Does where you live have an effect on car-free living?
 

(Admin edit: This discussion has been branched off of this existing thread http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post16508321.)



Below is me going sideways-
Bikes for transportation folks-
need to PUSH "how to prevent bike thefts"-which means some sort of city maintained bike racks with sturdy U-Lock attachment points
and 3 wheeled bikes for oldsters-which means dedicated bike lanes-"sorta wide"
USA older the 45 Folks are over weight-perhaps not too agile-
They can't safely comfortable ride a 2 wheeled bike
but they certainly can ride an old fashioned 3 wheeler-big basket in the rear-very stable-(or even a training wheeled bike)
but those bikes are wider
and oldsters sure as heck won't ride with traffic-no VC for oldsters-laughable to even consider it
3 wheeler 65 yo-maybe some medical problems- 6-8 mph is about it-they won't ride in traffic
they need dedicated bike lanes-and a way to safely lock their bike-and a way to lock their bike outside( too heavy too bulky to haul inside)
There is waaaaay too much emphasis on 2 wheeled bikes-and the VC lane controlling elitism-strictly for extremely fit folks

You bike advocates need to think of better bikes-maybe a "kiddie type" bike with some sort of training wheels-for older folks-retractable and light so they can haul them into their home?

If you really want folks-say 20% of short -2 mile-trips to be by bike-you need different bikes-better anti theft measures-and dedicated bike lanes
Heck maybe allow/encourage side walk riding-until better lanes are available(yes I know about the problems with sidewalks-side streets, driveways-hedges etc)-
In many suburbs-side walks are EMPTY

I-LIKE-TO-BIKE- yeah safe bet they wouldn't want to be pestered by the usual sniping-I was thinking in terms of the more "nuts" forms of harassment that mainly women attract.No one has ever found me worthy of stalking

I was initially a bit mystified by this post. Then I realized that you are in the south, where you likely observe what you describe.

http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/images/br...esity-2011.gif


Bear in mind that the obesity numbers are worse than this self-reported blurb shows.

I guess we may have reached a bit of a catch-22. People are fat due in part to their lack of physical activity. Now you say they cannot engage in a simple physical activity because they are too fat and weak. What's to be done? Fortunately, cohort replacement may well rescue us. Young people are once again taking to bikes for transportation and a great many seem likely to stay with it. Old people will continue to die, with many of the inactive/obese ones doing so prematurely.

The near-future cycling landscape may depend on the rate at which young, mostly urban riders change over to car-based transportation. I'm optimistic that today's young people won't be lured into car addictions.

Are you serious??? Really ... you must be joking!!

Over 45 ..."over weight-perhaps not too agile- They can't safely comfortable ride a 2 wheeled bike"???

You say you're in your 60s ... do you ride a tricycle?

I can name hundreds of people over 45 who aren't particularly overweight and who are quite comfortable on a 2 wheeled bike. The average age on the Paris-Brest-Paris 1200K (that's an international Randonneuring event in France which attracts approx. 5000 cyclists, you might not have heard of it) is 49 years old. Yeah, sure, there are a few recumbent trikes in the crowd, and a handful of British riders like upright tricycles, but believe me, they aren't crawling along at 6-8 mph.

Even within my acquaintance in the city where I currently live, there are a lot of over 45 cyclists ... I'm one of them, so is Rowan.

As a car-free (in the past)/car-light person whose motivation is fitness, I think there should be much more of an emphasis on becoming extremely fit and strong, humans are meant to be fit and strong ... even past the old age of 45. :rolleyes:



(Maybe I should have gone wheelchair shopping instead of hitting the gym this evening)

Exactly-I'm in a suburb of NOLA- we are FAT and in general older adults-SAY 45- don't exercise here.
My point is rather than waiting for oldsters to croak,and hoping the younger folks will continue to ride
push BIKES and lanes that might appeal to these NOT YET DEAD chubby oldsters
as you say-it can only make them healthier
the health aspect could be more important than the "fewer cars in street making my city less human scale aspect

Deep south-very fat

I was a bit unclear.They/we don't want to be fat,but they love food and don't exercise+ eat lots of fast food and lots of soft drinks+ fair amount of beer.

