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Are you Entitled to a New Car?

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Living Car Free Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here.

Are you Entitled to a New Car?

Old 04-17-14, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mrodgers
Even with rural, a brand new car doesn't make sense. Estimate $21k for a new car, $18k for a 2 year old car, and $11 on a 5 year old with equivalent say, 12k per year kind of mileage on them. My wife, and occasionally me, puts 25,000 miles on her car per year. I cut it off at 200,000 because that is the time when it seems I am underneath the car working on it more than driving it. That gives me figures for per year of $2625 for 8 years on the new car, $2571/year for 7 years on the 2 year old, and $1833/year for about 5.5 years on the 5 year old car. That doesn't include repairs because all cars would be driven through the same later mileage up to 200k. Still cheaper to buy the older used car.
I paid $0.75 a ride on the subway in Seoul. That got me anywhere in the whole city. When I lived in a rural town in Korea I paid the same for bus fair. It took a little longer than the subway and wasnt as comfortable but it worked just fine. I doubt I spent more than a few hundred dollars a year on transportation costs let alone the several hundred dollars a month it costs for basic transportation in the US.

Sure, buying a used car is significantly less expensive to own and operate than a new car. However, these prices are insane for what should be a fundamental human right, the freedom of movement. You could say that cars are not part of the freedom of movement, people can walk and ride their bikes etc... but only at the risk of being murdered by drivers with attention problems. Try walking across your town sometime end to end. My town doesnt even have sidewalks in most places. This limits movement except to those who own cars or are brave.

I dont think that cars are a right, at all. However, in a country where everything is predicated on the assumption of automobility, the right to have affordable cars available for sale becomes more legitimate.
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Old 04-17-14, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by zeppinger
I paid $0.75 a ride on the subway in Seoul. That got me anywhere in the whole city. When I lived in a rural town in Korea I paid the same for bus fair. It took a little longer than the subway and wasnt as comfortable but it worked just fine. I doubt I spent more than a few hundred dollars a year on transportation costs let alone the several hundred dollars a month it costs for basic transportation in the US.
If I wanted to take the bus to work, I would have to drive 5 miles past work, catch the bus, and ride the bus 5 miles back to arrive at work. I live rural, no bus, no subway, no taxi, no airplane, and now with the new bike at average of almost 9 mph on the road up and down all the hills (as opposed to 5 mph on my old bike last year), it would take me 2.2 hours to get to work and a bit longer to get home. I'm not getting up at 3 am to go to work and getting home at 7 pm, take care of the kids all night, go to bed at 11 or midnight for 3-4 hours of sleep, then doing it all again tomorrow. A car is a necessity.
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Old 04-17-14, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by mrodgers
If I wanted to take the bus to work, I would have to drive 5 miles past work, catch the bus, and ride the bus 5 miles back to arrive at work. I live rural, no bus, no subway, no taxi, no airplane, and now with the new bike at average of almost 9 mph on the road up and down all the hills (as opposed to 5 mph on my old bike last year), it would take me 2.2 hours to get to work and a bit longer to get home. I'm not getting up at 3 am to go to work and getting home at 7 pm, take care of the kids all night, go to bed at 11 or midnight for 3-4 hours of sleep, then doing it all again tomorrow. A car is a necessity.
A car is a necessity, in the US, by design, not just because.
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Old 04-17-14, 09:03 AM
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There's no reason for anyone to buy a brand new car. Even a 10 year old car can require minimal maintenance (oil changes every 4k, complete tune up incl water pump and belt every 100k). I live in a very rural town in NY, a car is necessary for the winter but in the summer I have no problems with my 20 mile one way commute or 10-15 mile ride to the store. If I need to go someplace out of town that's what my car is for, paid for and insured at the lowest possible costs. I do all the work on it myself, so I save on labor costs. It seems every recent project is a learning experience for me though as I was only used to tire rotations, oil changes, tune ups, and brake work. So what if it takes me an hour or three longer than a certified mechanic, I don't have anything better to do after work and on the weekends to justify the $100+ an hour labor cost. With the depreciation value of cars dropping every day, I'd rather fix a problem for hundreds of dollars rather than buy a new one for thousands.
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Old 04-17-14, 12:42 PM
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I agree Mike. Imo, a properly maintained car (made during the last 20 years) with 100k miles is at least as reliable as some brand-new cars of the '70s and '80s. A case in point is the '95 Chevy truck that I bought in '02 for $3k. This truck had ~190K miles on it at the time and my wife and I drove it for more than 10 years while putting another 75k on it. During that time I did little more than than 1 full tune-up, 2 minor tunes, a new radiator and hoses, 1 minor brake job, an alternator and serpentine belt, 1 steering idler arm, and a total of 6 tires (a worn idler arm prematurely worn out the 2 front tires that it came with). Sold it it to my wife's coworker/friend last year for $2K (probably could have got at least $2.5 for it otherwise).
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Old 04-17-14, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeRides
There's no reason for anyone to buy a brand new car. Even a 10 year old car can require minimal maintenance (oil changes every 4k, complete tune up incl water pump and belt every 100k).
Your own comments on a thread that you originated does not jive with these comments. Having a vehicle that is laid up for months on end while waiting for the time, parts or money to fix it sufficiently to be reliable enough to get to/from work or more than 5 miles from home, does not make a case for buying 10 year old cars.
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Old 04-17-14, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by FMB42
I agree Mike. Imo, a properly maintained car (made during the last 20 years) with 100k miles is at least as reliable as some brand-new cars of the '70s and '80s. A case in point is the '95 Chevy truck that I bought in '02 for $3k. This truck had ~190K miles on it at the time and my wife and I drove it for more than 10 years while putting another 75k on it. During that time I did little more than than 1 full tune-up, 2 minor tunes, a new radiator and hoses, 1 minor brake job, an alternator and serpentine belt, 1 steering idler arm, and a total of 6 tires (a worn idler arm prematurely worn out the 2 front tires that it came with). Sold it it to my wife's coworker/friend last year for $2K (probably could have got at least $2.5 for it otherwise).
Almost all of your posts are about cars. Are you having trouble grasping the concept of a carfree forum? Maybe you thought they were giving away free cars?
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Old 04-17-14, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
Almost all of your posts are about cars. Are you having trouble grasping the concept of a carfree forum? Maybe you thought they were giving away free cars?
Ironically, the car free sub-forum probably has more threads devoted to cars than any other on bikeforums.net.
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Old 04-17-14, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RPK79
Ironically, the car free sub-forum probably has more threads devoted to cars than any other on bikeforums.net.
Its our own fault if we don't even point it out.
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Old 04-17-14, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
However, what really worries me folks are all the people getting new cars with "sub-prime" loans. I had no idea people with little money can actually buy a new car with a high interest loan that does not pay principle?? I also read these loans could very well create a bubble that can expload with the banks not having funds to create more loans. A very similar situation to the real estate collapse.
I recently got a letter from my life insurance company that my policy had been transferred to another company. This seems harmless but probably my payment history was sold as a type of futures-commodity to the new company. The old company effectively borrowed money against credit that I had built up for them by keeping up my payments.

