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  1. #51
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    tandempower, what happened to the mother of your child?
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
    You are forgetting the obvious... men are born brain damaged...
    That's an interesting bit of sociobiology. It sort of resonates with something I was thinking about in terms of why boys tend to experiment more with gross and disgusting things than girls at a certain age. I think it has to do with a male culture of seeking independence from maternal affection, which is geared toward cute things, like babies, baby animals, and things that resemble those. So my son and I were talking about why girls his age are so fixated on cuteness and why, for example, happy meal toys for girls are some cute little plush ball with big eyes whereas the boys' toy will be something cool and elaborate like super mario on a hovercraft. We decided it was because girls like to focus on adoration of cuteness and boys seek independence from that. It's sort of logical if you think of girls as identifying more with their mothers whereas boys are used to being adored as small children by their mothers but identifying in terms of gender as having no potential for motherhood, having babies, etc. This is all very stereotypical and, hopefully, it is changing as more young boys identify with fathers and other men who are more involved in the lives of young children.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    Are you saying women are stupid ... i.e. don't have a strong mind?
    That is a strong twist of what I said indicating a strong but manipulative mind. What I said is that women seem to be more willing to validate different perspectives and prerogatives simply out of social empathy for others, yet they often retract this validation and empathy when it comes to strong-mindedness, especially where the strong-mind is acting in an independent way. Put simply, if you use your strong mind to support and validate someone else's position because they are your friend, many women will accept and validate that - but if you use it to independently criticize or challenge someone else's view as wrong, they will disrespect that. It's like we are required to use our minds to validate each other regardless of right or wrong, and if we don't, others will use their mind-strength to attack us. It's sort of a pack-mentality. I'm not saying there aren't many men who do this too, but it seems there are more men who will stand up to someone else and tell them when they're wrong than there are women. Maybe it's because women see the impoliteness of disagreeing with others so they use their minds to agree and smooth over conflicts instead of addressing them head-on. Saying all this sounds very stereotyping to me, so I'm wondering how much of it is true and how much is just false correlation of legitimate observations with gender stereotypes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    tandempower, what happened to the mother of your child?
    That's a creepy personal question. Why would you delve into that?
    Last edited by tandempower; 08-16-14 at 08:52 AM.

  3. #53
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    tandempower, what happened to the mother of your child?
    Quote Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
    Why would you delve into that?

    How did you and she meet? That is the topic of this thread ... how we meet and get to know people for the purpose of dating, relationships, etc.

    Did you have a car when you two met? Were you car free and she had a car?

    Do you have any experience dating without a car?

  4. #54
    Senior Member Jim from Boston's Avatar
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    Since this thread has gotten analytical about “What Do Women Really Want?” I made this observation about 20 years ago:

    I was watching a talk show that featured Gloria Steinem. Near the end of the interview, the hostess asked Gloria if she had a boyfriend. Gloria chuckled and said yes, but she could not reveal his name because he might get razzed about it. She did add though that he was ”…smart, funny, and a really good dancer". Since GS is such an ardent, analytic, and well-spoken feminist, I extrapolated her remarks into "Steinem’s Triad of What Women Really Want":

    • Smart: So the man can make a good living to provide the Good Things in Life:
      Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
      ...it sure helps to say that you have more money to spend on making your experiences together a lot more enjoyable (if not meaningful)... upgrades to the penthouse suite when you really get to know each other, limousine transport to and from the restaurant, bouquets of flowers bigger than she has seen before, surprise trip to Vegas...
    • Funny: So he can amuse her:
      Quote Originally Posted by katsrevenge View Post
      I am female...When I decided that I had found a guy I ended up with a guy who owned no car, had a giant comic book collection...
    • Good dancer. Explained further by: Ann Landers corollary (attributable to GBS Shaw) ”Dancing is a vertical sublimation of a horizontal inclination.”


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
    …But on Saturday nights, my wife and I get dressed to the nines and go dining and dancing at gregarious Social Hall in a suburb about 10 miles from home. We drive, but even that venue is accessible by subway….
    None of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Tundra_Man View Post
    … going parking and hopping in the back seat. Most public transit providers would frown on that one.
    Note to Wahoonc & Son:

    Quote Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
    My son live in Somerville, MA (Boston) doesn't own a car, his social life is just fine… Sometimes a group will get together and take the T (with people joining the group at different stops) …Doesn't seem to be crimping his style at all.
    That Social Hall is in Malden, just across the Mystic River from Somerville, near the Malden Center (T) stop.
    Last edited by Jim from Boston; 08-16-14 at 11:24 AM.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Cyclosaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
    I notice many men have this attitude of blowing these off as 'small stuff.' Many women would regard such men incredulously for dismissing something as small or irrelevant that they consider important. These are all generalizations, though. There is also a big gap between the way that men and women respect others, generally, I think. Whereas women like the idea of respecting someone else for no other reason than nurturing the other person's ego, men tend to be more dismissive of something someone thinks or feels unless there is more objective reason to do so. Ironically, I often seem to find ways of expressing thoughts that women will actively disrespect without regard to nurturing my ego. I think there's something about strength vs. weakness where if you express a strong mind, women will disrespect you to sort of cut you down. This causes me to wonder why women will validate all sorts of other emotions and expressions but not a strong mind. What's the prejudice against mind about?

