Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 40
  1. #1
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seville, Spain
    My Bikes
    Brompton M6R and mountain bikes equipped for touring.
    Posts
    3,156
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    What Came First, Children or Cars?

    I came across this article over at StreetsBlog and thought it might stimulate some discussion here as the author pokes fun at the notion--put forward ad nauseam by certain proponents of fossil fuel-intensive transport who post here--that raising a child and being car-free are incompatible.

    http://streetsblog.net/2014/01/27/wh...ldren-or-cars/
    Last edited by Ekdog; 02-14-14 at 10:10 AM. Reason: typo
    Gimme that car-free living!

  2. #2
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,494
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Getting rid of car expenses would improve the lives of many families with children (including my own).

    In order to get rid of car expenses they would require good transit or need to live in a community where living essentials, including job and school, were within walking distance.

    A country is so much greater when they make it easy for young parents to get rid of the expense of owning a car.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    43
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    I came across this article over at StreetsBlog and thought it might stimulate some discussion here as the author pokes fun at the notion--put forum ad nauseam by certain proponents of fossil fuel-intensive transport who post here--that raising a child and being car-free are incompatible.

    http://streetsblog.net/2014/01/27/wh...ldren-or-cars/
    So in other words, you're wanting to troll anyone who doesn't share your militant anti-car views.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seville, Spain
    My Bikes
    Brompton M6R and mountain bikes equipped for touring.
    Posts
    3,156
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Getting rid of car expenses would improve the lives of many families with children (including my own).

    In order to get rid of car expenses they would require good transit or need to live in a community where living essentials, including job and school, were within walking distance.

    A country is so much greater when they make it easy for young parents to get rid of the expense of owning a car.
    Good points. Good transit and walkability are key.
    Gimme that car-free living!

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    43
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Getting rid of car expenses would improve the lives of many families with children (including my own).

    In order to get rid of car expenses they would require good transit or need to live in a community where living essentials, including job and school, were within walking distance.

    A country is so much greater when they make it easy for young parents to get rid of the expense of owning a car.
    I mostly agree with this. However, it used to be possible to work at the same place until retirement and so live in the same house. But what happens when the employer decides to relocate across town? Or another town/state? Or even off-shore?

    People used to count on job security. They no longer are afforded that luxury (for the most part)- especially in the manufacturing sector. If you are rank and file and the boss decides to move, you may not be invited along for the ride. Then what?

    Back to the main point: there are families that are LCF. They have the desire to make that commitment. Not everyone does nor are they interested in LCF.

    And the next generation is showing signs of resisting the allure of the almighty automobile. Of course, it is hard to feed their smartphone w/data and gaming console addictions and acquire, insure, operate, and maintain a car.

  6. #6
    Senior Member GodsBassist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Odenton, MD
    Posts
    661
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    For me, my son's school (previously daycare) is just another location I have to coordinate into the selection of my residence. It makes it more difficult in the sense that it's another destination around which I have to coordinate a walkable place to live. It does not make it more difficult in the sense that "now I'm immobile unless I have a car, how do you even transport a baby farther than the driveway without one?"

    There aren't locations like the one I've found in every suburbia, though. I don't expect that if I get stationed someplace else that I'll automatically be able to find a location that allows me to be car free. I think that's pretty crappy, considering 1) how empowering LCF can be especially for those who don't have a choice about it and 2) how relatively cheap it is to provide transportation infrastructure for a car free family.

  7. #7
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,494
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by GetOuttaMyWay View Post
    I mostly agree with this. However, it used to be possible to work at the same place until retirement and so live in the same house. But what happens when the employer decides to relocate across town? Or another town/state? Or even off-shore?

    People used to count on job security. They no longer are afforded that luxury (for the most part)- especially in the manufacturing sector. If you are rank and file and the boss decides to move, you may not be invited along for the ride. Then what?

    Back to the main point: there are families that are LCF. They have the desire to make that commitment. Not everyone does nor are they interested in LCF.

    And the next generation is showing signs of resisting the allure of the almighty automobile. Of course, it is hard to feed their smartphone w/data and gaming console addictions and acquire, insure, operate, and maintain a car.
    I think it would be a big problem for a carfree family to be relocated to a town that had no transit. They would again have to struggle and perhaps work longer hours in order to cover car expenses.

    If every community had good transit, job relocation would be no more burdensome for a carfree family than for a car owning family.

