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  1. #301
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
    It has nothing to do with Godwin's law. It's about the use of popular sovereignty to legitimate the suppression of universal freedom in favor of freedom for a majority, where majoritarian freedom results in the impediment of minority freedom. Is it possible to say this without being accused of Godwin's law?
    I said it was close. Your bringing up slavery as a straw man comes very close to breaching Godwin's Law.

  2. #302
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
    Some of us are trying to explore the possibility that motor-sprawl has expanded distances and created social-economic cultural norms that impede the ability for other forms of transportation to grow and replace the over-dominant culture of automotivism
    Where did that happen?!?!?!? Other than in YOUR imagination where and when will all this happen. What HAS happened... is the natural course of events. You could take a couple days to read up the massive efforts to alter the course of animal power on the cities of the 1800's. But you haven't! So... instead you want to repeat the same mistakes. Learn... think... then act.

    Quote Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
    What you seem to want is to allow automotivism to retain its cultural monopoly and even allow this cultural monopoly to actively subsidize the automotive economy to prevent it from failing. You want people to wait until every city collapses to begin facilitating and stimulating the ability to shift to other forms of transportation.
    No. I have no desire to "allow" anything. People will do what they want to do. YOU want to control people! Best of luck with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
    sprawl-tendencies can be kept in check ......
    Oh really? You know that huh? Where, and when did that happen? In some socialist dictator controlled pisswater dirt-patch? Is that what you want for your Mother, family, neighbors, forum members?
    Last edited by Dave Cutter; 06-25-14 at 09:03 AM.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post

    In some.... in this case ONE person words.
    And that one person is YOU. You are perverting old laws and debates to extract new meanings.... that DON'T apply. Living in the suburbs is like making people slaves?!?!?!?!? Oh come on.
    When most destinations are many miles away from your home, including your job, you have to estimate how much time you're going to spend on the road getting to various destinations when you choose your mode of transportation. You might choose to cycle or take a bus one day but when you spend hours doing what you could by driving in less time, it deters choices other than driving. To you, this might not seem like a significant impediment to your freedom but, if not, it is because you have grown to accept the cultural mandate to drive everywhere.

    I am not "perverting old laws and debates to extract new meanings that don't apply." I am pointing out that popular sovereignty is a political logic applies today as strongly as it was in the ante-bellum 19th century. People even have the gall to call it the essence of democracy. I am just pointing out that sprawling urban development effectively reduces the freedom to choose forms of transportation besides driving. And even if only a minority of people are willing to acknowledge that they would like to have the choice/freedom to ride a bike or use transit, it's still a significant breach of freedom. There are also future generations who will inherit these sprawling city layouts. We are laying a foundation for them to accept driving as a mandate before their minds even get a chance to consider alternatives. Sad.

    I am NOT talking down to you. But it is pointless to discuss where we are at (as a society) without a knowledge of history. Throughout history... city's rise and fall. Nothing has changed. You made a pointless silly remark about sprawl and slavery.... and got called on it.

    However. Seriously... if my posts seemed gruff or offensive I apologize.
    Thanks for apologizing. I can see that you have a critical mind so it interests me to see how you're thinking even though your values seem very different from mine.

  4. #304
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Much of what you posted reads.... as from a very youthful perspective. I am trying to be careful not to tell some 14 year old to get out and explore the world. You seem to have experienced life.... in a very narrow way. And you admittedly have no knowledge of history.
    Looks like you are misunderstanding me as much as I am misunderstanding you because that assessment was way off

    Seriously, I asked you how come you live in a city and yet have disdain for them, and your answer was that I should be able to figure it out. I admit I had a bit of an agenda in asking that question but you can correct me if I am leaping to conclusions. I wanted to see if you live in a city because it does in fact offer some advantages.

    I would appreciate an answer beyond some dismissal.

  5. #305
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    I said it was close. Your bringing up slavery as a straw man comes very close to breaching Godwin's Law.
    It is close! Some posters are of the belief of if we don't somehow stop these freedom loving, car driving, suburbanites.... who knows what may happen. I think one poster is afraid he might starve to death in his apartment if every square foot now available to grow food doesn't remain farmland.

    In reality it's fear! City dwellers know things have changed. City factory's are mostly gone... long gone. Few office worker need to commute now that we have that new InterWeb thingy. The Web even makes city shopping almost pointless. Many city's have entered into their "Detroit" period. And posters all know it.