Why wouldn't car loans be used in the same way? Not only can investors trade your debt on a vehicle, things like warranties provide contract security for parts manufacturers/suppliers so that they can take out loans from banks who are willing to believe that nothing will happen to undermine the contracts they have to provide parts and service, etc.

Insurance companies profit tremendously from accidents. Yes, they lose some money paying the parts suppliers, repair services, etc. that fix the damages vehicles but then they raise premiums and recoup that money with profit after the fact.

Considering all these automotive industries rely on people not giving up their cars when, for example, they lose income, have accidents, etc. there is certainly an incentive for eliminating public transit and lobbying for infrastructure that is as car-friendly and car-alternative unfriendly as possible. Securing flows of capital and spending are more important to many people than freedom to make healthier choices and to escape rising debt and indenturement to insurance rates, etc.

It's really sad that practically anything can be turned into a debt-leash to indenture people into making payments for some term and it's even sadder that these indenturement contracts can be traded the same as any other commodity-future. I wonder why no one has ever invoked the 13th amendment with regard to debt-practices. I suppose the idea is that if slavery as a birth-debt would be eliminated, then people would be free to refuse offers of indenturement in exchange for future earnings. The question is why so many people feel that they are not really free from taking on such debt and what it would take to free them, if not.

Last edited by CbadRider; 04-18-14 at 08:21 AM. Reason: Removed political comments
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Old 04-17-14, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by RPK79
Ironically, the car free sub-forum probably has more threads devoted to cars than any other on bikeforums.net.
That has been pointed out more than once; the same old posters keep at it, while others deny it or alternatively say Car Talk is on topic if they are the posters of the same old rant about car expenses.

Same applies to posting about political and sociology subjects only tangentially related (if at all) to car free living.
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Old 04-17-14, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
It's really sad that practically anything can be turned into a debt-leash to indenture people into making payments for some term and it's even sadder that these indenturement contracts can be traded the same as any other commodity-future. I wonder why no one has ever invoked the 13th amendment with regard to debt-practices. I suppose the idea is that if slavery as a birth-debt would be eliminated, then people would be free to refuse offers of indenturement in exchange for future earnings. The question is why so many people feel that they are not really free from taking on such debt and what it would take to free them, if not.
+1

The auto loan looks like the last financial instrument left to exploit since over 6.4 million mortgages are still underwater. This is all part of what I consider the pooring of America as corporate entities seek to extract the last dollar (even if it's borrowed) from the public.

