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  1. #101
    Senior Member GodsBassist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshnasi View Post
    I read the article and thanks for posting, don't get me wrong, I appreciate the idea and sentiment. However, I honed in on something there that speaks to what I am saying



    In other words, Copenhagen has a dilemma. It's invested heavily in cycling and now that it is tapering off, they are throwing more money at the problem.

    You can't get governments to not spend, they have a ridiculously difficult time doing nothing. In the case of infrastructure.
    I'm advocating we not do much, we grow in step with the popularity of cycling, not try and smash it down the collective peoples throats via construction and high construction costs which will only yield at most a 1% increase in total population riding in 5-10 years.
    I agree. $155 billion dollars was spent on highways last year. Since cycling only accounts for 1-ish percent of the modality we should restrict the spending to 1-ish percent, that's only $1.5 Billion dollars so we're not shoving anything down anybody's throats. To be fair though that will only build a few 100k miles of separated MUP, or a few million miles of sharrows.

  2. #102
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshnasi View Post
    I read the article and thanks for posting, don't get me wrong, I appreciate the idea and sentiment. However, I honed in on something there that speaks to what I am saying



    In other words, Copenhagen has a dilemma. It's invested heavily in cycling and now that it is tapering off, they are throwing more money at the problem.

    You can't get governments to not spend, they have a ridiculously difficult time doing nothing. In the case of infrastructure. I'm advocating we not do much, we grow in step with the popularity of cycling, not try and smash it down the collective peoples throats via construction and high construction costs which will only yield at most a 1% increase in total population riding in 5-10 years.
    Cities have an amazing problem with traffic congestion that cripples economic growth, plagues public health, and deteriorates the quality of life. What solutions do you have that are cheap and that don't involve more bikes?


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  3. #103
    Senior Member Hoshnasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodsBassist View Post
    I agree. $155 billion dollars was spent on highways last year. Since cycling only accounts for 1-ish percent of the modality we should restrict the spending to 1-ish percent, that's only $1.5 Billion dollars so we're not shoving anything down anybody's throats. To be fair though that will only build a few 100k miles of separated MUP, or a few million miles of sharrows.
    I'd say collectively, that is a states/city issue. Here in Ca. My city may not be worthy of a lions share to that % of funds, but there are other cities that have people ready and willing to partake in good infrastructure.

    Or just give cyclists a tax cut so we can all go buy new bikes and gear, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crushkilldstroy View Post
    This is the best thing you can do to prevent a hangover.
    21. Buy more meth.
    22. Shoot up more meth.
    23. Don't go to sleep.
    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    I built a self-trepanning rig that I use after bike wrecks in which my helmet splits and I can't remember how I got home.
    I'll sell you plans for five dollars.

  4. #104
    Senior Member Hoshnasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Cities have an amazing problem with traffic congestion that cripples economic growth, plagues public health, and deteriorates the quality of life. What solutions do you have that are cheap and that don't involve more bikes?
    Google auto-drive. Congestion will become a thing of the past.

    Seriously though, your question implies the issue needs a solution, or that the technology exists for there to be an adequate solution. Growth of population and desire to own/drive a car to work and everywhere else only grows and grows as the populace grows. Trying to control the desire or dissuade others from driving sounds pretty freedom-crushing. Moreover, putting money into alternative conveyance sounds like a waste.

    In the short term, I'd try and privatize parts of what is the causing congestion, buses, toll roads, etc. Technological advancement in these areas will come from the private sector, not the government.

    In the long term it's a case by case scenario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crushkilldstroy View Post
    This is the best thing you can do to prevent a hangover.
    21. Buy more meth.
    22. Shoot up more meth.
    23. Don't go to sleep.
    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    I built a self-trepanning rig that I use after bike wrecks in which my helmet splits and I can't remember how I got home.
    I'll sell you plans for five dollars.

  5. #105
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshnasi View Post
    Google auto-drive. Congestion will become a thing of the past.