    Look, I studied feminism for a long time and there are these feminist memes that people reproduce dogmatically and I tire of hearing them. One is getting offended at the idea that "women need a man to do things for them." I agree that people shouldn't need other people to do things for them. I never said anything about women needing men to tell them anything. All I did was give my analysis of what I believe I have observed and extrapolated from observation and experience. Are you going to tell me I can't do this except for people of my own gender, or maybe not even for anyone except myself. Please, when you're ready to stop observing and reflecting on what other people do, then maybe you can come teach me about how you mind your own business exclusively and not others. Until then, please acknowledge that we all pay attention to and try to understand the way other people work in some way or another.
    Wow. You trying to win some kind of mansplaining contest? That at least would explain this. But it is too bad all the b**ches keep putting you down for your strong mind. Of course, that's just how b**ches are. But you don't need me to tell you that, you got it all figured out.
    Whenever a theory appears to you as the only possible one, take this as a sign that you have neither understood the theory nor the problem which it was intended to solve. -Popper

  6. #56
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post

    Note to Wahoonc & Son:


    That Social Hall is in Malden, just across the Mystic River from Somerville, near the Malden Center (T) stop.
    My son may know where it is. He is an accomplished Ballroom dancer and has won more than one Shagging contest over the years. I am not much a large group social animal. I prefer smaller intimate groups in quiet locations. Probably in a large part due to my substandard hearing. Too much background noise means no conversations for me.

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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    How did you and she meet? That is the topic of this thread ... how we meet and get to know people for the purpose of dating, relationships, etc.

    Did you have a car when you two met? Were you car free and she had a car?

    Do you have any experience dating without a car?
    All good questions. I'm not going to go into catharsis about my personal life, though. I prefer to learn from my own experiences and observations and share my own lessons in a more general form with others. If someone doesn't like what I have to say, nothing is forcing them to accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclosaurus View Post
    Wow. You trying to win some kind of mansplaining contest? That at least would explain this. But it is too bad all the b**ches keep putting you down for your strong mind. Of course, that's just how b**ches are. But you don't need me to tell you that, you got it all figured out.
    I can't tell if this is some kind of sarcastic mimesis of what you perceive to my attitude or what. Maybe if you could explain what you mean more clearly, I could think about it and respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by katsrevenge View Post
    If you want to talk about specific aspects of objectification, specify which. Please don't tell me to go read a book and then come back with questions.

    Please don't tell me there are no men who enjoy a good primp.. because that isn't so. I've only known a few guys who weren't into a bit of primping and they weren't much into things like 'showering' or 'tooth brushing' because of the man.
    This is the problem with stereotyping and even categorization in general. Every individual ultimately draws on various cultural influences and identity-influences in their own way. Boys learn from their mothers and other women as well as other males. They also learn gendered discipline for how to act masculine and avoid femininity. There are so many factors it's ridiculous to argue about how accurately a category can or can't be stereotyped. Group generalizations are simply misguided . . . and yet we perceive categorical patterns and stereotype in our minds.

    In fact, there are a number of cultures in which men are the peacocks while women are more drably dressed. It has nothing to do with 'transcending material consciousness' and everything to do with norms of personal adornment.
    If you really want to boil it down to a fundamental, sub-gender mechanism, it has to do with a bifurcation in consciousness where one can either operate in a mode of representing oneself or other objects to be regarded by others or in a mode of performing functional actions without much, if any, regard for how one appears to others in doing so. So a man or woman could be eating and their consciousness focussed on the food and how it tastes, etc. or how they appear to others while eating, whether they have food on their face, etc. In short, sometimes you're focussed on your appearance and sometimes not. It just so happens that there is a culture of body-image objectification of women that pulls their consciousness more in the direction of focussing on aspects of their appearance. Would you argue that women are objectified more than men, in general? If not, then you should realize that culture also gives men more of a break from thinking in terms of their own appearance as an object, as well as the appearance of their home, etc. Does this mean there aren't countless instances where men focus on the appearance of various aspects of themselves or things they are responsible for, such as a vehicle, their hair, their business, etc. etc.? No, obviously they do that. Still, there remains a certain ethic of transcending superficial aesthetic considerations for more functional concerns, and I would say that ethic is gendered as masculine, but maybe unrightly so.

    *slow blink* I think you may do well by laying off the MMA word salads.
    If you can't read my writing, please don't take cheap shots at me.

    I'm thinking its more you are having trouble finding anyone who will buy this 'strong mind and dismissal of other's feelings' shtick you've come up with.
    This could be its own thread. I once read a button that said, "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." I didn't understand that button at the time because it just seemed fundamental to me that people want to be in romantic relationships. Dating and relationships are a hassle, though. They require work and investment of time, energy, money, etc. So if you go through enough different situations of relationship drama and see the fundamental inevitability of such emotional drama in relationships, it becomes possible to consider avoiding the drama altogether and focussing your time, energy, and money on other things, such as your children or other projects you want to pursue.

