How much does it cost you to be carfree or carlight? CARFREE COSTS
#51
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Much as I sympathize with the desire to get people on bikes inexpensively, I can see it the other way too - if there are people willing to pay $1000+ for a commuter bike (and there are, apparently), why should a shop or manufacturer price their goods below what the market will bear? The higher-than-it-could-be prices on new bikes aren't all bad if they keep shops in business and mechanics employed.
I'm jaded because I have experience playing both sides of the field, I run a small shop/sell used bikes out of my garage (just in my spare time, I have a regular job too) and it's a frustrating endeavor because the low prices of used bikes make it challenging to turn a profit that's even remotely commensurate for the labor hours invested. Obviously the profit margins are bigger on new bikes and high-volume sales, but still, bikes are cheap only when labor is cheap - why do you think pretty much everything made for bikes these days comes from China or Taiwan? As both a laborer, and someone who would also like to bring my non-wrenching skills to the bike industry someday, I take it as a good sign if people are willing to plunk down more money for bicycles.
Economics stratified markets into well-paying customers (who have more income to spend) and poorer customers with less income (or none). The only way to ever even begin approaching equality is for everyone to develop the skills to do things themselves and live by the fruits of their own labor. For this to be possible, certain basic materials are needed so parts-suppliers are a necessary component of a do-it-yourself public. Autoparts suppliers have retail distributors for parts but for some reason some bike mechanics (maybe not all?) prefer the idea of withholding parts for the sake of ensuring everyone hire them for their services.
#52
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Much as I sympathize with the desire to get people on bikes inexpensively, I can see it the other way too - if there are people willing to pay $1000+ for a commuter bike (and there are, apparently), why should a shop or manufacturer price their goods below what the market will bear? The higher-than-it-could-be prices on new bikes aren't all bad if they keep shops in business and mechanics employed.
I'm jaded because I have experience playing both sides of the field, I run a small shop/sell used bikes out of my garage (just in my spare time, I have a regular job too) and it's a frustrating endeavor because the low prices of used bikes make it challenging to turn a profit that's even remotely commensurate for the labor hours invested. Obviously the profit margins are bigger on new bikes and high-volume sales, but still, bikes are cheap only when labor is cheap - why do you think pretty much everything made for bikes these days comes from China or Taiwan? As both a laborer, and someone who would also like to bring my non-wrenching skills to the bike industry someday, I take it as a good sign if people are willing to plunk down more money for bicycles.
I'm jaded because I have experience playing both sides of the field, I run a small shop/sell used bikes out of my garage (just in my spare time, I have a regular job too) and it's a frustrating endeavor because the low prices of used bikes make it challenging to turn a profit that's even remotely commensurate for the labor hours invested. Obviously the profit margins are bigger on new bikes and high-volume sales, but still, bikes are cheap only when labor is cheap - why do you think pretty much everything made for bikes these days comes from China or Taiwan? As both a laborer, and someone who would also like to bring my non-wrenching skills to the bike industry someday, I take it as a good sign if people are willing to plunk down more money for bicycles.
You can find bargains. My son recently bought a nice Trek MTB at a yard sale for $15. It was stolen off our front porch. A couple weeks later, we saw the same bike at a local pawn shop marked at $300.
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#53
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Most months I spend nothing on transportation. Last I figured my monthly average is around $50. But this includes an overhaul of my primary commuters drive train every year which can cost upwards of $500(IGH setups cost a bit and I am HARD on them, killing in one year what should last 5-10). I simply time that so I can use my tax refund.
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Most months I spend nothing on transportation. Last I figured my monthly average is around $50. But this includes an overhaul of my primary commuters drive train every year which can cost upwards of $500(IGH setups cost a bit and I am HARD on them, killing in one year what should last 5-10). I simply time that so I can use my tax refund.
#55
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I'm not terribly interested in the details of your car expenses. I only asked because I was a little skeptical of the $1000 figure you reported.
What are your bike costs? Almost everybody says bike commuting is cheaper than either cars or transit, as cooker mentioned above. Commuting 15 miles by bike might take a little more time than driving, but not a lot more time (assuming your circumstances are typical). And it's certainly time well spent if you love riding. Have you ever considered bike commuting?
What are your bike costs? Almost everybody says bike commuting is cheaper than either cars or transit, as cooker mentioned above. Commuting 15 miles by bike might take a little more time than driving, but not a lot more time (assuming your circumstances are typical). And it's certainly time well spent if you love riding. Have you ever considered bike commuting?