The last question you made is truly the underlying heart of the carfree movement. Why so many people feel they need to take on massive debt to buy "freedom" is due to programming. Americans are programmed by watching billions spent on automotive commercials each year. Most of society constructed their lives dependant on personal motorized transport and nothing is going to change this. However, it appears to be running it's course as the current generation of Americans are starting to break away from traditional car ownership due to of all things poverty.

The reason I posted this thread is due to the fact that most Americans cannot afford brand new motor transport. I also believe in 50 years, most Americans will not be able to afford used motor transport as the situation gets worse for future generations.

Dave Ramsey is a wake up call for forum members who are upside down on their new cars.
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Old 04-17-14, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
That has been pointed out more than once; the same old posters keep at it, while others deny it or alternatively say Car Talk is on topic if they are the posters of the same old rant about car expenses.

Same applies to posting about political and sociology subjects only tangentially related (if at all) to car free living.
We have threads on walking or taking the bus. However, the discussion soon deteriorates as the motor centrist attack public transit as they cannot walk in their neighborhood.

I will continue to report on articles regarding the high cost of motoring. In fact, the lack of capital probably created more car free individuals than any other reason. Still, I want everyone to contribute because once the thread expands, it has a much greater chance of being read by those who are on the fence of becoming carfree.
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Old 04-17-14, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
We have threads on walking or taking the bus. However, the discussion soon deteriorates as the motor centrist attack public transit as they cannot walk in their neighborhood.

I will continue to report on articles regarding the high cost of motoring. In fact, the lack of capital probably created more car free individuals than any other reason. Still, I want everyone to contribute because once the thread expands, it has a much greater chance of being read by those who are on the fence of becoming carfree.
Keep up the good work, Steve. I think we all need to be a little more assertive when people start pushing their car-centric POVs. They certainly have a right to express their opinions, but so do we. Lately I feel like I have to walk on eggshells so I don't offend somebody who loves cars. But enough is enough!

We have had several threads, including polls, on why people are carfree. Clearly the number one reason is to save money. Once people realize how much it actually costs to own a car, they are usually surprised. When they learn how inexpensive the alternatives are, they are interested. Then when they learn how they can have a high quality life with one car or zero cars, they often become motivated to be carfree or carlight. So I agree with you that talking about the "hidden costs" (or real costs) of car ownership is relevant on this forum.
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Old 04-17-14, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
The OP asked: Are you Entitled to a New Car? In a word yes. If an entitlement is a guarantee of access to something then... sure all Americans are entitled to prosperity... and all the trappings that come with it.

Almost all possessions are also a responsibly. Often possessions, like cars and houses are also a custodial responsibly. They require time, effort, and money. It's very easy to plan, manage, or guess wrong when allocating resources. It doesn't surprise me when people bite off a little more responsibly than they effectively manage.
I don't agree with your "if". Usually the word "entitlement" carries the implication that the world (or society) owes you something. In that sense, nobody is entitled to a luxury item like a new car, unless they actuallly are owed it - for example if they had one stolen and under their policy they are entitled to get a replacement one from their insurance company.
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Old 04-18-14, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
The auto loan looks like the last financial instrument left to exploit since over 6.4 million mortgages are still underwater. This is all part of what I consider the pooring of America as corporate entities seek to extract the last dollar (even if it's borrowed) from the public.
I see this mentality a lot in public discussions, that America is being 'poored.' I think it's a dangerous viewpoint because it enables people to consider themselves victims on a collective (national) level, which gives them the feeling that it's not their fault/responsibility individually and thus promotes scapegoating. This is what happened in the 1930s among Germans who couldn't accept economic decline going on. Debt was part of that situation too, as it now seems to be for Greece, and part of the problem was that debt was levied at the national level as a response to WWI. US national debt has also been emphasized for the last 20 years or so, not as a punishment for war, but as a consequence of imbalanced government spending.

The question is whether people can come to terms with the idea of 'pooring' for the sake of escaping the cycles of debt and repayment at so many levels. For me personally, living car free does not feel like 'pooring' because the money saved on auto expenses makes me that much richer. Maybe to some people, having a new car and spending a lot of money otherwise makes them feel rich even if the money they're spending is all borrowed. From my perspective, prosperity comes as you grow more independent of debt and spending generally. Living car free is a big part of this for me. If I for some reason gave in to all the peer pressure that I get to drive, it would feel like it was 'pooring' because I would see it as backsliding into a budget that is more likely to drown me in expenses and debt, not to mention imprisoning me in a metal cage with windows and a sleekly-designed interior for a significant portion of my time.
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Old 04-18-14, 05:32 AM
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You are entitled to seek employment so as to support yourself. If this includes buying a new car with your own money, then fine.

