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Thread: Two charts.

  1. #26
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Even more eye opening than your previous post with the transit plundering allegation. Who or what government organization do you plan to sue? Are the two charts supposed to be evidence of this plundering for your proposed lawsuit?
    This site has nothing to do with SEPTA, at all.

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  2. #27
    Senior Member Smallwheels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    I knew it ... you've never been to those countries. Let's just say that the reality is quite different from your imagination.
    Please explain what you mean. Google Maps shows that the large Australian and Canadian cities are just as spread out as the ones in the USA. There are large distances between major cities. Both countries have plenty of sprawl.
    Smallwheels

    Take my stuff, please. I have way too much. My current goal is to have all of my possessions fit onto a large bicycle trailer. Really.

  3. #28
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post
    Please explain what you mean. Google Maps shows that the large Australian and Canadian cities are just as spread out as the ones in the USA. There are large distances between major cities. Both countries have plenty of sprawl.
    I've already talked about this in other threads, but for a start ...

    Mainland US and Australia are about the same land area ... and Canada is slightly larger.


    US Population: 318,605,000

    Canada Population: 35,427,524

    Australia Population: 23,572,700

    List of countries by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Canada's population is 12% of USA's population.
    Australia's population 7% of USA's population.

    Kind of hard for Canada and Australia to have the same sprawl as the US ... neither are even close USA's population.


    Also ...

    The US has 34 cities over 500,000 ...... and only 13% of the entire population of US live in those 34 cities.

    Canada has 9 cities over 500,000 ...... and 44% of the entire population of Canada live in those 9 cities.

    Australia has 6 cities over 500,000 ...... and 64% of the entire population of Australia live in those 6 cities.

    List of United States cities by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    List of the 100 largest population centres in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    List of cities in Australia by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There's just no comparison.


    And contrary to what some might believe ... Canada is not one great year-round wintery glacier.

  4. #29
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    Plundered, to the point of liability. I actually plan to file a suit myself when i get a case organized, lawyer, etc. Obviously many, many, numerous countless complaints and vocal protests are not enough and legal action is required. Clearly stated in every post under my username is my location (newtown, pa) which is clearly within the regional operating locale of SEPTA (transit). Hope that helps you understand vs assume.

    - Andy
    Oh yeah ... we understand now.

  5. #30
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    That top chart seems inverted. After two weeks in Shanghai, I couldn't wait to get back to Los Angeles where I could breathe!
    While the USA has plenty of cars, we do have catalytic converters in them which reduce the emissions immensely. Many of these other countries have little or no emissions reduction equipment.

    That being said, the automobile is vastly overused. I once had an employer that would drive ACROSS THE STREET (U-turn and all) to get to the donut shop for a coffee.

  6. #31
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moab91 View Post
    That top chart seems inverted.
    Well you do have do the calculations ... the ones that are conveniently missing.

    Those CO2 emissions are kg/person/year ... so you have to multiply the population of each of those countries by the alleged CO2 emissions. Then you'll get a more realistic chart.

    Assuming, of course, that the CO2 emissions in that chart are accurate.


    The US still tops the charts, but all of a sudden China moves well up the list. And Canada and Australia drop to near the bottom.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    Ah, well, if what Australian voters are tired of becomes the touchstone for debate on the environment, or on other contentious issues, we're all in some trouble.
    The fact is the electorate is turning against the environmental political movement because it has an inability to see that its tactics aren't working. It doesn't matter if it's Australia, or Europe or America or Asia.

    If people really cared about it all, they would become more active directly.

    There was a great article the other day on news.com.au, suggesting the age of IT has made people into "slacktivists" -- people who think they are making a great contribution to global change by clicking a FB "like" or following some celebrity on Twitter.

    Take this thread as an example. Instead of saving or crowd sourcing or influencing private investors and getting the funds to set up a transport system that works the way he wants it, the OP is going to take legal action for "plundering".

    Yeah, I'd like to see that.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  8. #33
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    What I find interesting is the contrast between European cities and the US cities. The US amount is three times that of European cities they have a quality of life equal to, or better than, many Americans.

    27 or 28 percent of US total carbon emmisions are from transportation sources of which 59 percent are from light vehicles. I found these figures from the Center for Cimate and Energy Solutions, Transportation Overview | Center for Climate and Energy Solutions .

  9. #34
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    Apathy.
    +1

  10. #35
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    The fact is the electorate is turning against the environmental political movement because it has an inability to see that its tactics aren't working. It doesn't matter if it's Australia, or Europe or America or Asia.

    If people really cared about it all, they would become more active directly.

    There was a great article the other day on news.com.au, suggesting the age of IT has made people into "slacktivists" -- people who think they are making a great contribution to global change by clicking a FB "like" or following some celebrity on Twitter.

    Take this thread as an example. Instead of saving or crowd sourcing or influencing private investors and getting the funds to set up a transport system that works the way he wants it, the OP is going to take legal action for "plundering".