My 30 mile RT commute wouldn't add that much time, maybe two and a half hours, which isn't as bad as the four + added by a bus, but thats still time I need because my circumstances aren't typical (I care for/maintain two disabled family members and their homes), and that time would also be compounded by the extra time I would need to dedicate to running errands. In the aggregate, I'd be looking at something like ~15 hours a week, which would make my responsibilities outside of work difficult if not impossible, although I would also be in great shape.
With all that said, an e-bike would be the best of everything. High average speeds so I would still have time for my responsibilities outside of work, very low costs, probably only a hundred or so dollars per year higher than what I pay for my existing bikes, which is already less than $100 year (tires/tubes/lube), and as much exercise as I feel like putting up with.
#56
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I reformatted bbeasley's table so others could more easily read it.
For me, being car-lite costs me money. I still have to pay registration & insurance on my car, so the only savings I get is on the lack of wear and tear on the car and the savings from burning fuel. My 2500 miles a year in the car would be at 20 mpg, and gas is about $3.50 a gallon, so $437 or so in savings. On the flip side, I like to tweak my bikes and have many bags/tires/bikes for different weather conditions. These have cost me a great deal of money. I'd say I'm probably several thousand in the hole even after primarily bike commuting for several years now. That said, my BP is great and I'm only barely obese compared to my father at this age having BP and cardiac concerns, and me being 40 lbs heavier prior to the bike commuting. So I probably have saved money in terms of future health costs. Still, the CEO of our household does not approve expenditures on a rationale of money saved vs. driving.
Code:
Item Life Cost Cost per mile Bike 10 525 0.024 Fenders 10 60 0.003 Saddle 6 45 0.003 Tires 1.5 124 0.038 Chain/Tubes 1.5 50 0.015 Jacket 4 90 0.010 Shorts/Pants 4 200 0.023 Pedals 6 60 0.005 Shoes 4 80 0.009 Wheels 5 225 0.020
#57
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I change often. Started out with a 7-speed, went to 3, then up to 8. My 8-speed is already giving me issues so I can see a replacement in march already. All shimano parts. I just carry a LOT of stuff. It's not uncommon to need to haul 100lbs of stuff most weekends.
#58
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OP here. I was intending this thread to be personal accounts of how much people spend on non-car transportation expenses. The purpose is to help people estimate what their expenses would be in various stages of being carlight or carfree.
Please try to stay on topic.
So do tell...how much do you spend on bikes and whatnot?
Please try to stay on topic.
So do tell...how much do you spend on bikes and whatnot?
I recently returned to the states, I would estimate $1200 on direct bike costs. However, there were a lot of job opportunities that I missed out on because I am carfree. I Finally found a job in another state. I am shipping my bike and trailer (about $120) along with some other stuff. Then I will fly, that will run another $500. Then, because I do not have the ability to transport stuff, when I get where I am going I will have to equip another home with stuff that I have purchased, and walked away from several times; that I will probably eventually walk away from these purchases too.
Unless you live like a homeless person, living car free can be quite expensive when all of the parts are added in. Yes, one can eventually realize savings if a lot of stars align. However, if you are not one of the lucky ones (stable job in good location) it can be quite expensive. You really have to include opportunity cost.
Going back to actual costs, the last time I moved shipping bikes was stupid expensive; so I took one as second bag (an extra $200) and left the other. On this trip the baggage is even tighter So i was going to leave it behind and just order a bike online. However, I found, and am going to try a discount shipper (uses FedEx). If all goes well the bike and trailer I already own will be waiting for me to reassemble when I arrive in Kansas.
So:
Bike ~ $900
Trailer ~ $280
assorted stuff ~ $50
Extra Shipping ~ $130
Last edited by Robert C; 07-25-14 at 12:38 PM.
#59
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But, it is not possible to consider the savings of living carfree without including opportunity cost of living carfree.
I recently returned to the states, I would estimate $1200 on direct bike costs. However, there were a lot of job opportunities that I missed out on because I am carfree. I Finally found a job in another state. I am shipping my bike and trailer (about $120) along with some other stuff. Then I will fly, that will run another $500. Then, because I do not have the ability to transport stuff, when I get where I am going I will have to equip another home with stuff that I have purchased, and walked away from several times; that I will probably eventually walk away from these purchases too.
Unless you live like a homeless person, living car free can be quite expensive when all of the parts are added in. Yes, one can eventually realize savings if a lot of stars align. However, if you are not one of the lucky ones (stable job in good location) it can be quite expensive. You really have to include opportunity cost.