Now why don't folks in the south like to exercise? I don't know.
Of course most exercise isn't fun-bike riding is fun but many forms of formal exercise certainly aren't fun.
And it is HOT and MUGGY here 7 months a year (over 75 yesterday after being in the 30's 5 days ago)-so for most folks that rules out riding to work.
I just don't know why folks in the south are more overweight?
Perhaps it is as simple as the temperature humidity?
But in general the south is poorly educated-and to some degree there is still an anti-education bias
A writer- national columnist-Rasberry??-suggested that blacks had gotten the anti education bias(and other mores) from the "po southern whites" they interacted with "not trusting college boys" is a theme in many movies based in the south
They were big on grains(farmers) and lived on the edge especially after the civil war-so over eating-perhaps it is a natural response to near starvation buried in their cultural memory??
But french love to eat-and they aren't fat-and safe bet fair numbers of them were close to the edge during WW2-but that was just 5 years-the south was devastated after the war-and hit by various natural problems-floods drought crop pests malaria yellow fever

Obviously I have no idea why we are fat and don't exercise(it is HOT and you sweat IMMEDIATELY when you walk outside 7 months of the year-maybe the simplest explanation is IT)
Just don't know the why.
But that chart-thanks to Bcarfree-makes it clear-the south is more overweight than other parts of country-but I see a clod weather state(MICHIGAN?) is as "fat" so there goes the "too hot to exercise" hypothesis-
and it isn't clearly poverty-since my guess is the cold state-Michigan- is more affluent?

I'm in my 30's and ride a trike! Its a pickup truck as far as I'm concerned.

It could be a poverty issue, in part. There's large areas in both rural and urban Michigan that are incredibly poor. The bigger issue I discovered in the Deep South was that many basic food items were incredibly expensive compared to other regions - cheaper almost to just eat junk. But that's a bit off topic.

The main difference I noticed in the Deep South (as opposed to other regions I've lived in) was a sort of cultural bias against doing anything physically taxing for purposes that were not purely recreational. Even cycling was marginally accepted - so long as it was only for fun. Walking/cycling for transportation...mowing the lawn...not okay. Coming out of the cultural bias was a kind of hatred and bullying of people who did these things - to the extent that it was difficult to walk across a street let alone ride to work without facing attempted homicide by vehicle, projectiles coming out of vehicles, and various insults/racial slurs (often meant to be derogatory toward racial groups I don't identify with, oddly enough.)

Don't get me wrong - there's lots of good people down there, and there's plenty of jerks in the other states. But those jerks in the other states never caused me to feel as though they wanted me harmed - they're just normal jerks. If going outside produces repeated negative feedback, you eventually learn to stop doing it. And if not enough people are cycling, walking, etc., there's no demand for infrastructure improvements that would make it safer to do so. We're stuck in a loop until something breaks.

Though honestly, that heat and humidity might be enough to keep people inside anyway. July and August...just looking outside makes you sweat. No thanks, I'll keep my blizzard :thumb:

The poverty association-
yeah certainly a connection there-
I think W Virgina-which isn't really hot-and isn't "southern"(good sense to not leave union-not many planters/slave owners) is the most overweight.
Odd I never noticed any bullying-and I have ridden as an adult since 1968-a few years-1984-1998-very little-but otherwise I have ridden nearly everyday-on streets-since 1968?
Now south louisiana is VERY different from the deep south.(Baton Rouge LSUBR isn't exactly south louisiana-but the campus area isn't like the rest of N louisiana). It is catholic-and french spanish influence-and the church for all its flaws-didn't encourage overt racial bias
but south louisiana where I lived-isn't deep south like the rest of the deep south
No protestant bible thumping influence-to speak of
But in 45 years-maybe 5 total episodes of throwing something yelling something-all but NOTHING
So I just never experienced what you did-but NOLA isn't really deep south-completely different accents(more like NYNY in fact-po irish mis-pronunciations -dees dooes den much like NYNY)