    Yeah, I'd like to see that.
    HAHAH. That gave me a good chuckle, thanks. This thread is simply here to see how people in the car free forum feel about these charts, nothing more, nothing less. I've been living car free for 22 years, and i am active in the community and i volunteer every spare minute i have. To compare me to someone looking for "likes", you are barking up the wrong tree. I honestly don't give a damn about facebook. Nowhere did i say take legal action for plundering, i'm taking legal action to get a rail line restored to service in light of fantastic single occupant traffic clogs caused by lack of transit options. This thread is not about that, unrelated to it, i was simply sharing why i was frustrated. Now, if you're done assuming, feel free to stick to topic.

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  11. #36
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post
    feel free to stick to topic.
    What topic???

  12. #37
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironwood View Post
    What I find interesting is the contrast between European cities and the US cities. The US amount is three times that of European cities they have a quality of life equal to, or better than, many Americans.

    27 or 28 percent of US total carbon emmisions are from transportation sources of which 59 percent are from light vehicles. I found these figures from the Center for Cimate and Energy Solutions, Transportation Overview | Center for Climate and Energy Solutions .
    Indeed. The issue is two-fold, i think. One half is lack of alterantives to driving, the other is making it seem normal and acceptable somehow to drive 80-120 minutes a day to get to a place of employment. According to the census maps, most of the area around where i live, and i mean like a good 20 mile radius, has a 60+ minute commute by car. One person driving x distance puts x number of kg of co2 in the atmosphere. I mean, even carpooling has really not caught on in the US aside from in small smatterings here and there, and generally it's the butt of jokes vs being seen as a solution to cut vehicular trips.

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  13. #38
    Senior Member TransitBiker's Avatar
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    I should also point out, that the graphic depicting a recent decreasing trend, is largely due to the global economic recession resulting from the sub-prime lending crisis, of which we are still struggling to substantially recover from. Jobs numbers state to state in the US have shown some bounce-back, but it will take significant changes in hiring & retention policy by medium & large businesses to truly recover. One thing that has been probably irreversibly affected (at least for now) is people who did not need to work ie sole breadwinner makes enough & secondary person is no longer participating in employment, older folks opting for early retirement, full timers switching to part time, things of that nature.

    - Andy
    I can't wait for the next pint of good chocolate milk after a long ride.

  14. #39
    Senior Member Smallwheels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitBiker View Post


    - Andy
    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    I've already talked about this in other threads, but for a start ...

    Mainland US and Australia are about the same land area ... and Canada is slightly larger.


    US Population: 318,605,000

    Canada Population: 35,427,524

    Australia Population: 23,572,700

    List of countries by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Canada's population is 12% of USA's population.
    Australia's population 7% of USA's population.

    Kind of hard for Canada and Australia to have the same sprawl as the US ... neither are even close USA's population.


    Also ...

    The US has 34 cities over 500,000 ...... and only 13% of the entire population of US live in those 34 cities.

    Canada has 9 cities over 500,000 ...... and 44% of the entire population of Canada live in those 9 cities.

    Australia has 6 cities over 500,000 ...... and 64% of the entire population of Australia live in those 6 cities.

    List of United States cities by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    List of the 100 largest population centres in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    List of cities in Australia by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There's just no comparison.


    And contrary to what some might believe ... Canada is not one great year-round wintery glacier.
    As I look at this chart is says kg/person/year. The larger part of the bars represent pollution from personal transporation. So even though the populations of Candada and Australia are small the individuals in these affluent nations are more likely to own cars and use them a lot.

    Look at maps of the cities in Canada and Australia. Look at city maps with streets. Choose street view if you like. See that the cities of Canada and Australia are just as spread out as the ones in the USA. They might have fewer of them but their designs are the same. Plenty of suburbs spread out away from the center of the cities. That is sprawl. That is not good for people living car free.

    How would these graphs look if 75% of the populations of the USA used public transportation? The extra trains and buses would be using more fuel too. How much would that bar shrink in the kg/person/year measurement?

    Montana is not one great year-round wintery glacier, though we have a few.
    Smallwheels

    Take my stuff, please. I have way too much. My current goal is to have all of my possessions fit onto a large bicycle trailer. Really.

  15. #40
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post
    Look at maps of the cities in Canada and Australia. Look at city maps with streets. Choose street view if you like. See that the cities of Canada and Australia are just as spread out as the ones in the USA. They might have fewer of them but their designs are the same. Plenty of suburbs spread out away from the center of the cities. That is sprawl. That is not good for people living car free.

    Montana is not one great year-round wintery glacier, though we have a few.
    Look closer and you'll discover that the cities in Canada and Australia tend to favour multi-use development suburbs ... a good choice for those who want to live car-free or car-light.

    Turn the terrain setting on and you'll see why the Australian cities (and some of the Canadian cities) have developed in the shape they appear on a map.