    Sometimes I use the example of bike touring to explain the hassle of relationships. If you get off work on a friday and you want to bike somewhere and camp for the weekend, you have to have your rig ready to go right after work, you have to keep moving to make it to your destination at a reasonable time, and generally it would be a pain to have to nurture someone else along if they weren't as focussed and invested in the trip as you were. As such, you can really stick with your plan easier if you're alone and that way you don't have to be a nazi about refusing your partner any little stops or deviations from the plan she might suggest on the way. For some people the companionship is worth the compromise, but if you can be happy without the companionship, you can dispense with having to compromise.

    Humans fart. It's just a thing we do.
    Sorry, there are many drawbacks to sleeping alone but not having to smell someone else's farts in bed isn't one of them.

    Again with the mansplaining. This right here is a good part of the reason why feminism exists. Sheesh.
    Describing a negative trait, or in this case one you consider negative, in terms of a gender category is sexist. I studied feminism for a long time and, unfortunately, some feminist once proclaimed virtue in making the political personal. It took me years to understand the value of depersonalizing politics and science, as a result. It's one thing to analyze sexism and formulate political strategies to remedy it. It's something else to use it as a basis for ad hom attacks and provoking emotional drama. There's really nothing good that comes out of dragging discussion down into the mud, is there?

    Or that you are being a clueless dick. That too.
    Mind watching your language? I'd prefer not to get offended while trying to understand your perspective.

    I actually fell for him after seeing just how sensitive he was with little kids. I don't particularly like kids but hate the way so many men brush them off. He didn't.
    Pair that with an ablity to discuss politics, philosophy and religion and it's nearly 7 years now. Planning the wedding, LOL.
    Congratulations. Longer courtships are supposed to ensure more stabile marriages. I am a big advocate of marital stability and permanent commitment.

    So'kay. Most of us can see his type coming.
    "His type?" Stereotype much? Could it be that I have an independent point of view that just happens to be different from yours?
    Last edited by tandempower; 08-16-14 at 01:50 PM.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Jim from Boston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
    …But on Saturday nights, my wife and I get dressed to the nines and go dining and dancing at gregarious Social Hall in a suburb about 10 miles from home. We drive, but even that venue is accessible by subway….

    Quote Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
    My son may know where it is. He is an accomplished Ballroom dancer and has won more than one Shagging contest over the years....

    Aaron
    Well whaddya know. The website is jacksonsuite,com.

    See my PM.

  9. #59
    covered in cat fur katsrevenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
    I can't tell if this is some kind of sarcastic mimesis of what you perceive to my attitude or what. Maybe if you could explain what you mean more clearly, I could think about it and respond.
    You've been told. By several people. You are choosing to not understand.

    If you want to talk about specific aspects of objectification, specify which. Please don't tell me to go read a book and then come back with questions.
    That is a decently short synopsis. You should see the BOOKS that web page is based on. I've read most of them over the years. Most would be heavy enough to stop a barn door.
    This is the problem with stereotyping and even categorization in general. Every individual ultimately draws on various cultural influences and identity-influences in their own way. Boys learn from their mothers and other women as well as other males. They also learn gendered discipline for how to act masculine and avoid femininity. There are so many factors it's ridiculous to argue about how accurately a category can or can't be stereotyped. Group generalizations are simply misguided . . . and yet we perceive categorical patterns and stereotype in our minds.
    There are some of us who think that 'avoiding femininity', whatever that is supposed to mean, is the wrong way to go about it. It does more harm then good. Men who cannot talk about what is hurting them cannot get help... hence the higher suicide rates in men. The rest is bunk.
    If you really want to boil it down to a fundamental, sub-gender mechanism, it has to do with a bifurcation in consciousness where one can either operate in a mode of representing oneself or other objects to be regarded by others or in a mode of performing functional actions without much, if any, regard for how one appears to others in doing so. So a man or woman could be eating and their consciousness focussed on the food and how it tastes, etc. or how they appear to others while eating, whether they have food on their face, etc. In short, sometimes you're focussed on your appearance and sometimes not. It just so happens that there is a culture of body-image objectification of women that pulls their consciousness more in the direction of focussing on aspects of their appearance. Would you argue that women are objectified more than men, in general? If not, then you should realize that culture also gives men more of a break from thinking in terms of their own appearance as an object, as well as the appearance of their home, etc. Does this mean there aren't countless instances where men focus on the appearance of various aspects of themselves or things they are responsible for, such as a vehicle, their hair, their business, etc. etc.? No, obviously they do that. Still, there remains a certain ethic of transcending superficial aesthetic considerations for more functional concerns, and I would say that ethic is gendered as masculine, but maybe unrightly so.
    Eh... just no.
    {quote]
    If you can't read my writing, please don't take cheap shots at me.
    [/quote]
    Don't BS a BS-er son. While I think I know what you are trying to say... you aren't doing a very good job of expressing yourself. You use 10 dollar words when a 5 dollar word would do the job 100 times better. Your sentence structure is... we shall say 'independent'.. which makes your writing even harder to read.
    And, your thesis seems to be a blend of the nonsense I've seen on MMA boards after reading just enough existentialism to get existentialism on the brain. In short, word salad.