    We claim to be a society that loves children and supports families. But we don't do much to reduce the stress of raising a family, such as having reliable transportation for families who can't afford a car, or just don't want one.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  8. #8
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    On the road-USA
    My Bikes
    Giant Excursion, Raleigh Sports, Raleigh R.S.W. Compact, Motobecane? and about 20 more! OMG
    Posts
    16,247
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Getting rid of car expenses would improve the lives of many families with children (including my own).

    In order to get rid of car expenses they would require good transit or need to live in a community where living essentials, including job and school, were within walking distance.

    A country is so much greater when they make it easy for young parents to get rid of the expense of owning a car.
    Quote Originally Posted by GetOuttaMyWay View Post
    I mostly agree with this. However, it used to be possible to work at the same place until retirement and so live in the same house. But what happens when the employer decides to relocate across town? Or another town/state? Or even off-shore?

    People used to count on job security. They no longer are afforded that luxury (for the most part)- especially in the manufacturing sector. If you are rank and file and the boss decides to move, you may not be invited along for the ride. Then what?

    Back to the main point: there are families that are LCF. They have the desire to make that commitment. Not everyone does nor are they interested in LCF.

    And the next generation is showing signs of resisting the allure of the almighty automobile. Of course, it is hard to feed their smartphone w/data and gaming console addictions and acquire, insure, operate, and maintain a car.
    I agree, it is a struggle for many people. I have had many jobs disappear over the years. Until something changes with that aspect of the situation being able to reliably live car free is going to be a crap shoot. Not to mention having grocery stores leave an area and the next closest one is 12 miles further away and not on a bus route.

    Aaron
    Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

    ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.

    "Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
    RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"
    _Nicodemus

    "Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
    Aluminum: barely a hundred
    Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"
    _krazygluon

  9. #9
    Senior Member rebel1916's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    2,801
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    A coworker has a very elderly neighbor, whose husband was hired as a "guard" at the prison we work at when it was a home for defective delinquents (basically, you didn't want to be mentally handicapped back in the day). When he hired on he was told he would have to move closer, (he lived one town over) because how was he supposed to get there if the weather was bad. The jail used to send out a wagon when it snowed to pick everyone up and get em to work. Sorta like a depression era, Catskills version of the Google buses causing so much controversy in San Fran!

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    250
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I feel like I should comment since I have two kids, but have never owned a car. But what is there to say? We never wanted a car, so we never bought one. We have been open to the possibility we might one day want one, but we never have. It seems increasingly unlikely that we will ever want one at this point.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seville, Spain
    My Bikes
    Brompton M6R and mountain bikes equipped for touring.
    Posts
    3,156
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by rockmom View Post
    I feel like I should comment since I have two kids, but have never owned a car. But what is there to say? We never wanted a car, so we never bought one. We have been open to the possibility we might one day want one, but we never have. It seems increasingly unlikely that we will ever want one at this point.
    Is your area bike friendly? Is there good public transit?
    Last edited by Ekdog; 02-16-14 at 09:36 PM. Reason: typo
    Gimme that car-free living!

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,730
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    While many people on this forum accept the gospel of the difficulty of raising children without reliable public transit, I know that not all of us need it. We mostly lived in small cities while raising our one child and none of them had/has decent public transit. When it is less than twenty miles from one end of a city to the other, why would a parent need to use anything but a bike or shoes to get around? It's not like typical parents are senior citizens. Most folks start their families before they turn forty, often much before, which puts them in their peak years.

  13. #13
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,494
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    While many people on this forum accept the gospel of the difficulty of raising children without reliable public transit, I know that not all of us need it. We mostly lived in small cities while raising our one child and none of them had/has decent public transit. When it is less than twenty miles from one end of a city to the other, why would a parent need to use anything but a bike or shoes to get around? It's not like typical parents are senior citizens. Most folks start their families before they turn forty, often much before, which puts them in their peak years.
    I did say good transit OR have essential locations within walking distance. Although I guess I should have added biking distance. (I'm not sure about bicycling with newborns, however, which is why I didn't mention it before.)


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    43
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I did say good transit OR have essential locations within walking distance. Although I guess I should have added biking distance. (I'm not sure about bicycling with newborns, however, which is why I didn't mention it before.)
    Not including the bicycle in a LCF community on a bicycle related social networking site?

    Once the newborn is safely home from the hospital, there really is no need for the little poop machine to leave the house/grounds until they have developed basic motor skills. Just work out the logistics ahead of time- one parent stays home and the other runs the errands. Friends and family can travel to the baby.

    Those instances when the baby needs medical attention, if walking is not an option, I'm sure that there will be some kind of taxi service (even if it is an ad hoc one). Or they know someone who owns a car that is used strictly for long distance travel or emergencies.