    So now.... they want to FORCE the suburbanites and country people to pay for their failed efforts to run the city's.

  6. #306
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    .... Seriously, I asked you how come you live in a city and yet have disdain for them, and your answer was that I should be able to figure it out. ....
    I would appreciate an answer beyond some dismissal.
    How can you NOT know this?!?!? It is like you are an algorithm response. And you got caught on this one... because you know no real emotions.
    ONE... I have no distain or even dislike for cities. That is your imagination.
    TWO... Why does anyone chose to live anywhere. And I can! I could live almost anywhere on the planet I chose to. What would this one place put me close to.... that most humans value more than life itself.

    Maybe you should ask your Mother. [not a put-down... that's a hint]

  7. #307
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    I'm still not sure what this evil sprawl is we're talking about...
    Any kind of living accommodations that doesn't suit the desires of a few posters' dream of an idealized car free society where the inhabitants can spend their ample free time (when not on the Internet) riding bicycles aimlessly through the park or chasing butterflies on the stoop of their tenement/apartment house.

  8. #308
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    There is no surcharge for delivery to rural areas.... BECAUSE... (wait for it)... rural areas require no more fuel per package. But I am sure you imagined things worked differently... didn't you.
    This page has a link under “area surcharges” that lists the postal codes in the lower 48 states where UPS adds a rural delivery surcharge (about 20,000 zip codes).

    I randomly checked a few: Hartland, ME; Parkdale AZ; Baker City OR.

    I haven’t checked if Fed-Ex etc. have a similar list, but for outgoing delivery, I do know Fed-Ex charges for pickup, or you can drop packages off at their locations. From my house in the city, the nearest Fed-Ex drop off is about a mile away so it doesn’t cost me much to get there, but if I lived 15 miles away I would either pay for pickup or spend a bit of time and energy dropping it off. So there’s a built–in rural surcharge for outgoing packages that way.
    Last edited by cooker; 06-25-14 at 11:32 AM.

  9. #309
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    How can you NOT know this?!?!?
    Because, as you pointed out, I am a terrible psychic.

  10. #310
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Where I think that this forum has had a problem all along is:

    Living Car Free was meant to be about how YOU as a bicyclist or public transportation user dealt without owning a motor vehicle...

    Not how to completely remove motor vehicles everywhere.

    This is by no means a Sandinista kind of forum, it's a co-operative effort to REDUCE overall motor vehicle usage and document the clever ways Bike Forums members have done so. What it should not turn into is an endless VC topic, as there is already an entire A&S forum devoted to that. It shouldn't slip into a P&R or Trollheim subject.
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
    They can't fix expansion joints, because they expand.
    Smile at Miles with a ROLLFAST!

  11. #311
    Senior Member timmythology's Avatar
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    So would anyone know the value between "sprawl" and "gentrification", because it seems that when individuals are left to do what they want they may not plan for the actual consequences of their actions. The METRO region was given authority to manage sprawl, so the problem in Portland is not "sprawl". The issue of gentrifying a neighborhood is actually protected through the argument of "free enterprise" which just means that both of these issues are linked to the "individuals wants" vs "group needs".

    Which is why I will move from this urban destination, and seek my riches in the rural areas. I am actually shocked that no one has brought up "practices of sustainability" when living in rural areas.
    While I may have to pay more for somethings. That is just the opportunity cost for other choices. I understand the fear of losing a away of life, but that is the process of life.

    The reason I have returned to school to increase my capacity for technology, is because I have been in customer service for the last 25 years, and that industry is in the process of replacing labor cost for a different opportunity. For instance when you go grocery shopping do you use a person to check your groceries, or do you zap it down the self check out? When a manger tells me I have to use a machine and bag my own groceries I always ask for a discount since they do not have a labor cost. This usually makes the manager irritated, but they end opening the register for the sale.

    So live simple to simply live.

  12. #312
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
    Where I think that this forum has had a problem all along is:

    Living Car Free was meant to be about how YOU as a bicyclist or public transportation user dealt without owning a motor vehicle...

    Not how to completely remove motor vehicles everywhere.

    This is by no means a Sandinista kind of forum, it's a co-operative effort to REDUCE overall motor vehicle usage and document the clever ways Bike Forums members have done so. What it should not turn into is an endless VC topic, as there is already an entire A&S forum devoted to that. It shouldn't slip into a P&R or Trollheim subject.
    The problem is, Rollfast, that there are several trolls who have absolutely no interest at all in living car-free but who absolutely adore stirring things up here. What a shame!
    Gimme that car-free living!