My guess on the no physical exercise for fun bias would connect it to poverty-
Physical work was considered "hard unpleasant" and once you had made it-you didn't publicly do "labor"
Yeah I can see a poverty "no exercise" connection-but I would assume it was the "physical labor means you are lower class"

But it is hot as hell here-so our heat humidity-certainly is a factor-but doesn't explain W Virginai or Michigan-
Poverty associated with physical labor-I see that connection-?? A class sort of thing
You know-the WHY- of Why fair skinned women were preferred in past centuries-meant her daddy family had enough money so she didn't have to do outside labor- maybe-
In any case-your point about poverty-strong association on that map-good point

I haven't ever noticed the bullying-but NOLA not really the SOUTH

Now yesterday there was a report of two riders- 2am-on Esplanade avenue- getting ambushed by 2 black males-
BASEBALL BATS TO THE HEAD- 2 separate incidents- blocks apart- 20 minutes apart-fractured skull shattered jaw-
The attackers didn't ROB them-it was strictly an attack-the victims-youngish-20-30 white males
Possible this is some sort of reaction to hipsters gentrifying parts of NOLA- rents are/were low in mainly black areas near the French Quarter-but young whites no doubt driving up rents-
Or maybe it is a variation on that KNOCK OUT GAME- where blacks attacking mainly older jews in NYNY? for no apparent reason-just sport??

In any case it is spooking riders in NOLA- baseball bats to head-no attempt to rob-scary-and VERY serious injuries-
Normally black on white crime is just theft-stick em up-take wallet phone electronic stuff-
but this-has folks scared
I'm in a suburb-4 miles W of NOLA-river ridge-so it is no direct concern of mine-and I rarely ride at night-but it is A HUGE DEAL for NOLA proper riders-

Heck yeah!! I'm 53. 40 mile RT commute. I plan to be very active well into old age unless I die first. It keeps me strong. I'm more fit than when in my 30s. But I'm ready to slow down when necessary. I'm just not hurrying the process. Listen to your body and know what it needs that day. I love yoga for staying in tune. I see the challenge being to doll out just the right amount of stress. Get it right and you feel stronger the next day.

Exercise is MORE important as you get older.

Use it or lose it.

This post leaves me speechless, but I'll try: Elite cyclists are some of the fittest (and most heavily medicated) athletes in the world, but you do not have to be especially fit to ride a bike around town. I see fat people riding bikes every day. As far as I can tell, being fat does not adversely affect one's balance. In many parts of the world, including many parts of the southern United States, people from all walks of life -young, old, fit, not so fit, fat, skinny, poor, middle class and rich- ride all sorts of bikes without any particular difficulty. Riding a bicycle in traffic is not an arcane art that only the initiated can master; anyone over the age of 12 can do it unsupervised with a little instruction, and even much younger children can do it with supervision. I'm completely astounded that you're suggesting that vast swaths of the adult population of this great country are completely incapable of doing something that I, my partly senile 90 year old German grandmother, my 10 year old niece, and my very fat 25 year old neighbor all do on a regular basis.

I was a bit unclear-I am more interested in getting older folks-over 45-50 riding-and I'm suggesting "changes" that might get these folks riding.

When you get a bit older-older than 60 yo- bad knees perhaps bad back neck hip- you might have a different take on this.
And being over weight-certainly does effect balance-especially starting and stopping and catching yourself at startup if you are slightly "off".I'm 180 5'5"-close to obesity-and I can "feel" it-I just don't "catch" near falls as readily as when I was 155lbs 10 years ago.

When you ride today take a look at the folks you see riding-what is the age distribution? The 50-65 cohort-hasn't really begun much of a die off yet-I suspect there are as many of them as the 20-35 cohort-but what is the relative distribution you see riding?
Sure everyone can cite some really fit oldster-they stand out because they are relatively rare.
but just what is the age distribution of riders?

Of course current upright 3 wheelers- too heavy too bulky to store too bulky to haul through doors hallways

Did you folks see that chart BCARFREE POSTED? We are one of the fattest countries on earth-and we are getting fatter.

