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  1. #26
    Senior Member Smallwheels's Avatar
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    If we all keep giving in to government stupidity that is all we'll ever get. This is a matter of personal integrity and reputation. Nobody should let any government agency impugn them. This is a slippery slope to slave status for all of us. By fighting this and winning it will make them think twice about doing this to another family.

    You need to bring up the annual National Walk or Bike To Work Days. If the federal government promotes such a thing they why should any government agency tell people to not do it. What about the Presidents Council On Fitness, Sports, & Nutrition? Bring that up.

    Fitness - President's Council on Fitness, Sports & Nutrition - President's Council on Fitness, Sports & Nutrition

    http://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/keys...difference.pdf

    Fight them and kick their butts!
    Last edited by Smallwheels; 07-26-14 at 11:34 PM.
    Smallwheels

    Take my stuff, please. I have way too much. My current goal is to have all of my possessions fit onto a large bicycle trailer. Really.

  2. #27
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Response time for EMT is 60 minutes? That's very surprising, for any region besides Alaska. A town that would allow that to happen is not a town I would want to live in! I guess a residence would have to be well over 50 miles from the nearest town/hospital/volunteer fire department to have a one-hour response time.


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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post
    If we all keep giving in to government stupidity that is all we'll ever get. This is a matter of personal integrity and reputation. Nobody should let any government agency impugn them. This is a slippery slope to slave status for all of us. By fighting this and winning it will make them think twice about doing this to another family.

    You need to bring up the annual National Walk or Bike To Work Days. If the federal government promotes such a thing they why should any government agency tell people to not do it. What about the Presidents Council On Fitness, Sports, & Nutrition? Bring that up.

    Fitness - President's Council on Fitness, Sports & Nutrition - President's Council on Fitness, Sports & Nutrition

    http://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/keys...difference.pdf

    Fight them and kick their butts!
    Yeah, and the family they ignore because of your assertions may very well be the family that needs intervention the most.

    A complaint -- whether malicious or not -- was made, and the investigation has to be made and judged on its merits. I can see both sides here. Mike needs to collect his information and build a sound defence or at least presentation after consulting with with his legal representative.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Response time for EMT is 60 minutes? That's very surprising, for any region besides Alaska. A town that would allow that to happen is not a town I would want to live in! I guess a residence would have to be well over 50 miles from the nearest town/hospital/volunteer fire department to have a one-hour response time.
    That's why we have evac helicopters here.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  5. #30
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    That's why we have evac helicopters here.
    Same in my locale, either pay 50 dollars a year in insurance premiums, or a 50,000 dollar per ride fee without it, a no brainer to many here at home.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Response time for EMT is 60 minutes? That's very surprising, for any region besides Alaska. A town that would allow that to happen is not a town I would want to live in! I guess a residence would have to be well over 50 miles from the nearest town/hospital/volunteer fire department to have a one-hour response time.
    That's actually quite common for many regions in the lower 48. I grew up in rural Pennsylvania and I would never expect a response time under 45 minutes. I'd expect 60 at about average.

    A few years ago while traveling through Wyoming I stopped at photo pull-off near Devil's Tower and a minivan with folks from the Chicago metro area pulled up next to me with a flat. I offered to help change the tire, but the driver declined stating he called AAA and they'd be there in 20 minutes. I asked him if he was sure (the last gas station I'd passed was over 45 minutes away at highway speeds) they didn't mean they would call back in 20 minutes with an estimated arrival time. He was adamant someone would be arrive in 20 minutes. I hang out taking some photos and sure enough...20 minutes later his cell phone rings and it's road side assistance telling him a tow truck will arrive in about two hours. He proceeds to explode over the phone at the poor AAA rep, then hangs up and goes off on a tirade about what would happen if someone had a true emergency. He refused my second offer to help change the tire; instead he wanted to wait the 2hrs so he could give the poor tow truck driver a piece of his mind.

    I don't think self reliance was one of his strengths.

