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  1. #1
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    Is this as good as doing it on my bike?

    I just drove and got my case of beer in my car today and the engine never started up...
    He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts...for support rather than illumination. I do like my beer, so sometimes I do end up leaning on the lamp-post...

  2. #2
    In the right lane gerv's Avatar
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    You didn't pour the beer in that funnel at the rear of the car, did you? That's not how to transport beer.

  3. #3
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    No way... I am drinking it right now... Anyways the reason I started this thread is that this is the FIRST TIME, I EVER, drove a vehicle in 42 years, and it didn't use a drop of gas to do the drive... Yes, Yes, I know it still has a carbon footprint but, really, no gas was used to do my errand... Now I am thinking I should have bought a plug in... And yes, when the weather gets even better I would ride the bike to do it.
    He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts...for support rather than illumination. I do like my beer, so sometimes I do end up leaning on the lamp-post...

  4. #4
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's just as good as riding a bike except a couple minor details...

    Like the toxic salts and weird metals in the battery, which we have no way of handling safely at disposal time. Or the fact that in most parts of the world you're just switching your energy supply from gasoline to coal (which is much worse) or natural gas (which is only a little better). And you're not doing anything about car related problems like congestion and storage space (parking). And a lot of other stuff I could mention, but shouldn't have to.

    Do you seriously believe that a hybrid car is as "good as" a bike, or is this thread a troll?
    Last edited by Roody; 04-21-14 at 06:13 AM.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  5. #5
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Yeah, it's just as good as riding a bike except a couple minor details...

    Like the toxic salts and weird metals in the battery, which we have no way of handling safely at disposal time. Or the fact that in most parts of the world you're just switching your energy supply from gasoline to coal (which is much worse) or natural gas (which is only a little better). And you're not doing anything about car related problems like congestion and storage space (parking). And a lot of other stuff I could mention, but shouldn't have to.

    Do you seriously believe that a hybrid car is as "good as" a bike, or is this thread a troll?
    Bad day at work, Roody? You're dumping on everyone.

  6. #6
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    I know it isn't as good as doing it on a bike, I was being facetious... I was soo pumped when I got home and realized that I drove the car and it didn't use any gas for that trip that I had to tell others about it. Any car will always have a bigger carbon footprint than a bike, so it will never be better... but some type of cars have less than other types.
    He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts...for support rather than illumination. I do like my beer, so sometimes I do end up leaning on the lamp-post...

  7. #7
    Pedaled too far. Artkansas's Avatar
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    Step 2 is to calculate how the power you used was generated. Atomic energy, coal, natural gas, solar?
    "He who serves all, best serves himself" Jack London

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjforrestal View Post
    I don't care if you are on a unicycle, as long as you're not using a motor to get places you get props from me. We're here to support each other. Share ideas, and motivate one another to actually keep doing it.

  8. #8
    Pedaled too far. Artkansas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerv View Post
    You didn't pour the beer in that funnel at the rear of the car, did you? That's not how to transport beer.
    How do you think NASCAR got started.
    "He who serves all, best serves himself" Jack London

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjforrestal View Post
    I don't care if you are on a unicycle, as long as you're not using a motor to get places you get props from me. We're here to support each other. Share ideas, and motivate one another to actually keep doing it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artkansas View Post
    Step 2 is to calculate how the power you used was generated. Atomic energy, coal, natural gas, solar?
    It was generated by the drive before, re-gen braking, re-gen coasting, and the gas motor generator during that drive...
    He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts...for support rather than illumination. I do like my beer, so sometimes I do end up leaning on the lamp-post...

  10. #10
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artkansas View Post
    Step 2 is to calculate how the power you used was generated. Atomic energy, coal, natural gas, solar?
    I just read a comprehensive and critical article about electric vehicles. It was written by Ozzie Zehner, an engineer/scientist who helped to develop GM's discontinued EV1 electric vehicle.

    Unclean at Any Speed - IEEE Spectrum


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  11. #11
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    You can say the same thing about riding a bike as compared to public transit or a car... There's lots of levels of pollution. bottom line, walking is about as good as it can get, anything else is unsustainable in the long run, they need mines, factories, fuel, yes even bikes are not as eco friendly as most people think... JMO
    He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts...for support rather than illumination. I do like my beer, so sometimes I do end up leaning on the lamp-post...

  12. #12
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
    You can say the same thing about riding a bike as compared to public transit or a car... There's lots of levels of pollution. bottom line, walking is about as good as it can get, anything else is unsustainable in the long run, they need mines, factories, fuel, yes even bikes are not as eco friendly as most people think... JMO
    I think cycling is sustainable. JMO
    Gimme that car-free living!

  13. #13
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
    You can say the same thing about riding a bike as compared to public transit or a car... There's lots of levels of pollution. bottom line, walking is about as good as it can get, anything else is unsustainable in the long run, they need mines, factories, fuel, yes even bikes are not as eco friendly as most people think... JMO
    I agree that ultimately bikes are unsustainable. The "long run" for their sustainability is probably something like 10,000 years.

    Cars are sustainable, if we are lucky, for 20 or 30 years.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    I think cycling is sustainable. JMO
    Yes, it would seem like that... And may actually be, but, what would happen when oil runs out, the mines close, the factories close, etc... Getting the things to make the bike would become harder and harder, transporting anything grinds down to a crawl, eventually everyone walking, riding a horse can be more likely...
    He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts...for support rather than illumination. I do like my beer, so sometimes I do end up leaning on the lamp-post...