You are not, or should not be, entitled to expect others to buy a new car for you.
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Old 04-18-14, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FMB42
You are entitled to seek employment so as to support yourself...
What if the only job you can find requires you to have a car, or is located in a place that is accessible only by car? What if you can't even "seek" employment without a car? By your logic, it seems that you would then be entitled to a car.
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Old 04-18-14, 06:10 AM
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Americans are victims on a national level of a vast transfer of wealth to the top 1%. The percentage of the nation's wealth held by average Americans has dropped from around 40% to around 25% over the last 3 decades.

No one is "entitled" to anything, but there was for much of my life an implicit social contract that if you got an education and worked hard, you would be rewarded with a 'middle class' lifestyle. The house, the car, the vacation at the beach. With real income for working Americans declining, that is no longer a reality. But we have a consumer based economy which will collapse if working Americans stop spending. Increased debt must therefore be encouraged in order to keep the economy functional.

It can't last forever, of course. Increasing consumer debt is a short term political measure that only ameliorates the fundamental problems for a brief period.
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Old 04-18-14, 07:02 AM
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I like cars-vehicles-love them
but with the economy for the middle class being soooo poor-
and with repairs no longer being DIY-A-BLE-used cars are frequently too expensive also-
it is the WHY of why po folks are driving around in large older gas guzzling pickups SUVs etc
at least those vehicles are DIY-A-BLE- and you can make a $$ with them hauling things etc

Yeah-the crummy economy-and the credit card industry-has done a wealth transfer from middle class to upper upper class-
Financial types cream money from almost EVERY transaction in the USA
same folks who crashed us in 2008-and slowly drained manufacturing job-
perhaps rising wages and poor QC and labor unrest in the 3rd world will return manufacturing jobs
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Old 04-18-14, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by cooker
I don't agree with your "if". Usually the word "entitlement" carries the implication that the world (or society) owes you something. In that sense, nobody is entitled to a luxury item like a new car, unless they actuallly are owed it - for example if they had one stolen and under their policy they are entitled to get a replacement one from their insurance company.
I understand... but Wikipedia is generally somewhat acceptable for such things... and where I got the definition. I am sure I could find other references that would imply people actually have a Right to own an automobile... in their pursuit of happiness. Certainly... no one expects to find much happiness without the pleasures of what... at least some would call a "luxury". Luxury is NOT a four letter word (I count six letters). But even if that term is acceptable... even a bicycle.... is a luxury in some parts of the world.

Attaching the word "luxury" to a item, device, or activity... doesn't exclude it from being an entitlement or right. My bicycle may just be a fat old mans expensive toy (according to some). But I DEMAND my right to own [and use on the streets and roads] a bicycle for which I am entitled to use.

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Old 04-18-14, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Roody
What if the only job you can find requires you to have a car, or is located in a place that is accessible only by car? What if you can't even "seek" employment without a car?
You're missing the key point here. The title of this thread is; Are you Entitled to a New Car?

Again, the key words here are "new car". Few, if any, people truly need a new car. And nobody should be entitled to a new car.
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Old 04-18-14, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by FMB42
You're missing the key point here. The title of this thread is; Are you Entitled to a New Car?

Again, the key words here are "new car". Few, if any, people truly need a new car. And nobody should be entitled to a new car.
Nobody, anywhere is claiming that anybody is "entitled" to a new car; except for the OP and his use of that term in order in the title of this thread, presumably to stir up the LCF choir and draw more responses to his Car Talk threads.
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Old 04-18-14, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Nobody, anywhere is claiming that anybody is "entitled" to a new car; except for the OP...
My response is to the OP. If you don't like the OP's threads, then either close them or ignore them...
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Old 04-18-14, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
Attaching the word "luxury" to a item, device, or activity... doesn't exclude it from being an entitlement or right. My bicycle may just be a fat old mans expensive toy (according to some). But I DEMAND my right to own [and use on the streets and roads] a bicycle for which I am entitled to use.
A *new* car is more of a luxury than most bicycles.

Sure, you have a right to pursue happiness (at least according to some old parchment), and of course you are entitled to use the roads, as they are created from public funds for public use. You're even entitled to own a car - new or not - if you can afford it, as nobody is suggesting somehow denying people that right.

But I don't think you would argue that someone who can't afford a new car is somehow still entitled to one. I think that is the crux of the issue in this thread.

Last edited by cooker; 04-18-14 at 11:39 AM.
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