    Remember when seconds count, help is minutes away.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Uh oh, that doesn't fit the bill does it, B.C.?
    Cut me some slack. It's upstate NY, not the small portion of the state that actually has people in it. Let's give it honorary flyover status along with wesern PA. After all, who goes to those places on purpose (says the guy who lives in a west coast flyover)?

  8. #33
    Avid Cyclist MickeyMaguire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    CDC - Child Passenger Safety Fact Sheet - Motor Vehicle Safety - Injury Center

    That should be enough said, but of course I'll add more.

    With an epidemic of obesity-related diseases now rampant among our youth, almost all of them caused by living a sedentary lifestyle, it should be clear to even the most obtuse person that it is the act of transporting children in cars that is child abuse. Those parents who choose to make and teach healthy lifestyle choices should receive medals. Sadly, we wouldn't have to use up much metal to make these medals.

    By the way, just which flyover state are you in?
    Good reference. Good argument regarding childhood obesity, too.
    If you can't do great things, do small things in a great way. ~Napoleon Hill
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  9. #34
    Senior Member MikeRides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Given the situation and the advantages of having a car available that you describe in the above paragraph, what is keeping you from getting it?
    Because I proved to myself I didn't need one, that's why. A little stubborn thinking there I guess. I just don't like the idea of a car rusting away in my driveway (only to be driven maybe once a month at most).

    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Response time for EMT is 60 minutes? That's very surprising, for any region besides Alaska. A town that would allow that to happen is not a town I would want to live in! I guess a residence would have to be well over 50 miles from the nearest town/hospital/volunteer fire department to have a one-hour response time.
    We live about 45miles from the nearest hospital. The response time may be exaggerated a little but that's what I was told by a distant neighbor, as we never had a serious emergency that required calling 911. I understand the concern with being car free in this situation but in the 5 years we've lived here we never had a urgent emergency *knock on wood*
    "Just ride it until the wheels fall off!"

  10. #35
    Avid Cyclist MickeyMaguire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Response time for EMT is 60 minutes? That's very surprising, for any region besides Alaska. A town that would allow that to happen is not a town I would want to live in! I guess a residence would have to be well over 50 miles from the nearest town/hospital/volunteer fire department to have a one-hour response time.
    That sixty-minute response-time is possible in some places in the state of Pennsylvania. If someone is in a life-threatening accident, having a car available could make the difference between life or death. I am sure that other states in the lower forty-eight may also meet that circumstance. In that situation, I could understand the concern. It would be wise to at least have a backup plan for emergencies.

    Still, it doesn't mean that I agree with government strong-arm tactics. I don't agree with most of what our government seems to do these days, anyway.
    If you can't do great things, do small things in a great way. ~Napoleon Hill
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  11. #36
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    With an epidemic of obesity-related diseases now rampant among our youth, almost all of them caused by living a sedentary lifestyle, it should be clear to even the most obtuse person that it is the act of transporting children in cars that is child abuse.
    How far do you think that specious argument would get the OP when explaining to the caseworker/judge/or any other decision maker on this child welfare issue why the OP doesn't have any credible plan in place to deal with transporting the child in an emergency? Better yet, what do you think will be the result if the OP tries that argument with the military child development, family advocacy people at the local military base as suggested by another poster? Or with any child welfare agency anywhere, flyover country or not?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyMaguire View Post
    That sixty-minute response-time is possible in some places in the state of Pennsylvania. If someone is in a life-threatening accident, having a car available could make the difference between life or death.
    Areas where the EMT response time is almost an hour are likely to also take a person who has a car about that long or longer to reach medical aid (the OP indicates a 45 mile drive). And I'd note that while driving the caregiver would not be in a position to render effective first aid, unlike the case where they are waiting for the arrival of EMTs. In the latter case the caregiver would be in a position to apply pressure to a wound to reduce bleeding and other possible first aid measures such as CPR (helped if needed by instructions from 911 personnel). Clearly it's better to be at the hospital with all the resources there than being treated by the EMT in the ambulance, but if the situation is really life-threatening I'd be at least as concerned that the long car drive without any first-aid care might prove fatal before reaching the hospital.