    This could be its own thread. I once read a button that said, "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." I didn't understand that button at the time because it just seemed fundamental to me that people want to be in romantic relationships. Dating and relationships are a hassle, though. They require work and investment of time, energy, money, etc. So if you go through enough different situations of relationship drama and see the fundamental inevitability of such emotional drama in relationships, it becomes possible to consider avoiding the drama altogether and focussing your time, energy, and money on other things, such as your children or other projects you want to pursue.

    Sometimes I use the example of bike touring to explain the hassle of relationships. If you get off work on a friday and you want to bike somewhere and camp for the weekend, you have to have your rig ready to go right after work, you have to keep moving to make it to your destination at a reasonable time, and generally it would be a pain to have to nurture someone else along if they weren't as focussed and invested in the trip as you were. As such, you can really stick with your plan easier if you're alone and that way you don't have to be a nazi about refusing your partner any little stops or deviations from the plan she might suggest on the way. For some people the companionship is worth the compromise, but if you can be happy without the companionship, you can dispense with having to compromise.
    You totally missed the point of the slogan. By a matter of miles. It would be like my white self seeing the 'Black is Beautiful' slogan and thinking about how awesome black cars or clothes are.

    And no.. that isn't how they work. Not if you are doing them right anyways. It isn't a contest or a tally keeping exercise. There is work involved... but there are countless rewards. One of the biggest one for men is a longer life with higher levels of happiness and health.

    Sorry, there are many drawbacks to sleeping alone but not having to smell someone else's farts in bed isn't one of them.
    Ah, you prefer smelling your own I see. LOL

    Describing a negative trait, or in this case one you consider negative, in terms of a gender category is sexist. I studied feminism for a long time and, unfortunately, some feminist once proclaimed virtue in making the political personal. It took me years to understand the value of depersonalizing politics and science, as a result. It's one thing to analyze sexism and formulate political strategies to remedy it. It's something else to use it as a basis for ad hom attacks and provoking emotional drama. There's really nothing good that comes out of dragging discussion down into the mud, is there?
    Let me be blunt. For women, the political is personal. To say that it is not personal is to once again devalue what actual real live women are saying about their reality. Which you have done, repeatedly.

    To then say it 'causes emotional drama' is akin to the old sexist argument that a woman cannot be logical because babies. It was dumb then, it is dumb now. Lives are not a series of logical events. They are feelings, relationships and all of those things you keep on putting down as lesser... and as 'womanly'.

    [/quote]
    Mind watching your language? I'd prefer not to get offended while trying to understand your perspective. [/quote]
    Your offense is not my problem. Don't like it, don't earn it. I respect the censor and do my best to avoid personal attacks. However, I am old enough to not suffer foolish behaviour easily.

    Congratulations. Longer courtships are supposed to ensure more stabile marriages. I am a big advocate of marital stability and permanent commitment.

    "His type?" Stereotype much? Could it be that I have an independent point of view that just happens to be different from yours?
    Thanks. We are happy, that is the important thing.

    Sigh, again. Your viewpoint isn't that original, nor is it unique. Nor is it independent. There are whole sections of reddit dedicated to it, for pity's sake. And even whole forums.. much like BF, but with guys talking about their independence and their good drawing traits... and how all women want is some Alpha stud and how women in the West don't know what Nice Guys they are and on and on and on..

    No. We, like every other human out there, want someone who acts decently and treats 'us' with some respect. And back to the original conversation... transportation has nothing to do with it. It's all attitude.
    Just one of those dirty pinko commies some people worry about.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
    All good questions. I'm not going to go into catharsis about my personal life, though. I prefer to learn from my own experiences and observations and share my own lessons in a more general form with others. If someone doesn't like what I have to say, nothing is forcing them to accept it.

    ....

    Mind watching your language? I'd prefer not to get offended while trying to understand your perspective.


    Congratulations. Longer courtships are supposed to ensure more stabile marriages. I am a big advocate of marital stability and permanent commitment.

    It's remarkable that main participants you are discussing this with have been able to provide perspective on their own lives through this forum, but you refuse to. That is what I am starting to find very creepy.

    I ask again, what happened with the mother of your child? Just so we can get a handle on your perspective. If you don't want to answer, then you are right, your opinions on the matter are not worth a dime, err, reading.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by katsrevenge View Post
    You've been told. By several people. You are choosing to not understand.
    I can sincerely tell you that it is not me choosing not to understand. When you say, "I've been told by several people," I wasn't even aware that the same point, or maybe what seems like the same point to you, has been repeated multiple times in different threads. Of course I understand if what you perceive in me as active resistance or ignorance deters you from wanting to clarify any more. All I can say is that I'm open to understanding if you want to clarify - but I won't promise to agree with a point I haven't even understood yet.

    That is a decently short synopsis. You should see the BOOKS that web page is based on. I've read most of them over the years. Most would be heavy enough to stop a barn door.
    What is the point? To say the word, "objectification?" Either you want to make a point about it or you don't. There are, as you say, encyclopedias on the subject so I'm not going to get into a whole discussion about objectification in general. If there's something pertinent you want discussed here, I'm open to that. Otherwise, what's the point?