I'm a bit surprised to get so much grief when I assumed age and overweight was a factor -heck even called "a hate rant against older folks"
HATE RANT??!!

You should check your writing style. Earlier posts sounded shrill and exaggerated, and were off-putting. This one sounds much more reasonable.

Might have a point.
Still I'm surprised most folks don't see that standard 2 wheeled bikes aren't suitable for older and or obese folks.
And USA- we have plenty of both.
Perhaps some sort of training wheel type bike-with retractable wheels to allow easy storage and moving thru doorways.
The bike weight vs stability-tricky-a 50 lb bike not too useful for an older person-

My 80 year FIL still rides a bike, I am past 50 and still ride regularly, I know several morbidly obese (per their doctor's) that ride bikes, all be it not far, but they are riding. I think you are underestimating a lot of people. There is a sizable segment of the population that could care less that they are obese and are not going to do anything about it. If people really want to ride they won't let much stand in their way. I raced many years ago, there were a set of twin brothers that were in their 70's that were racing in our club, one rode fixed gear the other a Jack Taylor racing trike, they were faster than most of the junior riders and many of the riders in the 25-30 year old group. :D

Aaron :)

45 is not "older." Maybe if you were talking about people who were 75 or 80, you could call them "older." I've been hopelessly unathletic since childhood, and I started riding a bike at 52, after not having been on one since I was barely out of my teens.

You're just digging a bigger hole for yourself.... I'm 52. I'm not that fit, but I ride almost every day. Again, almost anyone can do it, even people over 45.

I agree that riding a bike in traffic isn't something that requires superhuman skills. I do find it somewhat interesting that the people who are objecting to the OP's characterization of the difficulty of riding in traffic for obese and older people (who happen to be younger than me) are often the first in line to claim that we need segregated infrastructure in order to make cycling available to the masses. At the risk of having I Like TB agree with me on something, there may be a bit of groupthink going on here.

Older than what? 45 years old? 55 years old? 90 years old?

Most of the people in my office are over 45 ... and most of them are fit enough to ride a 2-wheeled bicycle. In fact, many of them do.

I'm over 45 and I'm fitter than I was when I was 22.

Do you seriously think that 45 is old???


45 is the new 35 ... 55 is the new 45 ... 65 is the new 55. No more are we destined to park ourselves in a rocking chair the day after our retirement at 65 ... in fact, retirement ages are going up because we're still fit enough to work.

I agree with you ... I don't think we need segregated infrastructure in order to make cycling available to the masses. Generally, I think segregation is detrimental to cycling.

And I disagree. Although separate bike paths beside roads aren't much fun with homicidal drivers such as found in the US, its perfect where lots of regular people are actually riding bikes. Riding with the cars on a regular basis is only OK for a small part of the population.

Unfortunately segregated bicycle paths have two problems ...

1) They take cyclists away from the drivers, so that drivers don't know how to integrate with cyclists when they do appear on the road.

2) They present a huge issue for cyclists who want to ride on the road. When drivers know that there is a segregated bicycle path near the road, the "Get OFF the Road" yells and honks are much more prevalent.

It's an issue I have had to deal with on several occasions. I'm a road rider (most of the time). I ride a bicycle with narrow road tires. And I want to ride briskly. I do not want to ride slowly on a gravelly segregated paths, and I don't appreciated being yelled at to get off my nice smooth road onto the gravelly segregated path.


That said, I do think it is nice to have some segregated cycling facilities for families with small children, and for short, slow recreational rides. Little paths through parks and the like.

I also think that roads should have shoulders ... main roads within cities, and all A and B highways.