    Seriously though, your question implies the issue needs a solution, or that the technology exists for there to be an adequate solution. Growth of population and desire to own/drive a car to work and everywhere else only grows and grows as the populace grows. Trying to control the desire or dissuade others from driving sounds pretty freedom-crushing. Moreover, putting money into alternative conveyance sounds like a waste.

    In the short term, I'd try and privatize parts of what is the causing congestion, buses, toll roads, etc. Technological advancement in these areas will come from the private sector, not the government.

    In the long term it's a case by case scenario.
    I'm not going to drink this kool-aid, which will only get the thread moved to P&R.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  6. #106
    Senior Member Hoshnasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I'm not going to drink this kool-aid, which will only get the thread moved to P&R.
    Fair enough, but you did ask the question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crushkilldstroy View Post
    This is the best thing you can do to prevent a hangover.
    21. Buy more meth.
    22. Shoot up more meth.
    23. Don't go to sleep.
    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    I built a self-trepanning rig that I use after bike wrecks in which my helmet splits and I can't remember how I got home.
    I'll sell you plans for five dollars.

  7. #107
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshnasi View Post
    Fair enough, but you did ask the question.
    I don't think I asked the same question that you answered.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  8. #108
    Senior Member Hoshnasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Cities have an amazing problem with traffic congestion that cripples economic growth, plagues public health, and deteriorates the quality of life. What solutions do you have that are cheap and that don't involve more bikes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I don't think I asked the same question that you answered.
    Do nothing is cheap, privatizing is cheap. Neither involve bikes.

    http://tickers.TickerFactory.com/ezt...E4T/weight.png

    Quote Originally Posted by crushkilldstroy View Post
    This is the best thing you can do to prevent a hangover.
    21. Buy more meth.
    22. Shoot up more meth.
    23. Don't go to sleep.
    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    I built a self-trepanning rig that I use after bike wrecks in which my helmet splits and I can't remember how I got home.
    I'll sell you plans for five dollars.

  9. #109
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshnasi View Post
    Do nothing is cheap, privatizing is cheap. Neither involve bikes.
    Okey doke.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  10. #110
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshnasi View Post
    Would it be possible for you to post some evidence of a 6% growth rate. Regardless of the country or city that is a very high return.
    http://copenhagenize.eu/index/04.html

    http://www.urbanalternatives.eu/urba...1_Sevilla.html
    Gimme that car-free living!

  11. #111
    Senior Member surreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshnasi View Post
    ....privatizing is cheap...

    Cheap for WHO?

  12. #112
    Senior Member Hoshnasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    Cheap for WHO?
    Almost everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crushkilldstroy View Post
    This is the best thing you can do to prevent a hangover.
    21. Buy more meth.
    22. Shoot up more meth.
    23. Don't go to sleep.
    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    I built a self-trepanning rig that I use after bike wrecks in which my helmet splits and I can't remember how I got home.
    I'll sell you plans for five dollars.

  13. #113
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshnasi View Post
    Almost everyone.
    To quote you, would it be possible to post some evidence?


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  14. #114
    Senior Member surreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshnasi View Post
    Almost everyone.
    Yeah, like with healthcare, right? Good one.

  15. #115
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Yes, they put in crappy bike lanes and of course nobody rides on them. And that, they claim, "proves" that bicycle facilities "don't work". It just flabbergasted me that a few people can still believe such obvious lies and nonsense from the automobile lobby.
    Ok, lets assume that the auto lobby affects our perceptions. How do we justify the different demographics of users using the very same infrastructure? Lets say based on a Bicycling industry source?
    http://www.gluskintownleygroup.com/d...w%20Report.pdf

    These trends are about as new as I could find and they address, men, women, children and ethnicity.

    How unstoppable does this trend make Elly's contention?
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  16. #116
    In the right lane gerv's Avatar
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    Hey is anyone actually read this book? I've made it to page 30 and like what I'm reading. I could probably have gleaned most of her arguments by lurking on LCF though.

