better in general, lower cost at the grocery store, etc.
#169
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I think this illustrates why there is a backlash against car free living. It's the agenda that goes along with it. I ride a bike because it's fun.
That's the only reason. All the benefits that accrue to society aren't good enough. It is as if it is more required to talk the talk than it is just to ride my bike because it's fun.
#170
Senior Member
I was thinking of it more in general terms, speaking to the unenlightened masses, not splitting semantic hairs among the already CL/CF converted.
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Because the listener perceives you as saying "You are certainly a carbon polluter and also pollute the environment in other ways. Get rid of a necessary part of your life (car) in order to be as environmentally holier-than-thou as me." ...even if they claim otherwise to be environmentally aware and active.
You are attacking them and their cherished beliefs -- regardless of the bottom line situational reality -- why do you think you would not get backlash/criticism? Such responses seem to be just a part of general human nature, not limited to this particular debate.
Were I to argue car-free advocacy, I'd much more stress the immediate positive aspects of being car-free, rather than pointing accusatory -- or even the perception of being accusatory -- fingers at car drivers as polluters, or any environmental aspect.
It's akin to arguing about vegetarianism -- when political/ethical vegetarians delve into saving the world and animals, my eyes roll; when I advocate vegetarianism, it's from a strictly self-interest POV. Health aspects, mainly, but also good and regular pooping,(Using more TP...) smelling better in general, lower cost at the grocery store, etc.
You are attacking them and their cherished beliefs -- regardless of the bottom line situational reality -- why do you think you would not get backlash/criticism? Such responses seem to be just a part of general human nature, not limited to this particular debate.
Were I to argue car-free advocacy, I'd much more stress the immediate positive aspects of being car-free, rather than pointing accusatory -- or even the perception of being accusatory -- fingers at car drivers as polluters, or any environmental aspect.
It's akin to arguing about vegetarianism -- when political/ethical vegetarians delve into saving the world and animals, my eyes roll; when I advocate vegetarianism, it's from a strictly self-interest POV. Health aspects, mainly, but also good and regular pooping,(Using more TP...) smelling better in general, lower cost at the grocery store, etc.
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I think this illustrates why there is a backlash against car free living. It's the agenda that goes along with it. I ride a bike because it's fun.
That's the only reason. All the benefits that accrue to society aren't good enough. It is as if it is more required to talk the talk than it is just to ride my bike because it's fun.
Last edited by Ekdog; 02-04-14 at 04:33 PM.
#175
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And by acting in my best self interest I remove one car from the street, remove the emissions from the air, lower my chances of killing or seriously injuring anyone with my car to zero, and at the same time advocate a car free life not by word but by action. And you find a problem with me acting in my own best self interest?