But this part of the discussion belongs in Advocacy and Safety. :)

All true. BUT... the way I see it, a place like Copenhagen (where I bike commuted for 4.5 years) is on one side of the scale, and most any car-dominated city (including Oslo, where I currently bike-commute) is on the opposite. Between these is an unhappy middle ground. With few bikes, the bikers will tend to be hardcore and fit, aware of their surroundings, with lots of special equipment, so they ride fine with cars. With hordes of everyday riders, they are marginally fit, wearing headphones or otherwise inattentive, might even have hoods up over their heads (tunnel vision), they wear regular clothes and don't want to be sweaty, have heavy slow bikes with crappy lights, and generally have no business sharing space with cars. In this case, the separate infrastructure is hugely beneficial. I'm confident that no place will ever get regular people on bikes if they need to share space with cars in a serious way. Maybe if the cars are going really slow.

Of course in the central areas of Copenhagen, its hardly possible to ride a bike quickly, and fast bikers are likely going to be regarded as idiots by drivers and fellow bikers alike.

Also, relevant to the thread, there is no trend in Copenhagen for fat or un-fit people to ride trikes. :) Mostly parents and those they are too old to safely balance any longer.

Wow

Sure everyone knows folks over 60 who ride-a lot.
But just LOOK at the ages of adults you see riding today.
And bike lanes- are thought to be safer-and perception is what counts for inexperienced older potential riders.

Of course the real problem with bike lanes in cities is cost and space.
So bike lanes are a pipe dream in all but affluent cities or neighborhoods that are aiming for that Euro "human scale" appeal-which only the affluent can afford-rents go up as appeal goes up. Manhattan -San Francisco etc
But lanes -segregated bike lanes-waaaaay too expensive for most cities ,so.....

Well, my bike is my transportation, so I ride around my area nearly every day. I see cyclists of all ages from teens to white-haired elders, and their ages appear to be pretty evenly spread across the spectrum. Many ride cheap bikes. Most look like they ride for commuting or basic transportation.

As for the perception that bike lanes are safer, it doesn't appear that many people believe that. About half of the adult cyclists I see are riding on the sidewalk, even when there is a good bike lane right beside it. Those who do use the bike lanes are people who would likely ride in the road if there were no bike lanes. (Use of bike lanes, where they exist, is mandatory in California. Sidewalk riding is legal in my city but I don't ride there.) Our local bike lanes range in quality from flawed but mostly acceptable to excellent. Since the area is primarily suburban, cars tend to remain parked in one place for extended periods and the door zone is less hazardous than it would be in dense urban traffic. Fortunately, our downtown area does not have bike lanes, so you can just take the lane.

No, they're a great bargain. Carrying on with car-centric infrastructure is what will eventually break the bank.

i love bike lanes.I only get to use them when we occasionally drive to Flagstaff AZ- and I love them.
In the long run perhaps they are cheaper.
But in the short run you have to convince a cash strapped city to "steal" street -and since bikes are seem as a "Progressive issue" you now have built in resistance from Republicans-roughly 49% of the electorate- and the dominant force in the majority of states.
Bike lanes are a tough sell in much of the USA-

It's very similar here, 2300 miles away. Most transportation cyclists ride cheap bikes while wearing normal street clothes. They ride almost exclusively on the sidewalk or on our very nice MUPs. There is a subset--most appear to be 30- to 60-something--who ride nicer bikes and wear at least helmets, if not other conservative cycling apparel. This group mostly rides in the bike lane or vehicularly.

One time I was riding in a bike lane. I passed an older lady riding (a two-wheeler) at a pretty good pace on the sidewalk. She yelled at me to get out of the road. I slowed down to ask her why she wanted me out of the road. "Because you'll get killed, you fool!"

I'm car-lite, 51 yrs old.

I leave early in the morning (usually before 5am) to ride 15~ miles to work. I usually go multi-modal OR take a different route (17+ miles) to avoid riding on a couple of streets in the afternoons. If I need to go to the grocery store, about a mile away from my house (in the opposite direction of the office), in the afternoon/evenings I drive the car.
I would rather ride the bike but the driver attitudes toward cyclist and the lack of any infrastructure other than a busy two lane road with no shoulder and a 40mph speed suggestion is prohibitive.
I've tried it on several occasions, the close 'punish passes', horn honking, and yelling just sucks all of the joy out of it.

On this list; ya think?