Going back to actual costs, the last time I moved shipping bikes was stupid expensive; so I took one as second bag (an extra $200) and left the other. On this trip the baggage is even tighter So i was going to leave it behind and just order a bike online. However, I found, and am going to try a discount shipper (uses FedEx). If all goes well the bike and trailer I already own will be waiting for me to reassemble when I arrive in Kansas.
So:
Bike ~ $900
Trailer ~ $280
assorted stuff ~ $50
Extra Shipping ~ $130
I recently returned to the states, I would estimate $1200 on direct bike costs. However, there were a lot of job opportunities that I missed out on because I am carfree. I Finally found a job in another state. I am shipping my bike and trailer (about $120) along with some other stuff. Then I will fly, that will run another $500. Then, because I do not have the ability to transport stuff, when I get where I am going I will have to equip another home with stuff that I have purchased, and walked away from several times; that I will probably eventually walk away from these purchases too.
Unless you live like a homeless person, living car free can be quite expensive when all of the parts are added in. Yes, one can eventually realize savings if a lot of stars align. However, if you are not one of the lucky ones (stable job in good location) it can be quite expensive. You really have to include opportunity cost.
Going back to actual costs, the last time I moved shipping bikes was stupid expensive; so I took one as second bag (an extra $200) and left the other. On this trip the baggage is even tighter So i was going to leave it behind and just order a bike online. However, I found, and am going to try a discount shipper (uses FedEx). If all goes well the bike and trailer I already own will be waiting for me to reassemble when I arrive in Kansas.
So:
Bike ~ $900
Trailer ~ $280
assorted stuff ~ $50
Extra Shipping ~ $130
You just can't count a "choice" as a "cost".
In economics, "opportunity cost" refers only to irrevocable decisions. An example would be if you spent all of your money on Option A, so you couldn't afford to take advantage if a better Option B came along later. That would rarely, if ever, be the case if you decided to be carfree. A decision to be carfree is revocable--it can be changed at any time if a better opportunity (Option B) arises.
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#60
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I have one old 3 speed that probably has had $200 worth of total maintenance costs in 32 years. Bike has been ridden 35,000+ miles. Tires and brake blocks were my main wear out items. The rear cog was switched out when I moved to a hilly area and the chain has been replaced 3-4 times. That works out to $.006 a mile
I do have other IGH bikes and spend money on them, but again it is customization not operating costs. I have a custom that I am building up that will have around $750 worth of parts on it, the frame cost ~$100.
Aaron
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#61
Senior Member
I wouldn't count swapping around between hubs as maintenance cost, that is more customization, like adding fancy wheels to a car then claiming it was part of the operating costs.
I have one old 3 speed that probably has had $200 worth of total maintenance costs in 32 years. Bike has been ridden 35,000+ miles. Tires and brake blocks were my main wear out items. The rear cog was switched out when I moved to a hilly area and the chain has been replaced 3-4 times. That works out to $.006 a mile
I do have other IGH bikes and spend money on them, but again it is customization not operating costs. I have a custom that I am building up that will have around $750 worth of parts on it, the frame cost ~$100.
Aaron
I have one old 3 speed that probably has had $200 worth of total maintenance costs in 32 years. Bike has been ridden 35,000+ miles. Tires and brake blocks were my main wear out items. The rear cog was switched out when I moved to a hilly area and the chain has been replaced 3-4 times. That works out to $.006 a mile
I do have other IGH bikes and spend money on them, but again it is customization not operating costs. I have a custom that I am building up that will have around $750 worth of parts on it, the frame cost ~$100.
Aaron
Also money spent is money spent. It affects the budget all the same. Even if the other hubs were just fine it would still fall under maintenance as I am adding a new part to replace an old part. So I count my cup holder, my stereo, and other such things I have to replace now and then as maintenance.
#62
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Thread Starter
I would. As the previous hubs all died, or became otherwise not fully functional, that IS maintenance.
Also money spent is money spent. It affects the budget all the same. Even if the other hubs were just fine it would still fall under maintenance as I am adding a new part to replace an old part. So I count my cup holder, my stereo, and other such things I have to replace now and then as maintenance.
Also money spent is money spent. It affects the budget all the same. Even if the other hubs were just fine it would still fall under maintenance as I am adding a new part to replace an old part. So I count my cup holder, my stereo, and other such things I have to replace now and then as maintenance.
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#63
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Actually he was talking about me switching hubs yearly.
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I would. As the previous hubs all died, or became otherwise not fully functional, that IS maintenance.
Also money spent is money spent. It affects the budget all the same. Even if the other hubs were just fine it would still fall under maintenance as I am adding a new part to replace an old part. So I count my cup holder, my stereo, and other such things I have to replace now and then as maintenance.