  15. #15
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
    Yes, it would seem like that... And may actually be, but, what would happen when oil runs out, the mines close, the factories close, etc... Getting the things to make the bike would become harder and harder, transporting anything grinds down to a crawl, eventually everyone walking, riding a horse can be more likely...
    If we're smart and careful (for example, driving drastically less and using less electricity), the day when we run out of those resources will be a very long time coming.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I just read a comprehensive and critical article about electric vehicles. It was written by Ozzie Zehner, an engineer/scientist who helped to develop GM's discontinued EV1 electric vehicle.

    Unclean at Any Speed - IEEE Spectrum
    I read this unclean at any speed... And wow, it reminds me of when the cigarette companies "proved" that smoking was not a problem, didn't cause cancer, didn't cause anything. And there was dozens of scientists/doctors swearing to that at inquiries about smoking by governments all over the world. I would suggest big oil has a lot of $ to spend, just like big tobacco companies did... JMO Now, certainly electric cars won't save our bacon but really? They are worse than gasoline cars?
    He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts...for support rather than illumination. I do like my beer, so sometimes I do end up leaning on the lamp-post...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    If we're smart and careful (for example, driving drastically less and using less electricity), the day when we run out of those resources will be a very long time coming.
    Yes, the timeline is up in the air, but...
    He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts...for support rather than illumination. I do like my beer, so sometimes I do end up leaning on the lamp-post...

  18. #18
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
    Yes, the timeline is up in the air, but...
    Maybe, but every year my estimation of the probability that humanity will save itself shrinks closer to zero.

    We have endless tricks to delude ourselves that we are doing something constructive about the problems of pollution and resource depletion. IMO, electric cars are one of those tricks we use to fool ourselves.


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Maybe, but every year my estimation of the probability that humanity will save itself shrinks closer to zero.

    We have endless tricks to delude ourselves that we are doing something constructive about the problems of pollution and resource depletion. IMO, electric cars are one of those tricks we use to fool ourselves.
    Can't really disagree, but, got to keep trying, just imagine, a battery/solar panel breakthrough... That would allow a car to drive directly off sunlight with storage for cloudy/nighttime driving, not a drop of oil used for the life of the car to drive it around... Yes, these electric cars are nowhere as good as most people hope, but every year they get better and better, one day boom, a barrier is overcome and presto, main problem solved...

    EDIT Big oil sure in not going to rock the boat, we must invest our $ in what may change things, I could have bought a car almost as good MPG for $10,000 les, but I chose to invest in a technology that I hope will change things for the better, once mature... JMO
    Last edited by 350htrr; 04-21-14 at 08:18 PM. Reason: expand on idea
    He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts...for support rather than illumination. I do like my beer, so sometimes I do end up leaning on the lamp-post...

  20. #20
    In the right lane gerv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    We have endless tricks to delude ourselves that we are doing something constructive about the problems of pollution and resource depletion.
    Still with all the modelling software available, you'd think that these delusions could be dealt with in a cold, mathematical fashion. I'm sure if you throw all the variables in to a model, run it forward a few years, the answer should be simple.

    Fact is that we aren't interested in solving the equations that point us in the direction of salvation. It's quicker to throw up something that sounds great on first glance... as long as it doesn't rock the boat too much.

  21. #21
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerv View Post
    Still with all the modelling software available, you'd think that these delusions could be dealt with in a cold, mathematical fashion. I'm sure if you throw all the variables in to a model, run it forward a few years, the answer should be simple.

    Fact is that we aren't interested in solving the equations that point us in the direction of salvation. It's quicker to throw up something that sounds great on first glance... as long as it doesn't rock the boat too much.
    The modeling has been done, the scientists agree on the direness of the situation and policy wonks agree that much more must be done quickly. But still, the Koch brothers and other interest groups do much to drown out people who speak with knowledge and common sense.

    As for modeling the pollution caused by consumer goods over their lifespans, it's a very complex problem. It will take time and research funding to get beyond the current crude state of lifespan analysis.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  22. #22
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    If we're smart and careful (for example, driving drastically less and using less electricity), the day when we run out of those resources will be a very long time coming.

    10294369_10201462227507699_1875598384657342407_n.jpg
    Gimme that car-free living!

  23. #23
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    The modeling has been done, the scientists agree on the direness of the situation and policy wonks agree that much more must be done quickly. But still, the Koch brothers and other interest groups do much to drown out people who speak with knowledge and common sense.
    They're going after renewable energy: The Koch brothers are going after solar panels - Salon.com
    Last edited by Ekdog; 04-22-14 at 02:02 PM.
    Gimme that car-free living!

  24. #24
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I agree that ultimately bikes are unsustainable. The "long run" for their sustainability is probably something like 10,000 years.

    Cars are sustainable, if we are lucky, for 20 or 30 years.
    I don't think bikes are necessarily unsustainable if numbers in use are stable and recycling/recovery processes continue to improve. The metal components and tires could eventually be largely recycled with minimal loss of material and any new metal needed might eventually be extracted from renewable sources like seawater or lava, etc. As well, over time natural materials like bamboo or sustainable engineered materials could replace part of both the metal and non-metal components, including tires. So we might reach a point where bicycles could be sustainably produced forever.
    Last edited by cooker; 04-22-14 at 08:10 AM.

  25. #25
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    I think a bicycle is going to win the sustainability race hands down due to the longevity and the minimal amount of materials needed to make one. I would be willing to wager that my bicycle contains less material than the average sized car wheel. As far as longevity, I have a 1971 Raleigh Sports that has well over 35,000 miles on it, other than tires, tubes the occasional chain and brake blocks it is all original. That bike is 43 years old and I would not hesitate to ride it across country tomorrow. Can't say that about many cars. Also just as a side note, steel is the world's most recycled material, so if we melt down all the old cars we would have bicycles for the next 3 millenniums.

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