    There are some of us who think that 'avoiding femininity', whatever that is supposed to mean, is the wrong way to go about it. It does more harm then good. Men who cannot talk about what is hurting them cannot get help... hence the higher suicide rates in men. The rest is bunk.
    Femininity is a very broad and complex subject as well but to some extent what you're talking about is a trap. Making oneself vulnerable is sort of like focussing all your attention on your vein as the needle goes in to give you a shot. It can have an amplifying effect. That said, there are also ways of observing emotion and experience that allow you to neutralize the emotional compulsions toward certain actions. For example, you can observe anger or pride or lust, envy, etc. and by doing so you step out of those emotions and experience some release/relief from them. That can be therapeutic and/or behaviorally helpful, if you have a problem with expressing anger constructively or neutralizing ego/pride reactions, or controlling lust, etc.

    Don't BS a BS-er son. While I think I know what you are trying to say... you aren't doing a very good job of expressing yourself. You use 10 dollar words when a 5 dollar word would do the job 100 times better. Your sentence structure is... we shall say 'independent'.. which makes your writing even harder to read.
    And, your thesis seems to be a blend of the nonsense I've seen on MMA boards after reading just enough existentialism to get existentialism on the brain. In short, word salad.
    Beware of aesthetic/stylistic criticisms. They are a subtle form of ad hoc response by people who typically either can't or don't want to comprehend/respond to the content of writing. I'm sorry my words and sentence structure are too expensive for your budget. If we converse more, I'm sure I will get a sense of your literary budget and work within that. I'm really not trying to win some kind of academic competition with writing. I do try to use as broad a vocabulary as possible because I believe words exist to be used but that doesn't me I'm trying to play a posturing game. I don't know if you can tell but I don't write articles for academic journals with the way I write.

    You totally missed the point of the slogan. By a matter of miles. It would be like my white self seeing the 'Black is Beautiful' slogan and thinking about how awesome black cars or clothes are.
    I missed the point? Was the point not that relationships are unnecessary for happiness? If not, what was the point exactly and what does your white self and 'black is beautiful' have to do with it? Are you saying it only applies to women and not men, i.e. that the slogan can't be just as easily written, "a man needs a woman like a fish needs a bicycle?" I would also ask you if you think there's something special about race that makes it impossible for people to empathize across racialized lines but I've known enough pushers of 'difference' to guess you will probably attack me for daring to suggest that someone without a black body could comprehend any aspect of 'black experience.' I think that is wrong but you can't explain it to someone who derives a sense of power from admonishing people for thinking they can identify with experiences outside of the categories culturally imposed on them and others.

    And no.. that isn't how they work. Not if you are doing them right anyways. It isn't a contest or a tally keeping exercise. There is work involved... but there are countless rewards. One of the biggest one for men is a longer life with higher levels of happiness and health.
    Relationships involve a certain amount of addiction. This colors your perception of them when you are in one. It took me a long time being out of one to gain perspective on the way I experienced and understood them while I was in one. Don't assume being single doesn't have countless rewards as well. I think you are defending the honor of being in a relationship the way an wine-lover defends the health benefits of red wine or the way pot smokers defend the medical benefits of marijuana. Reality is you can live healthy without wine, marijuana, and relationships and that each delivers pleasures that are addictive and bias the minds of their users in favor of the 'substance.' I'm not saying being in a relationship is necessarily as bad for you as using drugs or alcohol, just that they have similar effects on the users' evaluation of their goodness and necessity.

    Ah, you prefer smelling your own I see. LOL
    You just won't let this topic go, will you?

    Let me be blunt. For women, the political is personal. To say that it is not personal is to once again devalue what actual real live women are saying about their reality. Which you have done, repeatedly.
    So now you speak for all women and all women are homogeneous? Are you saying that no women prefer to depersonalize politics and science for the sake of achieving a more objective, emotionally neutral stance? Are you saying that only men are capable of doing that or that only men would ever choose to? If so, why?

    To then say it 'causes emotional drama' is akin to the old sexist argument that a woman cannot be logical because babies. It was dumb then, it is dumb now. Lives are not a series of logical events. They are feelings, relationships and all of those things you keep on putting down as lesser... and as 'womanly'.
    I see zero connection with the 'old sexist argument' you describe. Do you like to get super-drunk and get in a bar brawl and feel intense drunken love for people around you and then vomit on your way home? If not, you can understand why I prefer to avoid the emotional drama that comes with dating and relationships. I am quite happy to experience all the platonic love and other positive emotions that come with social interaction outside of dating and relationships. Maybe I'm too sensitive but more intensity is not going to make me happier and I've matured enough to realize that about myself by this point, thank you for your concern.

    Your offense is not my problem. Don't like it, don't earn it. I respect the censor and do my best to avoid personal attacks. However, I am old enough to not suffer foolish behaviour easily.
    I respect you telling me if I offended you and explaining your position but I don't think it's necessary to use rude or offensive language. No need to stoke flame wars.

    Thanks. We are happy, that is the important thing.
    Amen; just please don't start singing the Will Pherrel song or I'll start feeling like a room without a roof.