Also money spent is money spent. It affects the budget all the same. Even if the other hubs were just fine it would still fall under maintenance as I am adding a new part to replace an old part. So I count my cup holder, my stereo, and other such things I have to replace now and then as maintenance.
Aaron
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ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
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"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
#65
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What are you doing to destroy hubs? I have yet to break any IG hub beyond repair (Shimano 333 being the exception). I currently have 4 bikes with IGH that I service that are daily riders, other than annual oil/grease on the newer Shimano ones they roll along on a daily basis, trouble free. The most trouble free and durable is the Sturmey-Archer AW 3 speed.
Aaron
Aaron
#66
Senior Member
What are you doing to destroy hubs? I have yet to break any IG hub beyond repair (Shimano 333 being the exception). I currently have 4 bikes with IGH that I service that are daily riders, other than annual oil/grease on the newer Shimano ones they roll along on a daily basis, trouble free. The most trouble free and durable is the Sturmey-Archer AW 3 speed.
Aaron
Aaron
Can't really compare recreational riding to hard core utility riding. Much as a work truck will need more maintenance than your weekend joy ride.
Last edited by harshbarj; 07-28-14 at 04:50 PM.
#67
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Simply riding. I myself weigh WELL over 200lbs and regularly carry over 50lbs and can easily top 100lbs of stuff. I also have some monster hills that I need to climb and VERY harsh winters that then do in hubs that survive the summer.
Can't really compare recreational riding to hard core utility riding. Much as a work truck will need more maintenance than your weekend joy ride.
Can't really compare recreational riding to hard core utility riding. Much as a work truck will need more maintenance than your weekend joy ride.
I weigh over 200# also, and routinely carry 50# grocery loads. I just swapped out my Nexus 7 for a Nexus 8 because I could and like having one more low gear. I do annual routine maintenance on my hubs, I pull the innards, check for wear, oil, grease and reinstall. They last longer that way.
I literally beat the living crap out of my 1971 Raleigh Sports, then my brother rode it for 3 more years with zero maintenance and managed to wreck the bike twice and the rear hub still works perfectly. I tore it down a couple of years ago and replaced the pawl springs just because.
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ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
#68
Senior Member
My son has a Roloff IGH and just loves it, never any problem, changes the oil once a year and beats the crap out of it year round for the last 5 years... Never a problem...
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Aaron
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"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
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On what line do I add in the health benefits and how much is that worth?
How can you have 4 bikes that are daily riders? How does that work? 4 different family members?
Who in their right mind sits around and calculates all this stuff? I'm too busy riding.....
I know one thing for sure,I spend less money on my bike per year than my car insurance used to cost per year.I could buy a new bike every year.
If I include my shop insurance,I could buy a fleet of new carbon fiber bicycles every year...
How can you have 4 bikes that are daily riders? How does that work? 4 different family members?
Who in their right mind sits around and calculates all this stuff? I'm too busy riding.....
I know one thing for sure,I spend less money on my bike per year than my car insurance used to cost per year.I could buy a new bike every year.
If I include my shop insurance,I could buy a fleet of new carbon fiber bicycles every year...
Last edited by Booger1; 08-05-14 at 01:50 PM.
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Sometimes I must travel to the closest grocery store instead of the one several miles away. This small store charges between 30% and 300% more than the larger store. One snack I like is pizza. A Red Barron pizza at the larger store costs $3.50. At the closer store it costs $5.67. A can of beans at the large store costs 50 cents. At the small store it costs $1.29. Suffice it to say I don't often shop at the nearby store. There are times when it has a sale and their prices equal the regular prices of the larger store. At those times I will purchase regular items but only if I'm in there for something like a snack and happen to notice the sale. It helps me to buy items on sale at the nearby store so that when I go to the other one I can buy more items that otherwise would not fit into my backpack.
When I had a dog it would cost me $35 plus tips to go to the veterinarian and back using a taxi.
Since these extra costs are not regular or even fixed it is impossible to give an accurate account of how much being car free adds to my expenses. I can say that living car free and sharing a house with others has lowered my monthly expenditures to under $500 per month. Some people have car payments that are more than that.
When I had a dog it would cost me $35 plus tips to go to the veterinarian and back using a taxi.
Since these extra costs are not regular or even fixed it is impossible to give an accurate account of how much being car free adds to my expenses. I can say that living car free and sharing a house with others has lowered my monthly expenditures to under $500 per month. Some people have car payments that are more than that.
Last edited by Smallwheels; 08-05-14 at 04:11 PM.