How about carfree zones in Chicago?
#1
Sophomoric Member
Thread Starter
How about carfree zones in Chicago?
__________________
"Think Outside the Cage"
#2
Unlisted member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 6,192
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1376 Post(s)
Liked 432 Times
in
297 Posts
They tried that on State Street (the main street in the downtown area) in the 80's when only buses were allowed to drive down the street and it didn't work too well.
#3
Custom User Title
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Posts: 11,239
Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Quintana Roo Kilo
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2863 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times
in
14 Posts
Nicollet Mall in Minneapolis is doing so well that the state government is dumping $40 million into it for "revitalization" since it's not vitalized enough on its own. I wouldn't find this infuriating if it was Minneapolis dumping money into it, but why should people throughout the entire state of MN be paying for a 12 block long car free zone in Minneapolis to be "revitalized"?
If the residents and business owners in those areas of Chicago want it than by all means let them have it.
If the residents and business owners in those areas of Chicago want it than by all means let them have it.
#4
Sophomoric Member
Thread Starter
Yeah, they mentioned State Street in the article. Do you (or anybody) remember why people thought it didn't work?
__________________
"Think Outside the Cage"
#5
Sophomoric Member
Thread Starter
Nicollet Mall in Minneapolis is doing so well that the state government is dumping $40 million into it for "revitalization" since it's not vitalized enough on its own. I wouldn't find this infuriating if it was Minneapolis dumping money into it, but why should people throughout the entire state of MN be paying for a 12 block long car free zone in Minneapolis to be "revitalized"?
If the residents and business owners in those areas of Chicago want it than by all means let them have it.
If the residents and business owners in those areas of Chicago want it than by all means let them have it.
Being as objective as you want to be, what (if anything) is good and bad about Nicollet Mall? I get that you don't like the government spending money on it, but what is the scoop on the mall itself as a shopping zone, or whatever it's supposed to be?
__________________
"Think Outside the Cage"
#6
Custom User Title
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Posts: 11,239
Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Quintana Roo Kilo
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2863 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times
in
14 Posts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicollet_Mall
I've only been there once for a job interview. It's a 12 block car free street in a commercial district that often has farmers markets and such. I don't have a problem with local government spending on it if that is what local residents want. I have issue with state funds being allocated to a 12 block district in Minneapolis that the vast majority of Minnesota residents will never go anywhere near nor see any economic benefit from.
I honestly thought that all of that was pretty clear from my first post.
I've only been there once for a job interview. It's a 12 block car free street in a commercial district that often has farmers markets and such. I don't have a problem with local government spending on it if that is what local residents want. I have issue with state funds being allocated to a 12 block district in Minneapolis that the vast majority of Minnesota residents will never go anywhere near nor see any economic benefit from.
I honestly thought that all of that was pretty clear from my first post.
#7
Unlisted member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 6,192
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1376 Post(s)
Liked 432 Times
in
297 Posts
I think it was due to several reasons. First it wasn't truly car free with full sized city buses running down the street, and also because many of the businesses on the street were having a hard time competing with the suburban shopping malls and just didn't have the sales to justify the change.
#8
Sophomoric Member
Thread Starter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicollet_Mall
I've only been there once for a job interview. It's a 12 block car free street in a commercial district that often has farmers markets and such. I don't have a problem with local government spending on it if that is what local residents want. I have issue with state funds being allocated to a 12 block district in Minneapolis that the vast majority of Minnesota residents will never go anywhere near nor see any economic benefit from.
I honestly thought that all of that was pretty clear from my first post.
I've only been there once for a job interview. It's a 12 block car free street in a commercial district that often has farmers markets and such. I don't have a problem with local government spending on it if that is what local residents want. I have issue with state funds being allocated to a 12 block district in Minneapolis that the vast majority of Minnesota residents will never go anywhere near nor see any economic benefit from.
I honestly thought that all of that was pretty clear from my first post.
__________________
"Think Outside the Cage"
#9
Custom User Title
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Posts: 11,239
Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Quintana Roo Kilo
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2863 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times
in
14 Posts
Mall: a usually public area often set with shade trees and designed as a promenade or as a pedestrian walk
#10
Sophomoric Member
Thread Starter
I notice some of the proposed Chicago carfree spots were shopping streets. There were dozens of these put in Midwestern cities in the 1950s through the 1970s. Many have since been removed. I guess they "didn't work"--at least from a carcentric definition.