  13. #313
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    I have been car-free since 2006...I simply could not afford to drive anymore. Some take this forum as an attempt to remove a 'freedom' when it's meant to help those who cannot drive.

    I have been guilty of poking myself...after all, you aren't going to move a family's furniture to Barcelona by bike...it would be an awesome engineering feat to be able to do it though.
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
    They can't fix expansion joints, because they expand.
    Smile at Miles with a ROLLFAST!

  14. #314
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    What can we, as a society, do to decrease UPS and FedEx's costs in transporting goods? This is the important question that no one is asking.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
    When most destinations are many miles away from your home, including your job, you have to estimate how much time you're going to spend on the road getting to various destinations when you choose your mode of transportation. You might choose to cycle or take a bus one day but when you spend hours doing what you could by driving in less time, it deters choices other than driving. To you, this might not seem like a significant impediment to your freedom but, if not, it is because you have grown to accept the cultural mandate to drive everywhere.
    ... And even if only a minority of people are willing to acknowledge that they would like to have the choice/freedom to ride a bike or use transit, it's still a significant breach of freedom.
    Seems to me this is really more about opportunity costs than freedom. At least in the conventional sense of the term. When we make a choice, we pay a price for that choice in limiting or eliminating other choices. I choose to live where I do. I make that choice freely. It does deprive me of ready access to public transportation and puts me too far out to make bike commuting practical for me. But you can't really call this an impediment to freedom as my freedom is exercised in making the choice to live where I do. I am equally free to move close to work, or close to restaurants and shopping if I desire. In doing so, I would give up enjoying the lifestyle I currently live. It would in the same sense be an impediment to my freedom to fully enjoy the beauty of a natural setting. Although our needs, wants, and desires are influenced by our culture, there is no cultural mandate that I make one choice or another. Every choice comes with costs, regardless of one's culture.

  16. #316
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    What can we, as a society, do to decrease UPS and FedEx's costs in transporting goods? This is the important question that no one is asking.
    I know how you can reduce your own FedEx/UPS costs, if that is a concern to you.

  17. #317
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
    Seems to me this is really more about opportunity costs than freedom. At least in the conventional sense of the term. When we make a choice, we pay a price for that choice in limiting or eliminating other choices. I choose to live where I do. I make that choice freely. It does deprive me of ready access to public transportation and puts me too far out to make bike commuting practical for me. But you can't really call this an impediment to freedom as my freedom is exercised in making the choice to live where I do. I am equally free to move close to work, or close to restaurants and shopping if I desire. In doing so, I would give up enjoying the lifestyle I currently live. It would in the same sense be an impediment to my freedom to fully enjoy the beauty of a natural setting. Although our needs, wants, and desires are influenced by our culture, there is no cultural mandate that I make one choice or another. Every choice comes with costs, regardless of one's culture.
    ...but what if the way of living you found is THE way of living and you want everyone else to live the same way? I mean, sure, the place you live is fine, but that 5 sq miles of urban area 300 miles from you could by slightly different in order to bike or take a bus from a residential street to the grocery store a small bit easier. Granted we'll have to tear down some stores and homes and rip up the existing streets, but it will be slightly better, in my opinion, when we're done! Isn't that what it's all about anyway?

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Yes.... a very very old joke. Everyone goes downtown at night around here! It's the very best place to buy hookers and drugs.
    Hey- your living in a city to find HOOKERS AND DRUGS
    that is a pretty good answer to the- WHY cities question ?
    It is where you can quickly find lots of actual humans-lotta variety and anonymity.
    Different humans-not your PITB relatives/inlaws/fellow workers

    You knew the answer all along-and were just testing us!

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave cutter View Post
    how can you not know this?!?!? It is like you are an algorithm response. And you got caught on this one... Because you know no real emotions.
    One... I have no distain or even dislike for cities. That is your imagination.
    Two... Why does anyone chose to live anywhere. And i can! I could live almost anywhere on the planet i chose to. What would this one place put me close to.... That most humans value more than life itself.

    maybe you should ask your mother. [not a put-down... That's a hint]
    hookers and drugs!!

  20. #320
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    ...but what if the way of living you found is THE way of living and you want everyone else to live the same way? I mean, sure, the place you live is fine, but that 5 sq miles of urban area 300 miles from you could by slightly different in order to bike or take a bus from a residential street to the grocery store a small bit easier. Granted we'll have to tear down some stores and homes and rip up the existing streets, but it will be slightly better, in my opinion, when we're done! Isn't that what it's all about anyway?
    I certainly don't want or expect people to live a certain way. I just don't want to subsidize it or suffer from it. If I help fund a new freeway I am enabling people to create smog. Let them pay for their own smog! And in contradistinction to what Dave Cutter said
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    . What HAS happened... is the natural course of events...People will do what they want to do.
    Cities don't just grow or sprawl due to everybody doing what they want. They are influenced by policies and laws and decisions, like where to put a new tax-funded freeway or how much to publicly subsidize utilities. Other people are driving those decisions and dragging the rest of us along, and I personally don't like to be dragged along.
    Last edited by cooker; 06-25-14 at 11:57 AM.

  21. #321
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    I certainly don't want or expect people to live a certain way. I just don't want to subusidize it or suffer from it. If I help fund a new freeway I am enabling people to create smog. Let them pay for their own smog!
    I'll give up my subsidies if you give up yours. Gladly.

  22. #322
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    I'll give up my subsidies if you give up yours. Gladly.
    Careful what you wish for.

  23. #323
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    Careful what you wish for.
    Fine. We'll make a deal. I'll keep mine; you keep yours, and we'll let that guy over there keep his. It's fine.

    Maybe Canada is different, but it's unsustainable here in the US to keep paying for all the pet projects that are going on.

  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
    Seems to me this is really more about opportunity costs than freedom. At least in the conventional sense of the term. When we make a choice, we pay a price for that choice in limiting or eliminating other choices. I choose to live where I do. I make that choice freely. It does deprive me of ready access to public transportation and puts me too far out to make bike commuting practical for me. But you can't really call this an impediment to freedom as my freedom is exercised in making the choice to live where I do. I am equally free to move close to work, or close to restaurants and shopping if I desire. In doing so, I would give up enjoying the lifestyle I currently live. It would in the same sense be an impediment to my freedom to fully enjoy the beauty of a natural setting. Although our needs, wants, and desires are influenced by our culture, there is no cultural mandate that I make one choice or another. Every choice comes with costs, regardless of one's culture.
    It makes more sense to provide viable transportation freedom within the same area instead of expecting people to move to other areas/cities where the opportunity costs of one transportation choice aren't as exclusive of other choices. There's really no excuse for failing to reduce sprawl and make other transportation choices more on par with driving in any area unless there is some insurmountably hurdle or other reason it is absolutely impractical to do so.

    People have the right to explore different transportation options freely, wherever they may live. In this way, the future is determined by a market of free comparison between alternatives and not by the fact that you got locked into a certain choice as an opportunity cost for opting into a certain area or job.
    Last edited by tandempower; 06-25-14 at 01:54 PM.

  25. #325
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    One factor limiting sprawl in my local is the amount of land that can be deeded, with much of it now zoned and legally set aside for agricultural use. Commute time and the cost of commuting is another factor in limiting sprawl as well.
    Over the last 20 to 30 years in my locale, a considerable movement on higher density housing has taken place, with numerous empty lots and fields in many neighborhoods being filled with homes or apartment complexes. The downside to higher density housing in my locale is the once quieter roads now have higher density traffic numbers to go with it.
    Your first sentence reminded me of two non-government programs for limiting sprawl. These might appeal to some who don't like government involvement.

    First is a non-profit program in Michigan called Land Bank. They buy properties and either keep them "in the bank" or restore and sell them. At first they mainly worked in rural areas to conserve farmland and forested areas. Now county land banks work in urban areas to prevent or reverse blight. They have "fast track" authority to quickly purchase foreclosed/abandoned properties. They either demolish or rehab the buildings, then resell them, using profits to buy more property. How does this reduce sprawl? Because it helps people who want to live in cities stay there, rather than being pushed into sprawl areas by lack of good housing in the cities.

    Second is what you might be referring to, dynodonn. The Nature Conservancy and other non-profits get farmers and other rural people to deed their land to the non-profit. They are able to live on the land the rest of their lives, provided they don't allow development of the property. When they die, the non-profit takes full possession of the property.

    These are both programs that are called "non-confrontational environmentalism". Most people can support them, regardless of their ideology.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

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