    I'd also note that one of the most likely situations for a child to be in a life-threatening accident in families that do have a car is that they are in a serious car crash and are now also without a working car to transport the child.

    But I agree that to satisfy the CPS folks it would be good to have a clear plan that might include a set of phone numbers of friends, neighbors, co-workers who have agreed to provide transport in the unlikely event of such an emergency. I can't really imagine that a neighbor would refuse to help transport a critically wounded or ill child to the nearest hospital if the situation arose. But having the pre-planned list might convince the CPS worker to quickly close the case.

  13. #38
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    Contact the office of your elected representative in state government. Doesn't matter what party they are affiliated with, these folks are always looking for a cause like this to get behind.

  14. #39
    Senior Member MikeRides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    How far do you think that specious argument would get the OP when explaining to the caseworker/judge/or any other decision maker on this child welfare issue why the OP doesn't have any credible plan in place to deal with transporting the child in an emergency? Better yet, what do you think will be the result if the OP tries that argument with the military child development, family advocacy people at the local military base as suggested by another poster? Or with any child welfare agency anywhere, flyover country or not?
    Hey! Its not that I'd be completely hopeless in case of an emergency situation, I have friends not far away who will bend over backward to help me out while I would do and have done the same for them in the past, so if I ever needed a car to get someplace in a hurry it wouldn't be hard to get one.

    If I was really unfit to be a parent because of my transportation choices, why hasn't CPS taken her out of my care or expedited a court date yet?

    To show how much I care for her I'm willing to return to a car. I just don't appreciate being forced to do things.
    "Just ride it until the wheels fall off!"

  15. #40
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    I wouldn't let these people force you into car. Put the insurance money you aren't spending into a college savings plan and see what the judge has to say about it.

  16. #41
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeRides View Post
    To show how much I care for her I'm willing to return to a car. I just don't appreciate being forced to do things.
    Though that might sound like a great sacrifice and very noble to some of LCF crowd, don't expect any crocodile tears, sympathy or admiratio from anyone more interested in the welfare of the child than your stand against "The Man."

    What does the mother of the child have to say about any of this?

  17. #42
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Though that might sound like a great sacrifice and very noble to some of LCF crowd, don't expect any crocodile tears, sympathy or admiratio from anyone more interested in the welfare of the child than your stand against "The Man."

    What does the mother of the child have to say about any of this?
    I agree the child's welfare should be first and foremost. I believe the OP already said the mother was aware and OK with it.

    But why the hell do they have no rapid response medical care in this community? In my state we have volunteer fire departments that have the training and equipment to deal with medical emergencies. Not only can they transfer to the hospital much faster and safer with lights and siren, they can provide advanced treatment en route while communicating with an emergency physician.

    Truthfully, if you have to drive somebody for 60 minutes to get them to a hospital ED, you might as well take them on a bike. They're probably going to die either way!


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  18. #43
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Because I'll ruin my suit trying to get to any relatives funerals...it's over 50 miles in some instances.
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
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  19. #44
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I agree the child's welfare should be first and foremost. I believe the OP already said the mother was aware and OK with it.

    But why the hell do they have no rapid response medical care in this community? In my state we have volunteer fire departments that have the training and equipment to deal with medical emergencies. Not only can they transfer to the hospital much faster and safer with lights and siren, they can provide advanced treatment en route while communicating with an emergency physician.

    Truthfully, if you have to drive somebody for 60 minutes to get them to a hospital ED, you might as well take them on a bike. They're probably going to die either way!
    I am wondering about that too... I have lived in some pretty rural areas, but they all had a local VFD within a reasonable range. My local VFD (and I no longer live in a very rural area) gets credit and tax dollars based on the number of EMT/Paramedics that live in the district whether they are active or not. I have been talked into taking the EMT course by the local assistant chief (they pay for it BTW). I go on the inactive list but can be called up in the case of a major emergency.