    Sigh, again. Your viewpoint isn't that original, nor is it unique. Nor is it independent. There are whole sections of reddit dedicated to it, for pity's sake. And even whole forums.. much like BF, but with guys talking about their independence and their good drawing traits... and how all women want is some Alpha stud and how women in the West don't know what Nice Guys they are and on and on and on..
    This is a common misunderstanding about independence. I can't say that my viewpoint or thoughts are unique just because I developed them independently but I can say that in my own reasoning process, these are things I have come to think so in that sense I am thinking independently and not just mindlessly conforming to something I heard or read elsewhere.

    No. We, like every other human out there, want someone who acts decently and treats 'us' with some respect. And back to the original conversation... transportation has nothing to do with it. It's all attitude.
    Again you're speaking for all women as a homogeneous 'we.' I understand you're human and female. I HOPE you have an independent mind but how can I know for sure without knowing you personally? If your view is that attitude is everything, then why don't you just own it as an individual? If that's your view, expect respect for it at the level of an independent individual. You don't have to locate yourself within a collective to deserve respect.

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    Senior Member Cyclosaurus's Avatar
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    tandempower: you're a paternalistic creep. No one is misunderstanding what you are saying. You embody the "pay attention women, a man is talking" attitude. Even though what you are saying is nonsense. Doesn't matter to you, women should "nurture your ego" anyway. Give it up. If you can't walk this one back and admit you were offensive, then just walk away. You aren't going to convince anyone how smart you are by continuing your misogynistic arguments. Not that it isn't entertaining, mind you, but it will get old soon.
    Whenever a theory appears to you as the only possible one, take this as a sign that you have neither understood the theory nor the problem which it was intended to solve. -Popper

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    covered in cat fur katsrevenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
    I can sincerely tell you that it is not me choosing not to understand. When you say, "I've been told by several people," I wasn't even aware that the same point, or maybe what seems like the same point to you, has been repeated multiple times in different threads. Of course I understand if what you perceive in me as active resistance or ignorance deters you from wanting to clarify any more. All I can say is that I'm open to understanding if you want to clarify - but I won't promise to agree with a point I haven't even understood yet.


    What is the point? To say the word, "objectification?" Either you want to make a point about it or you don't. There are, as you say, encyclopedias on the subject so I'm not going to get into a whole discussion about objectification in general. If there's something pertinent you want discussed here, I'm open to that. Otherwise, what's the point?


    Femininity is a very broad and complex subject as well but to some extent what you're talking about is a trap. Making oneself vulnerable is sort of like focussing all your attention on your vein as the needle goes in to give you a shot. It can have an amplifying effect. That said, there are also ways of observing emotion and experience that allow you to neutralize the emotional compulsions toward certain actions. For example, you can observe anger or pride or lust, envy, etc. and by doing so you step out of those emotions and experience some release/relief from them. That can be therapeutic and/or behaviorally helpful, if you have a problem with expressing anger constructively or neutralizing ego/pride reactions, or controlling lust, etc.


    Beware of aesthetic/stylistic criticisms. They are a subtle form of ad hoc response by people who typically either can't or don't want to comprehend/respond to the content of writing. I'm sorry my words and sentence structure are too expensive for your budget. If we converse more, I'm sure I will get a sense of your literary budget and work within that. I'm really not trying to win some kind of academic competition with writing. I do try to use as broad a vocabulary as possible because I believe words exist to be used but that doesn't me I'm trying to play a posturing game. I don't know if you can tell but I don't write articles for academic journals with the way I write.


    I missed the point? Was the point not that relationships are unnecessary for happiness? If not, what was the point exactly and what does your white self and 'black is beautiful' have to do with it? Are you saying it only applies to women and not men, i.e. that the slogan can't be just as easily written, "a man needs a woman like a fish needs a bicycle?" I would also ask you if you think there's something special about race that makes it impossible for people to empathize across racialized lines but I've known enough pushers of 'difference' to guess you will probably attack me for daring to suggest that someone without a black body could comprehend any aspect of 'black experience.' I think that is wrong but you can't explain it to someone who derives a sense of power from admonishing people for thinking they can identify with experiences outside of the categories culturally imposed on them and others.


    Relationships involve a certain amount of addiction. This colors your perception of them when you are in one. It took me a long time being out of one to gain perspective on the way I experienced and understood them while I was in one. Don't assume being single doesn't have countless rewards as well. I think you are defending the honor of being in a relationship the way an wine-lover defends the health benefits of red wine or the way pot smokers defend the medical benefits of marijuana. Reality is you can live healthy without wine, marijuana, and relationships and that each delivers pleasures that are addictive and bias the minds of their users in favor of the 'substance.' I'm not saying being in a relationship is necessarily as bad for you as using drugs or alcohol, just that they have similar effects on the users' evaluation of their goodness and necessity.


    You just won't let this topic go, will you?


    So now you speak for all women and all women are homogeneous? Are you saying that no women prefer to depersonalize politics and science for the sake of achieving a more objective, emotionally neutral stance? Are you saying that only men are capable of doing that or that only men would ever choose to? If so, why?