  17. #117
    Senior Member Hoshnasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    Yeah, like with healthcare, right? Good one.
    Implying the healthcare system is truly private is naive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crushkilldstroy View Post
    This is the best thing you can do to prevent a hangover.
    21. Buy more meth.
    22. Shoot up more meth.
    23. Don't go to sleep.
    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    I built a self-trepanning rig that I use after bike wrecks in which my helmet splits and I can't remember how I got home.
    I'll sell you plans for five dollars.

  18. #118
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshnasi View Post
    Implying the healthcare system is truly private is naive.
    The highway system, which is what we are discussing, is not private either. The only privatization of a public road that I know about was an experiment in Michigan that lasted for several years. A private company (ABC Paving) was low bidder to maintain about 20 miles of an urban interstate extension (I-496) in Lansing. ABC Paving charged the state $15,000 per mile. The state DOT reported that they could do it for $8,100, while the county road commission said it would cost them only $7,100. The contract with ABC Paving was not renewed.

    Newspaper article:
    http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=5032,3708735

    Report from a right wing think tank:
    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/M-DOT+...ved-a019925500


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  19. #119
    Senior Member Hoshnasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    The highway system, which is what we are discussing, is not private either. The only privatization of a public road that I know about was an experiment in Michigan that lasted for several years. A private company (ABC Paving) was low bidder to maintain about 20 miles of an urban interstate extension (I-496) in Lansing. ABC Paving charged the state $15,000 per mile. The state DOT reported that they could do it for $8,100, while the county road commission said it would cost them only $7,100. The contract with ABC Paving was not renewed.

    Newspaper article:
    http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=5032,3708735

    Report from a right wing think tank:
    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/M-DOT+...ved-a019925500

    We do it here in LA, Orange and Riverside county. They offer "fast track" toll lanes to bypass the public traffic at a cost, which covers their expenses.

    Also, I think its sort of appealing to tradition or authority to say that something won't work or shouldn't be preferred because one failed attempt or that because the institutions which has largely been stagnant may right now be cheaper in again, this particular situation.

    I'll try to get to common ground with this though. I think Citibike is a step in the right direction. It's almost entirely funded privately and has city oversight. I'm not sure how much "oversight" and I hope over time it is reduced and not increased to keep the bikes rolling cheaply.

    I'm also a huge fan of not-for-profit or privately owned for profit bike kitchens, like here in LA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crushkilldstroy View Post
    This is the best thing you can do to prevent a hangover.
    21. Buy more meth.
    22. Shoot up more meth.
    23. Don't go to sleep.
    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    I built a self-trepanning rig that I use after bike wrecks in which my helmet splits and I can't remember how I got home.
    I'll sell you plans for five dollars.

  20. #120
    Pedalin' Erry Day lasauge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    http://www.gluskintownleygroup.com/d...w%20Report.pdf

    How unstoppable does this trend make Elly's contention?
    Aside from the differences of purpose, I don't think the the author of that paper and Elly would find all that much to disagree about except for the sources of their numbers. He comes to similar conclusion, that the biggest factor hindering the growth of cycling in the US is the built environment of our cities:

    In this environment, the most pressing issue for bicycle stores and suppliers is holding on to loyal customers for as long as possible. But that alone is not enough. The bicycle industry must also seek growth by attracting women back to the sport, and by finding ways to put Hispanic, black, and Asian families on bikes. Women are far more sensitive to safety issues than men are, and more of their daily transportation needs revolve around family activities and shopping. Most of the children in America’s largest cities and states are black, Hispanic, Asian, or from some other non-white race. For this reason, the single best way to attract women and minorities to bicycling is making urban and suburban streets safer and more cycle-friendly.

  21. #121
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasauge View Post
    Aside from the differences of purpose, I don't think the the author of that paper and Elly would find all that much to disagree about except for the sources of their numbers. He comes to similar conclusion, that the biggest factor hindering the growth of cycling in the US is the built environment of our cities:
    Maybe true, however for some reason the lack of infrastructure seems to effect one group less than others. Specifically if it weren't for older white males the unstoppable would be considered stopped in the US.