__________________
"Think Outside the Cage"
#11
Sophomoric Member
Thread Starter
And now I'm going to have to go through all your old posts looking for secret messages.
__________________
"Think Outside the Cage"
Last edited by Roody; 02-14-14 at 04:12 PM.
#12
Pedalin' Erry Day
Change is always worrisome, Chicagoans just need to be shown examples of how productive and prosperous a pedestrian mall can be. In my state, Denver's 16th Street Mall (a free shuttle bus runs along it) and Boulder's Pearl Street are good examples of successful car-free shopping districts, what are some others?
#13
Custom User Title
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Posts: 11,239
Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Quintana Roo Kilo
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2863 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times
in
14 Posts
Change is always worrisome, Chicagoans just need to be shown examples of how productive and prosperous a pedestrian mall can be. In my state, Denver's 16th Street Mall (a free shuttle bus runs along it) and Boulder's Pearl Street are good examples of successful car-free shopping districts, what are some others?
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Odenton, MD
Posts: 660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think there are plenty of successful car free areas in the US, but only do well because the population that frequents them is by and large car free already: tourist destinations and college campuses and towns.
College campuses aren't strictly car free, but there are quite a few where access is limited to seniors or juniors and even then the cost can be prohibitive. Boardwalks and other tourist zones (Times Square, St Augustine, etc…) are successful despite lack of motorization. I freely admit that the student and tourist populations aren't indicative of the general public and that some of these areas aren't necessarily completely car free. It's worth exploring the things that make that kind of pedestrian environment work, though. In my opinion, high density quarters coupled with people who walk because driving is such an unrealistic option… the opposite reasons that people drive everywhere else.
I do think it's interesting that people take vacations to places they don't need a car or have to drive and consider it 'a break.' It's also worth mentioning we don't consider either group systematically crippled or isolated, unable to travel to where they need to go.
College campuses aren't strictly car free, but there are quite a few where access is limited to seniors or juniors and even then the cost can be prohibitive. Boardwalks and other tourist zones (Times Square, St Augustine, etc…) are successful despite lack of motorization. I freely admit that the student and tourist populations aren't indicative of the general public and that some of these areas aren't necessarily completely car free. It's worth exploring the things that make that kind of pedestrian environment work, though. In my opinion, high density quarters coupled with people who walk because driving is such an unrealistic option… the opposite reasons that people drive everywhere else.
I do think it's interesting that people take vacations to places they don't need a car or have to drive and consider it 'a break.' It's also worth mentioning we don't consider either group systematically crippled or isolated, unable to travel to where they need to go.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Odenton, MD
Posts: 660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Something like this is more likely to be successful in Denver where the weather is a bit nicer than in Chicago or Minneapolis where the weather sucks 4-5 months of the year. A lot less people are going to want to venture out as pedestrians when it's sub zero, snowing, and all around miserable. It can still work if the business the rest of the year is good enough though...
#16
Sophomoric Member
Thread Starter
Something like this is more likely to be successful in Denver where the weather is a bit nicer than in Chicago or Minneapolis where the weather sucks 4-5 months of the year. A lot less people are going to want to venture out as pedestrians when it's sub zero, snowing, and all around miserable. It can still work if the business the rest of the year is good enough though...
I'm just saying, there's might be a number of reasons why these pedestrian malls "don't work" but I don't think cold weather is one of the reasons.
__________________
"Think Outside the Cage"
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Odenton, MD
Posts: 660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Another neighborhood resident who identified himself as "Gary R." visibly scoffed when he heard the plan while standing on the half-mile stretch of Broadway packed with businesses and motor vehicle traffic.
"No," he said. "Why would you want to do that? This is a busy street that's been here for hundreds of years — that doesn't make any sense."
My favorite quote. Hundreds of years! It's been like this since the dawn of America herself!
"No," he said. "Why would you want to do that? This is a busy street that's been here for hundreds of years — that doesn't make any sense."
My favorite quote. Hundreds of years! It's been like this since the dawn of America herself!
#18
Sophomoric Member
Thread Starter
Another neighborhood resident who identified himself as "Gary R." visibly scoffed when he heard the plan while standing on the half-mile stretch of Broadway packed with businesses and motor vehicle traffic.