    I see zero connection with the 'old sexist argument' you describe. Do you like to get super-drunk and get in a bar brawl and feel intense drunken love for people around you and then vomit on your way home? If not, you can understand why I prefer to avoid the emotional drama that comes with dating and relationships. I am quite happy to experience all the platonic love and other positive emotions that come with social interaction outside of dating and relationships. Maybe I'm too sensitive but more intensity is not going to make me happier and I've matured enough to realize that about myself by this point, thank you for your concern.


    I respect you telling me if I offended you and explaining your position but I don't think it's necessary to use rude or offensive language. No need to stoke flame wars.


    Amen; just please don't start singing the Will Pherrel song or I'll start feeling like a room without a roof.


    This is a common misunderstanding about independence. I can't say that my viewpoint or thoughts are unique just because I developed them independently but I can say that in my own reasoning process, these are things I have come to think so in that sense I am thinking independently and not just mindlessly conforming to something I heard or read elsewhere.


    Again you're speaking for all women as a homogeneous 'we.' I understand you're human and female. I HOPE you have an independent mind but how can I know for sure without knowing you personally? If your view is that attitude is everything, then why don't you just own it as an individual? If that's your view, expect respect for it at the level of an independent individual. You don't have to locate yourself within a collective to deserve respect.
    Sigh. Not getting through am I? Ah well... at least I have the opportunity to post this gem:


    Farts are AWESOME.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclosaurus View Post
    tandempower: you're a paternalistic creep. No one is misunderstanding what you are saying. You embody the "pay attention women, a man is talking" attitude. Even though what you are saying is nonsense. Doesn't matter to you, women should "nurture your ego" anyway. Give it up. If you can't walk this one back and admit you were offensive, then just walk away. You aren't going to convince anyone how smart you are by continuing your misogynistic arguments. Not that it isn't entertaining, mind you, but it will get old soon.
    Agreed.
    It can be entertaining....but it's cutting into my sims time...

    Good luck OP.
    Just one of those dirty pinko commies some people worry about.

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    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katsrevenge View Post
    And, your thesis seems to be a blend of the nonsense I've seen on MMA boards after reading just enough existentialism to get existentialism on the brain. In short, word salad.
    What does MMA represent?

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    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    I ask again, what happened with the mother of your child?
    Have you transposed the "objects" of you question?

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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Have you transposed the "objects" of you question?
    Dream. Dare. Do.

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    covered in cat fur katsrevenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    What does MMA represent?
    My bad... I meant MRM. The so-called 'men's rights movement'.
    MRM: The Men’s Rights Movement: A loosely defined, but largely retrograde, collection of activists and internet talkers who fight for what they see as “men’s rights.” Unlike the original Men’s Movement, which was inspired by and heavily influenced by feminism, the self-described Men’s Rights Movement is largely a reactionary movement; with few exceptions, Men’s Rights Activists (or MRAs) are pretty rabidly antifeminist, and many are frankly and sometimes proudly misogynistic. Those who oppose the MRM are generally not against men’s rights per se; they are opposed to those who’ve turned those two words into a synonym for some pretty backwards notions.


    MGTOW: Men Going Their Own Way: As the name suggests, MGTOW is a lot like lesbian separatism, but for straight dudes. MGTOW often talk vaguely about seeking “independence” from western and/or consumer culture, and a few MGTOW try to live that sort of zen existence. But most of those who embrace the term have a deep hostility towards and/or profound distrust of feminists and women in general. Many MGTOW refuse to date “western women” and some try to avoid women altogether. I think the Man Going His Own Way acronym MGHOW adds another layer of confusion to an already awkward acronym, so I use MGTOWer instead.
    from
    WTF is a MGTOW? A Glossary | we hunted the mammoth
    Just one of those dirty pinko commies some people worry about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclosaurus View Post
    tandempower: you're a paternalistic creep.
    I went through a very strong anti-paternalistic phase after reading very harsh criticism of it in feminist literature. After a while I figured out that direct paternalism empowers people more with the freedom to resist than does indirect hostility such as the kind of subtle degrading and manipulating you are doing by calling me a 'creep,' etc. What you should realize about paternalism is that when someones says explicitly and prescriptively that something 'should' happen, that you have the freedom to disagree without attacking them for being paternalistic. On the other hand, when someone uses more gentle, non-paternalistic language like saying, "you can be less paternalistic if you choose," they are also being prescriptive but in a more subtle way and they may actually act more hostile toward you if you 'choose' not to obey their prescription.

    No one is misunderstanding what you are saying. You embody the "pay attention women, a man is talking" attitude.
    What are you talking about? My authoritative tone? If so, it has nothing to do with women or men paying attention to me because of my gender. I write what I write and I put my reasoning into my writing so if there's a reason to listen to what I say, it is because you grasp the reasoning and accept it as valid. If you don't grasp it or validate it, what can I possibly do to make you? What is with the ad hom attacking of my writing style or tone, etc.?