    The he question was asked if we didn't see an increase in cycling in the US and the numbers indicate only white males have remained constant. Females, children
    and all minority males have decresed using the same infrastructure. So it seems it is a force of will not simply build it and they will come. And it also answers the question of if we see more cyclists on the road in general. Nationally the answer is no. And according to the NBDA the percentages of adults bikes sold has still not reached the 1973 levels. So with the massive decrease in bicycle use in China and the decrease in all but one portion of the US population it looks like the "Unstoppable" is stoppable. At least statistacaly.
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  22. #122
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    Maybe true, however for some reason the lack of infrastructure seems to effect one group less than others. Specifically if it weren't for older white males the unstoppable would be considered stopped in the US.

    The he question was asked if we didn't see an increase in cycling in the US and the numbers indicate only white males have remained constant. Females, children
    and all minority males have decresed using the same infrastructure. So it seems it is a force of will not simply build it and they will come. And it also answers the question of if we see more cyclists on the road in general. Nationally the answer is no. And according to the NBDA the percentages of adults bikes sold has still not reached the 1973 levels. So with the massive decrease in bicycle use in China and the decrease in all but one portion of the US population it looks like the "Unstoppable" is stoppable. At least statistacaly.
    I don't care what these figures say. My own eyes see more cyclists today. Many of them are not white and most of them did not buy a bike from a member of NBDA. Most did not buy a new bike at all, but a used one. Most of these new cyclists are riding on the sidewalks or side streets, presumably because they perceive the main streets to be too dangerous. I doubt if very many were asked to participate in a survey about their cycling habits.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  23. #123
    Senior Member GodsBassist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
    Maybe true, however for some reason the lack of infrastructure seems to effect one group less than others. Specifically if it weren't for older white males the unstoppable would be considered stopped in the US.

    The he question was asked if we didn't see an increase in cycling in the US and the numbers indicate only white males have remained constant. Females, children
    and all minority males have decresed using the same infrastructure. So it seems it is a force of will not simply build it and they will come. And it also answers the question of if we see more cyclists on the road in general. Nationally the answer is no. And according to the NBDA the percentages of adults bikes sold has still not reached the 1973 levels. So with the massive decrease in bicycle use in China and the decrease in all but one portion of the US population it looks like the "Unstoppable" is stoppable. At least statistacaly.
    I'm not sure where you got your demographic statistics for cyclists, but they are incorrect. Between 2001 and 2009 blacks went from 8 to 10 percent of trips accounted for and hispanics from 6 to 8. Women are also taking a larger share of the bike demographic because of new bike infrastructure, most prominently bike share systems. This has been documented by the league of American bicyclists and is covered (albeit anecdotally) by Elly Blue in her book as she references the fact that more advocacy groups are being attended and lead by women.

    The 60 percent increase in cycling throughout the country since 2000 has been across the board demographically, but women and minorities have contributed more to that increase than white males.

    http://www.bikeleague.org/content/ac...continues-rise

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/...sc=tw&cc=share

  24. #124
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerv View Post
    Hey is anyone actually read this book? I've made it to page 30 and like what I'm reading. I could probably have gleaned most of her arguments by lurking on LCF though.
    There doesn't seem to be a Kindle version available. I went to Amazon and accidentally ordered a 26-page "zine" with the same title. I've cancelled that as I wanted to read the whole book. Oh, well...
    Gimme that car-free living!

  25. #125
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodsBassist View Post
    I'm not sure where you got your demographic statistics for cyclists, but they are incorrect. Between 2001 and 2009 blacks went from 8 to 10 percent of trips accounted for and hispanics from 6 to 8. Women are also taking a larger share of the bike demographic because of new bike infrastructure, most prominently bike share systems. This has been documented by the league of American bicyclists and is covered (albeit anecdotally) by Elly Blue in her book as she references the fact that more advocacy groups are being attended and lead by women.

    The 60 percent increase in cycling throughout the country since 2000 has been across the board demographically, but women and minorities have contributed more to that increase than white males.

    http://www.bikeleague.org/content/ac...continues-rise

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/...sc=tw&cc=share
    Then you didn't follow any of my links.
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

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