    Also, there is a tool that the modern era LCF community has that wasn't even conceivable coming out of the WWII*- Amazon.

    *Just a hunch, but I think that the States didn't really embrace the person auto until after "the war to end all wars"... and though his Presidency predates WWII, Hoover's campaign slogan was "a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage".

  15. #15
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,494
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by GetOuttaMyWay View Post
    "a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage".
    For the New Urbanists on LCF, the hip new slogan is, "No car, but a few chickens in every garage and pot at the corner dispensary."

    And thanks for for the good info on carfree child rearing in this post. How old are your kids now?
    Last edited by Roody; 02-15-14 at 02:22 AM.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    91
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't think it can be denied that some places would really be hard to get around without a car, more so with kids in tow.

    So far I've tried the car-free with kids thing in Copenhagen and Oslo. Copenhagen is so easy, a person needs to be either adverse to physical activity, or wealthy enough that the cost of a car is irrelevant. Good cycling infrastructure, and free to take bikes onto regular trains, so a bike commute can painlessly include some rail travel. Kid-carrying cargo trikes and bikes are readily available, in various styles and prices ranges. People who aren't on bikes just don't want to bike.

    Oslo is harder but we've gone a year now, and that includes winter. We are soon moving into a more challenging location so we'll how that goes. Its important that food, daycare and school are reasonably close to home, mostly. The new place pushes the limits a little, and adds more hills. Oslo is a little strange compared to the US, in that there are generally small food stores to be found wherever people live. Not sure why, since most people still seem to drive to them. Strange place, Oslo.
    Last edited by trike_guy; 02-15-14 at 09:46 AM.

  17. #17
    Resident smartass. Fargo Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    275
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    that raising a child and being car-free are incompatible./
    Raising a child (children) in the Netherlands is certainly no problem for the car light/free Dutch. In fact, they make it look easy.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    250
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    It's your area bike friendly? Is there good public transit?
    Both are adequate. Since traveling with my children by car when they were under 4 was a nightmare not lightly contemplated, walking or busing or eventually biking with them was much less stressful although not always convenient.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seville, Spain
    My Bikes
    Brompton M6R and mountain bikes equipped for touring.
    Posts
    3,156
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Fargo Wolf View Post
    Raising a child (children) in the Netherlands is certainly no problem for the car light/free Dutch. In fact, they make it look easy.
    Indeed, and it's not only the Dutch. There are more and more parents doing it in other places, too. There's a primary school that I can see from my window. Every morning there's a traffic jam on the streets around it and lots of loud honking as the minority of parents who drive their kids to school fight for space to stop and let them out. Good thing most of the parents walk, use public transit or cycle their children to school. Otherwise, the problem would be much worse.
    Gimme that car-free living!

  20. #20
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,978
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by rockmom View Post
    Since traveling with my children by car when they were under 4 was a nightmare not lightly contemplated, walking or busing or eventually biking with them was much less stressful although not always convenient.
    Nightmarish and stressful for who, you or the children, or all concerned?

    What made traveling with your children by car so nightmarish and stressful?

  21. #21
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seville, Spain
    My Bikes
    Brompton M6R and mountain bikes equipped for touring.
    Posts
    3,156
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Nightmarish and stressful for who, you or the children, or all concerned?

    What made traveling with your children by car so nightmarish and stressful?
    Could this help to answer your questions?

    Traffic Accidents Top Cause Of Fatal Child Injuries

    Nearly a million children worldwide die every year as a result of unintentional injuries, and the biggest killer is traffic accidents, according to a report from the World Health Organization...

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=98055567
    Gimme that car-free living!

  22. #22
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,978
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    Could this help to answer your questions?
    No, it does not.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Seville, Spain
    My Bikes
    Brompton M6R and mountain bikes equipped for touring.
    Posts
    3,156
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    No, it does not.
    Then I'll spell it out for you: Cars maim and kill children, lots of them. That causes stress for both them and their parents.
    Gimme that car-free living!

  24. #24
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,978
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    Then I'll spell it out for you: Cars maim and kill children, lots of them. That causes stress for both them and their parents.
    I'll wait for Rockmom to provide an intelligent answer about her situation. Thanks anyhow for your usual spiel.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    91
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Nightmarish and stressful for who, you or the children, or all concerned?

    What made traveling with your children by car so nightmarish and stressful?
    On a bad day, I think car transportation of my two kids would be pretty stressful. On a front-box bike/trike its pretty easy to enforce the law on unruly offspring. They can get out and walk on a moment's notice! Not to mention that loading, uploading and parking is (potentially) very fast, and travel time is (generally) very predictable.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •