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Sprawl-free vs. car-free

Old 06-23-14, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by phoebeisis
Yikes-driving 6 miles to get groceries-bank-12 miles roundtrip in an "average older car" city driving-maybe 2/3 gallon-almost $3 -plus wear and tear on vehicle-figure $6 per trip easily.
And forget about riding public transportation with frozen food-6 miles-probably 40 minutes one way+ wait time-
you flat can't buy frozen food-
and poultry-beef- really not improved by 1 hr in the summer heat!
Bacon/ham/preserved meats-do OK but they aren't so great stomach cancer wise.(taste good of course-vit c might mitigate the stomach cancer risk- fresh tomatoes (vit c source)good combo with ham/bacon/lunch meat -tastes great too-BLT-HAM EGG TOMATO OMELET)
Are you just making all of this up as you go along?
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Old 06-23-14, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jade408
Because it is pretty hard for Oakland to attract development for a whole host of reasons that are way off topic for this thread. A community-oriented grocer is in the fundraising phase for West Oakalnd at the moment, but several mainstream grocery projects have fell off in that area over the past couple years.
The new east Oakland store took like 20 years of effort. New mall in neglected East Oakland 'changing the community' - SFGate


Hi Jade408

Do the farmers markets accept the EBT program? The reason I ask is that in Portland the markets not only accept them, but also have an exchange rate of 3/1 for the first ten dollars they spend. This purchase choice has been very helpful to the community members who need the support.
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Old 06-23-14, 01:37 PM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by tandempower
...... In the 19th century, the same argument was used about slavery, i.e. that state-level majorities should be 'free' to maintain slavery.......
I just love it when creative people take the time (like you just did) to make-up history that is self serving. Even when the pretend history is so childishly created as to fool no one..... it's still fun to read.

No human has EVER been so misinformed as to equate slavery... to freedom.

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Old 06-23-14, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by loky1179
There's got to be some kind of name for that process . .
A name for a process when a city grows too rapidly? Yes... there is a name for that! Of course first you have to accept that there is NO correct speed for any city to grow at. Then read the book "future Shock"[future shock by alvin toffler 1971].
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Old 06-23-14, 01:50 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by Roody
Isn't "paradigm" also an outdated paradigm?
No not at all. Brains are.... what they are. In order to solve complex problems we have to have a working knowledge of the instruments we use. The human brain will process information in predicable ways. Not understanding how that gray-matter processing works is often the root of consistent errors.
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Old 06-23-14, 01:52 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by timmythology
Individuals that are able to obtain their resources digitally can start to look at living away from the traditional hubs, and start looking at building sustainable communities in the interior of the US (your country here). Which than allows for new development models and can be organized with a different quality of life in mind.
What do you mean by digitally obtaining resources? AFAIK nothing like that is possible, or ever will be.
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Old 06-23-14, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
Interesting idea. In what way would you say "'modern' cities were on the verge of pandemic abandonment when cars replaced the horse as the primary means of transportation?" I.e. what was the driving cause of 'abandonment?' What decade(s) are you referring to? I'm interested in discussing this objectively but I would need to know what specific factors you're thinking of to limit the viability of 'modern' cities at that time prior to widespread driving.........
So... what your saying is.... you have absolutely no knowledge of American history. And have never had an inclination to learn any history. BUT.... you would like to discuss it.... as if you did?

Why don't you rush out an spend a couple thousand hours learning how you got to where you at right now. Then... I'll even open up a chat room for you.
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Old 06-23-14, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
What do you mean by digitally obtaining resources? AFAIK nothing like that is possible, or ever will be.
You need to read-up on current events!
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Old 06-23-14, 02:09 PM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
You need to read-up on current events!
Why don't you explain it, since you seem to be the only one with knowledge or intelligence.
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Old 06-23-14, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
Why don't you explain it, since you seem to be the only one with knowledge or intelligence.
It's called telemarketing and it is a new thing that has started happening since Al Gore invented the internet.
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Old 06-23-14, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ro-monster
You're probably right. It's one of those words that used to be trendy...
It's not a new or trendy word. It is a word borrowed from psychology. And it was nearly worn-out (and often misused) in trying to explain to a paper based work-force that information had moved to a digital format. The explanations often fell on deaf ears as people refused to reexamine their thought processes. Pretty much... the same as with this thread.

Apparently.... you got by not learning "the basics" at work. I'd guess you won't get them here... now... ether.

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Old 06-23-14, 02:15 PM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by RPK79
It's called telemarketing and it is a new thing that has started happening since Al Gore invented the internet.
Or... you could own, operate, and manage this Web Site from most burgs in America. [please note: this Site is monitored internationally] And brown UPS trucks still show up (just like those big city people get). The entire "idea" of a need for cities and city service.... is so 1950ish. People should get out more.

Last edited by Dave Cutter; 06-23-14 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 06-23-14, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by timmythology
Hi Jade408

Do the farmers markets accept the EBT program? The reason I ask is that in Portland the markets not only accept them, but also have an exchange rate of 3/1 for the first ten dollars they spend. This purchase choice has been very helpful to the community members who need the support.
They do, I think the exchange rate is $2 to $1. But there aren't really any farmers markets in West Oakland (besides what People's Grocery is running) and not sure about East Oakland. Some are pretty far from those locales, so by the time you got there, you are at the grocery! I've got about 5 weekly ones in my 3 mile radius. But I can't really think of any further than my radius.

Kaiser does run weekly markets in many of their locations, but the one in my neighborhood is pretty pricy.
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Old 06-23-14, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
What do you mean by digitally obtaining resources? AFAIK nothing like that is possible, or ever will be.
Roody, why do people live where they do? What happened to the American railway system that established a very nice foothold for it's time, and how goods and materials where shipped. That rail road also created many towns that were able to sustain the trail head. Others were not.

Land is required in order to make a community, ever thing else is a process of attraction. So like many others I am looking for the new frontier.

Now here is the shift

Find a town that is in the interior of the US, that has a certain level of infrastructure that can support a car free community. I want the capitalist to be centered in the core and have a spiral from there to residential housing and supports.

For me to do this I will need to have a financial resource to cover my bills, allow for a savings, and find a community. As a recent graduate I will leverage my new skill set, and collaborate it with other individuals that I already know to develop a social enterprise that is based on the internet (which is not going away, but will be drastically changed) allowing me to have less dependance on being in brick and mortar.

As a social enterprise I will have the capacity to leverage the resources above operating cost to use to fund my make believe community, and in addition be able to bypass most of that progressive "NOT IN MY BACK YARD" bs that prevents a non-profit from development.

Is this clear enough of what I mean by digital resources?
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Old 06-23-14, 02:52 PM
  #190  
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Ok, Portland has a farmers market on just about every corner. There was a group trying to do a grocery truck in the lower Northwest area since there is no immediate shopping there. Now in the outer east side you can travel pretty far for a grocery store.
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Old 06-23-14, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by RPK79
Are you just making all of this up as you go along?
Nitrosamines[edit]
A principal concern about sodium nitrite is the formation of carcinogenic nitrosamines in meats containing sodium nitrite when meat is charred or overcooked. Such carcinogenic nitrosamines can also be formed from the reaction of nitrite with secondary amines under acidic conditions (such as occurs in the human stomach) as well as during the curing process used to preserve meats. Dietary sources of nitrosamines include US cured meats preserved with sodium nitrite as well as the dried salted fish eaten in Japan. In the 1920s, a significant change in US meat curing practices resulted in a 69% decrease in average nitrite content. This event preceded the beginning of a dramatic decline in gastric cancer mortality.[26] About 1970, it was found that ascorbic acid (vitamin C), an antioxidant, inhibits nitrosamine formation.[27] Consequently, the addition of at least 550 ppm of ascorbic acid is required in meats manufactured in the United States. Manufacturers sometimes instead use erythorbic acid, a cheaper but equally effective isomer of ascorbic acid. Additionally, manufacturers may include alpha-tocopherol (vitamin E) to further inhibit nitrosamine production. Alpha-tocopherol, ascorbic acid, and erythorbic acid all inhibit nitrosamine production by their oxidation-reduction properties. Ascorbic acid, for example, forms dehydroascorbic acid when oxidized, which when in the presence of nitrous anhydride, a potent nitrosating agent formed from sodium nitrate, reduces the nitrous anhydride into nitric oxide.[28] Note that nitrous anhydride does not exist in vitro.[29]

So when you crisp that bacon-drink OJ eat tomatoes-or take a multivitamin-I wouldn't rely on some meat packing plant to always get the dose right.
Probably sourcing it from china or india-who knows-but cheap and quick is the rule in that business

The rest you can look up.
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Old 06-23-14, 04:52 PM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by RPK79
If there is such a person they don't exist here on the forum. Maybe deep in the woods of Montana or something...
Roody would pay his share through a carbon tax which would gauge exactly how much he "uses" the freeway (a hell of a lot less than someone who drives on it every day).
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Old 06-23-14, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
Or... you could own, operate, and manage this Web Site from most burgs in America. [please note: this Site is monitored internationally] And brown UPS trucks still show up (just like those big city people get). The entire "idea" of a need for cities and city service.... is so 1950ish. People should get out more.
It's much more expensive to distribute goods to people in a low density setting than in a high density setting.
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Old 06-23-14, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by RPK79
It's called telemarketing and it is a new thing that has started happening since Al Gore invented the internet.
Well, you might order the resources digitally, but they're going to be delivered by something with a machine. And the farther from the hub that machine has to go, the more energy it will use, and the more money it will cost. And the delivery vehicle will travel on roads that have been subsidized by some socialist government scheme.

I know you independent libertarian types don't want to subsidize or be subsidized by others, so you will refuse "free" delivery on government built roads. Right?
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Old 06-23-14, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker
Roody would pay his share through a carbon tax which would gauge exactly how much he "uses" the freeway (a hell of a lot less than someone who drives on it every day).
I actually don't mind paying for roads, even those in remote places. After all, the highway network is more valuable if it's extensive and complete.

It just would be nice if the rugged individualists living in those remote places would acknowledge that they are socialists as much as I am. Instead of being off the grid, they are living in the expensive part of the grid that is the most heavily subsidized by their fellow citizens. You're welcome!
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Old 06-23-14, 06:55 PM
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As more people in outlying areas start to work from home electronically, and if they can get goods delivered by low energy drones, that would lessen some of the cost of sprawl. It would still be an inefficient way to live, in terms of utilities and social services like police response times, fire departments, etc. but less harmful than it is now if it hugely reduces single car long distance commuting.

Last edited by cooker; 06-23-14 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 06-23-14, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
A name for a process when a city grows too rapidly? Yes... there is a name for that! Of course first you have to accept that there is NO correct speed for any city to grow at. Then read the book "future Shock"[future shock by alvin toffler 1971].

Sorry - don't have time now. I'm feverishly studying up on the horrible poop-pocalyspe of the early 20th century. I guess the underfunded state schools that I attended neglected to teach this.
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Old 06-23-14, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
I actually don't mind paying for roads, even those in remote places. After all, the highway network is more valuable if it's extensive and complete.

It just would be nice if the rugged individualists living in those remote places would acknowledge that they are socialists as much as I am. Instead of being off the grid, they are living in the expensive part of the grid that is the most heavily subsidized by their fellow citizens. You're welcome!
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Old 06-23-14, 08:08 PM
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I admit that I haven't read this whole thread, however I have read enough to get the gist of the discussion. I have lived in New York City and lived in a semi rural community. I now live in Albany which I see as a perfect balance between the two. This is just personal preference obviously, but it strikes the perfect balance of detached single family homes and urban amenities in my opinion.
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Old 06-23-14, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker
As more people in outlying areas start to work from home electronically, and if they can get goods delivered by low energy drones, that would lessen some of the cost of sprawl. It would still be an inefficient way to live, in terms of utilities and social services like police response times, fire departments, etc. but less harmful than it is now if it hugely reduces single car long distance commuting.
Is there a problem with working from home? Many people feel isolated if they work away every day. Great to wear your slippers at the computer. But many opt to work at the office more than they work at home. And Yahoo, for example, has decided it needs all employees where they can communicate face-to-face.

For myself, my greatest enjoyment in my workday is getting there
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