    Even though what you are saying is nonsense. Doesn't matter to you, women should "nurture your ego" anyway. Give it up. If you can't walk this one back and admit you were offensive, then just walk away. You aren't going to convince anyone how smart you are by continuing your misogynistic arguments. Not that it isn't entertaining, mind you, but it will get old soon.
    When did I say that "women should nurture my ego?" I think you are slightly twisting something I said about women generally validating others purely for the sake of nurturing their egos, i.e. not because they are right but just to nurture them, without assessing right vs. wrong. My point was that I've noticed this social validation for its own sake isn't ubiquitous. They withhold it from me, for example. I'm not complaining about that or saying that they should give me validation purely for the sake of nurturing me. What I really think is that anyone should validate what is right only because it is right and not if its wrong. You can nurture and validate people's existence in other ways that doesn't involve lying about them being right. I could say, for example, that I think you're wrong about something but I deeply appreciate your commitment to rigorous thought. That's all I was saying. I'm tired of getting attacked. Why must I get attacked?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    It's remarkable that main participants you are discussing this with have been able to provide perspective on their own lives through this forum, but you refuse to. That is what I am starting to find very creepy.
    If people like to share aspects of their personal life, isn't that their choice? I share some stories but not too much because I know I will feel like I'm prostituting myself if I divulge much personal information. This doesn't mean I view others who do so as prostituting themselves. It's just a feeling I get after I share intimate aspects of my personal life with strangers. Can you not respect that or do you have to harass me in the direction of divulging information I don't care to. Am I obliged to reciprocate whatever someone else chooses to do of their own voluntary choice? If so, maybe someone could ask me next time before obliging me and then withhold whatever they want to say that I don't feel like reciprocating.

    I ask again, what happened with the mother of your child? Just so we can get a handle on your perspective. If you don't want to answer, then you are right, your opinions on the matter are not worth a dime, err, reading.
    My opinions are worth whatever sense they make to you. If you don't recognize any truth in what I say or in my reasoning, than what would possibly convince you based on information about my personal relationships? Sometimes I'd really like to understand the logic people apply in their reasoning. Do you actually think about why my personal story would somehow validate or invalidate things I say or is it just a kneejerk assumption that you maintain subconsciously?

  20. #70
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclosaurus View Post
    tandempower: you're a paternalistic creep. No one is misunderstanding what you are saying. You embody the "pay attention women, a man is talking" attitude. Even though what you are saying is nonsense. Doesn't matter to you, women should "nurture your ego" anyway. Give it up. If you can't walk this one back and admit you were offensive, then just walk away. You aren't going to convince anyone how smart you are by continuing your misogynistic arguments. Not that it isn't entertaining, mind you, but it will get old soon.
    +1

    This thread has been an interesting revelation into tandempower's character.

  21. #71
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Since this thread is not about tandempower's unfortunate view of the world, shall we return to the original question ....


    Quote Originally Posted by tariqa View Post
    SO for those that lived and survived to tell about it, or have any suggestions, how is it possible to live car free and maintain a decent dating life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
    If people like to share aspects of their personal life, isn't that their choice? I share some stories but not too much because I know I will feel like I'm prostituting myself if I divulge much personal information. This doesn't mean I view others who do so as prostituting themselves. It's just a feeling I get after I share intimate aspects of my personal life with strangers. Can you not respect that or do you have to harass me in the direction of divulging information I don't care to. Am I obliged to reciprocate whatever someone else chooses to do of their own voluntary choice? If so, maybe someone could ask me next time before obliging me and then withhold whatever they want to say that I don't feel like reciprocating.


    My opinions are worth whatever sense they make to you. If you don't recognize any truth in what I say or in my reasoning, than what would possibly convince you based on information about my personal relationships? Sometimes I'd really like to understand the logic people apply in their reasoning. Do you actually think about why my personal story would somehow validate or invalidate things I say or is it just a kneejerk assumption that you maintain subconsciously?
    Because it would help us all understand why you have such a jaundiced view of so many aspects of life. Or if you want to be polite, why you are such a damaged person that you don't seem to have any happiness to sustain your life.

    Bear in mind, my desire to find out more of you relates to all the other junk you have posted in these forums over the past months, not just this thread.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  23. #73
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    This is not the first thread about dating while being car-free ... for reference ...







    And I have to wonder if tandempower used to be known as Spaceman Spiff ... or if they are just soul mates ...
    Cars and Dating

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    +1

    This thread has been an interesting revelation into tandempower's character.
    No revelation on character here. The thread has been consistent with all the other weird stuff previously posted. See post below.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Bear in mind, my desire to find out more of you relates to all the other junk you have posted in these forums over the past months, not just this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Because it would help us all understand why you have such a jaundiced view of so many aspects of life. Or if you want to be polite, why you are such a damaged person that you don't seem to have any happiness to sustain your life.
    Don't be presumptuous. A smoker can call a non-smoker 'jaundiced' for giving up smoking but it's a 'smoking-centric' projection. You are also projecting things onto me and looking for explanations that pathologize me because you don't like the differences between us, presumably. Again I ask, why must I be attacked?

    Bear in mind, my desire to find out more of you relates to all the other junk you have posted in these forums over the past months, not just this thread.
    So it's a broader ad hom project? Why exactly are you stalking me through the forum?

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