    Visit places like Winnipeg in July and you might be surprised at the temperature.

  16. #41
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Also, is passenger transport the ONLY source of COČ emissions? Is passenger transport even the most significant source of COČ emissions in any country?
    Electricity is the top source. Transportation is a very close second.

    I think that in order to make any headway on the problem of carbon emissions, we're going to have to work in all countries and in all sectors that emit carbon--electricity, agriculture, and industry as well as transportation. Of course this carfree forum is probably more interested in the transportation sector. For myself and others, reducing my carbon footprint is my main reason for being carfree. I'm sorry if that doesn't sit well with you.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  17. #42
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironwood View Post
    What I find interesting is the contrast between European cities and the US cities. The US amount is three times that of European cities they have a quality of life equal to, or better than, many Americans.

    27 or 28 percent of US total carbon emmisions are from transportation sources of which 59 percent are from light vehicles. I found these figures from the Center for Cimate and Energy Solutions, Transportation Overview | Center for Climate and Energy Solutions .
    +1. Americans and Europeans both enjoy very comfortable urban lifestyles, but the Europeans manage to pollute less and live just as well.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  18. #43
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    For myself and others, reducing my carbon footprint is my main reason for being carfree. I'm sorry if that doesn't sit well with you.
    What "sits well" with me or not was not the question or the subject of this thread. Feel "sorry" for yourself instead for your own apparent need to create a straw man argument in order to add a gratuitous snide comment to close out an otherwise on topic response

  19. #44
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Also, is passenger transport the ONLY source of COČ emissions? Is passenger transport even the most significant source of COČ emissions in any country?
    I think that transport in general accounts for about 14% of greenhouse gas emissions (from IPCC reports), and personal transport in the USA appears to be a bit more than half the total vehicle-miles (USDOT, Bureau of Transportation Statistics, Table 1-35: U.S. Vehicle-Miles)

    I think that the posted charts are deceptive with respect to greenhouse gas emissions of the USA vs other countries.

  20. #45
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    The US emits a great deal more CO2 than any other country on a per person basis, and much of it is because of our overuse of automobiles. Until we own up to this, nothing will be done about the problem, and our children and grandchildren are doomed to nasty lives. It's really as simple as that. We need to accept responsibility for our own actions, rather than trying to blame our own stupidity on the rest of the world.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert C View Post
    because of th ecultural assocation of bicycles with poverty, bicycles do not ever have any right of way. Confucian ethics, as practiced, say than an unimportant person must always give way, in all ways, to important people. Further, ones importance is determined by personal, or family, wealth. As such, bicyclists, engaged in an activity of the poor, are in error if they fail to give way.

    This makes the cities very unfriendly to cycling and create a large social incentive to not allow ones family members to ride a bicycle for transportation; both for reasons of safety and the social signaling effect it has on the family. Further, one has to suspect all official numbers coming out of China. The people do not respect official reports, and for good reason. Remember, the purpose of social research in China is to make ones leader look good, not to reflect actual conditions. Going back to Confucian ethics, truth is significantly less important than appearances.
    Interesting. I always think of cyclists as being more important because they are reducing the traffic congestion on the roads by one vehicle each.

    I looked up some Confucius quotes that resonate with the ethic of bicycling:

    Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.

    It does not matter how slowly you go as long as you do not stop.

    Humility is the solid foundation of all virtues.

    In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of.

    Without feelings of respect, what is there to distinguish men from beasts?

    Read more at Confucius Quotes - BrainyQuote

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    The US emits a great deal more CO2 than any other country on a per person basis, and much of it is because of our overuse of automobiles. Until we own up to this, nothing will be done about the problem, and our children and grandchildren are doomed to nasty lives. It's really as simple as that. We need to accept responsibility for our own actions, rather than trying to blame our own stupidity on the rest of the world.
    While I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your statement, we're not number one, not even among "western" nations, for per capita emissions. (Rowan and Machka are living in one of the countries that "beats" us.)

    List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  23. #48
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    While I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your statement, we're not number one, not even among "western" nations, for per capita emissions. (Rowan and Machka are living in one of the countries that "beats" us.)

    List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    But keep in mind that our population over here is 7% that of the US.

  24. #49
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    But keep in mind that our population over here is 7% that of the US.
    Irrelevant. The per capita numbers are much more meaningful thAn total by country. Australia and the US are both way too high. China is more on target.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  25. #50
    Senior Member gregjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    And contrary to what some might believe ... Canada is not one great year-round wintery glacier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    Visit places like Winnipeg in July and you might be surprised at the temperature.
    My Canadian experiences are limited to several trips. I did drive trucks out of Wisconsin to Seattle or Long Beach for close to a decade.

    I was told when I first moved to Wisconsin that contrary to what I might have been told there are 4 distinct seasons.

    June, July, August, Winter.

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