"No," he said. "Why would you want to do that? This is a busy street that's been here for hundreds of years — that doesn't make any sense."
My favorite quote. Hundreds of years! It's been like this since the dawn of America herself!
"No," he said. "Why would you want to do that? This is a busy street that's been here for hundreds of years — that doesn't make any sense."
My favorite quote. Hundreds of years! It's been like this since the dawn of America herself!
__________________
"Think Outside the Cage"
#19
Membership Not Required
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: On the road-USA
Posts: 16,855
Bikes: Giant Excursion, Raleigh Sports, Raleigh R.S.W. Compact, Motobecane? and about 20 more! OMG
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times
in
14 Posts
I know the pedestrian mall main street thing has been tried in a lot of areas, then done away with. I have a strong suspicion that is not a one size fits all situation. I know it was tried in several towns here in NC and most if not all of them have been done away with. My take on it is you have to have the right combination of stores, population size, available parking and the malls are a good ways away.
I too grew up shopping downtown areas, I still remember Christmas shopping in Huron, SD... there was a huge snow drift in the middle of the downtown area, people were pushing cars up and over. I don't doubt the perceived convenience of the mall helped to bring the downtown shopping areas down.
Aaron
I too grew up shopping downtown areas, I still remember Christmas shopping in Huron, SD... there was a huge snow drift in the middle of the downtown area, people were pushing cars up and over. I don't doubt the perceived convenience of the mall helped to bring the downtown shopping areas down.
Aaron
__________________
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
#20
Sophomoric Member
Thread Starter
I know the pedestrian mall main street thing has been tried in a lot of areas, then done away with. I have a strong suspicion that is not a one size fits all situation. I know it was tried in several towns here in NC and most if not all of them have been done away with. My take on it is you have to have the right combination of stores, population size, available parking and the malls are a good ways away.
I too grew up shopping downtown areas, I still remember Christmas shopping in Huron, SD... there was a huge snow drift in the middle of the downtown area, people were pushing cars up and over. I don't doubt the perceived convenience of the mall helped to bring the downtown shopping areas down.
Aaron
I too grew up shopping downtown areas, I still remember Christmas shopping in Huron, SD... there was a huge snow drift in the middle of the downtown area, people were pushing cars up and over. I don't doubt the perceived convenience of the mall helped to bring the downtown shopping areas down.
Aaron
What seems to be saving downtown business districts is a new mix of businesses. Here in Lansing we no longer have vacant storefronts. Every single spot is filled by a restaurant or bar. No more stores or banks, just food and liquor.
__________________
"Think Outside the Cage"
#21
vespertine member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Land of Angora, Turkey
Posts: 2,476
Bikes: Yes
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 687 Post(s)
Liked 220 Times
in
163 Posts
Something like this is more likely to be successful in Denver where the weather is a bit nicer than in Chicago or Minneapolis where the weather sucks 4-5 months of the year. A lot less people are going to want to venture out as pedestrians when it's sub zero, snowing, and all around miserable. It can still work if the business the rest of the year is good enough though...
I think that's the key: people need some reason to travel to the outdoor mall (distinctive shopping or restaurants, or maybe special events) and some easy way to get there without having to pay a lot for parking or exert themselves physically. Even Boulder's downtown mall took a hit in the mid-2000s when a bunch of businesses left for a new shopping center with free parking.
#22
Membership Not Required
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: On the road-USA
Posts: 16,855
Bikes: Giant Excursion, Raleigh Sports, Raleigh R.S.W. Compact, Motobecane? and about 20 more! OMG
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times
in
14 Posts
I think the reason the carfree malls were installed was because business was already going downhill. They weren't enough to turn it around but that doesn't mean they should take all the blame. Usually business continued downhill after they took the malls out and let the cars back in.
What seems to be saving downtown business districts is a new mix of businesses. Here in Lansing we no longer have vacant storefronts. Every single spot is filled by a restaurant or bar. No more stores or banks, just food and liquor.
What seems to be saving downtown business districts is a new mix of businesses. Here in Lansing we no longer have vacant storefronts. Every single spot is filled by a restaurant or bar. No more stores or banks, just food and liquor.
Aaron
__________________
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
1nterceptor
Advocacy & Safety
7
07-04-11 04:34 PM
folder fanatic
Living Car Free
11
03-23-10 10:34 PM