    One area I lived in the local hospital was 35-40 miles away but they had placed ambulances in a couple of the VFD's and had cross trained some of the local volunteers to drive, and had medical personnel that lived nearby that could respond.

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  20. #45
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    Take a CPR and first aid class together with your step daughter.

    i'm curious, if the community is that worried about the time for emergency services for their children, and any kind of emergency care is truly that far away, then they MUST have an ambulance parked at the school then right?

    I wonder how a person would drive their car while performing CPR.......

  21. #46
    Senior Member MikeRides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Though that might sound like a great sacrifice and very noble to some of LCF crowd, don't expect any crocodile tears, sympathy or admiratio from anyone more interested in the welfare of the child than your stand against "The Man."

    What does the mother of the child have to say about any of this?
    Using this great invention called the internet, I involve her in everything that goes on with her child. Before she was deployed she was car light, she knew I was going to sell my car eventually and supported me raising the kid as a car free parent

    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I agree the child's welfare should be first and foremost. I believe the OP already said the mother was aware and OK with it.

    But why the hell do they have no rapid response medical care in this community? In my state we have volunteer fire departments that have the training and equipment to deal with medical emergencies. Not only can they transfer to the hospital much faster and safer with lights and siren, they can provide advanced treatment en route while communicating with an emergency physician.

    Truthfully, if you have to drive somebody for 60 minutes to get them to a hospital ED, you might as well take them on a bike. They're probably going to die either way!
    The child's welfare is my number one priority.
    We have trained medics in our VFD but the ambulances come from the hospital 45 miles away, whether they have remote locations to sit at to wait for calls I don't know as I've never seen one. Like I said a few posts back, the 60 minute response time was what a neighbor told me about when I first moved here, I never had an emergency where I needed to call 911 to see how long it would take them to show up.

    --

    I'd just like to point out that I have broke down and decided to buy a car, it'll be used mostly for business purposes but also available to cart the kid around when the bikes aren't an option. Nothing fancy but it gets decent fuel mileage, is physically and mechanically sound, and only has 50k on it. Not bad for $3500 after taxes and fees.
    "Just ride it until the wheels fall off!"

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Though that might sound like a great sacrifice and very noble to some of LCF crowd, don't expect any crocodile tears, sympathy or admiratio from anyone more interested in the welfare of the child than your stand against "The Man."

    What does the mother of the child have to say about any of this?
    I think taking a principled stand on important issues is a sign of home where a child's welfare is less likely to be imperiled.

  23. #48
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    Well I'm thoroughly confused

    what happened here?

  24. #49
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeRides View Post
    Using this great invention called the internet, I involve her in everything that goes on with her child. Before she was deployed she was car light, she knew I was going to sell my car eventually and supported me raising the kid as a car free parent

    The child's welfare is my number one priority.
    We have trained medics in our VFD but the ambulances come from the hospital 45 miles away, whether they have remote locations to sit at to wait for calls I don't know as I've never seen one. Like I said a few posts back, the 60 minute response time was what a neighbor told me about when I first moved here, I never had an emergency where I needed to call 911 to see how long it would take them to show up.

    --

    I'd just like to point out that I have broke down and decided to buy a car, it'll be used mostly for business purposes but also available to cart the kid around when the bikes aren't an option. Nothing fancy but it gets decent fuel mileage, is physically and mechanically sound, and only has 50k on it. Not bad for $3500 after taxes and fees.
    I would still find some kind of official estimate on response times. No matter what the caseworker thinks, a private automobile is not a good option for medical emergencies.

    This whole thread--I don't know--a few of the details don't quite add up.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  25. #50
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    Whatever happened to the world? As a kid I rode my bike with no brakes (parents didn't know that bit!) unsupervised everywhere. Now you can be targeted by child services for simply riding a bike with your kid?

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