tandempower

As Thanksgiving approaches, it is a good time to remember how a holiday that began as gratitude for providence in a time of scarcity has turned into a gluttonous expression of waste as celebration of abundance. The question is whether part of your reason for choosing to live car free has to do with fuel conservation and, if so, how does it make you feel when you are willing to put so much time and effort into conserving fuel for everyone's great grandchildren's great grandchildren while so many others are willing to waste it for no other reason than to bring the price per gallon down so they can waste even more at the lowest price possible?

Dave Cutter

I don't get it.

You realize that the holiday is about thanking an all powerful creator for his endless gifts to mankind..... Yet you presume a responsibly for "conserving fuel for everyone's great grandchildren's great grandchildren" Did God die or something? Or did you just lose faith?

I think it's wonderful that you have concerns for the future... even though they are very likely just misplaced emotions. Of course no man alive can foresee the energy sources that will be in use in the future. B tomorrows future energy future is likely rich in resources... that you fail to imagine.

wolfchild

I don't think most LCF people are interested in sitting in their homes with lights and heat turned off to conserve energy and eating cold gruel next to a dim candlelight on their thanksgiving day while worrying about "what may happen" to future generations 200 or 300 years from now.
It's not a sin to celebrate abundance.

350htrr

Ha, Ha, I like your title... "Conserving fuel for others to waste"... That really sums it up... Until everyone starts to conserve/reduce their dependence on oil for fuel for everyday life, mankind is in for some major problems in the future... JMO

Zedoo

Burning all of the oil and coal that humans can get is a certainty. When there's none left, survivors will learn how to live without it, in whatever is left of their environment.

Dave Cutter

Oil (not coal) is the result of decomposing (oxidation) iron (latest science). Seeing that 2/3 of the planets solid material is iron.... I think we're good to go with oil and gas. Still lots of reasons to conserve though!

If you have no faith in God the Thanksgiving Holiday... is just a big meal. If you have faith... why would you take it upon yourself to make God's plans?

It doesn't matter whether you think scientifically or religiously.... this whole planet Earth thing isn't going to last forever. And there isn't anything you can do about it. No one knows if it will be our Sun going Red Dwarf, a super volcano, or the rapture... it all ends.

No one... even the entirety of mankind... gets out of here alive. We are (despite our actions) doomed.

B. Carfree

Okay, I've got to ask for some elaboration on that bit of alchemy. Reduced carbon molecules from iron and most of the solid mass of the crust (that being the part we have accessible) as reduced iron? Do tell.

B. Carfree

I didn't give up on cars as a reasonable means of transportation in an effort to save fuel for future generations. In part, I went to other means of transportation to show others how easy it is to do in hopes that they would stop ruining the environment for our current generation (some thirty-five years ago). It was only later that I learned how reliant our food supply is on fossil-fuel generated fertilizer. On the bright side, we create huge, adipose-laden bodies today so that future generations can be skinny.

Of course, the main reason I travel by bike is that it makes me happy to do so. Everything else is just rationalizing.

Dave Cutter

It's OK with me if you don't like the science. I realize that environmentalism is a religion and I have no desire to ridicule anyone's faith. Study the science... or go with your faith... I am good ether way.

B. Carfree

So, you don't have any references or explanation for your alchemical claims. I didn't expect much from a faith-based poster like yourself.

You seem to have more than a little in common with these folks:



Now go forth and make some gold from iron (without using a linear accelerator; no cheating).

gregjones

That sums it up.

Nothing spiritual, philosophical or moral and no concerns as to who has or how much they pay for gas.

Healthy and Happy.

Roody

The scientific evidence is conclusive that our climate has already been changed by carbon emissions, and the damage is accumulating and accelerating pretty rapidly even as we eat our turkey. So if you don't care about your grandkids' grandkids, at least care about yourself.

Roody

Do you have any citations or links? If not, I'm going to think that you're just pulling our legs, or else you have no understanding of science whatsoever. Its hard for me to understand that iron was somehow transformed into the carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen that make up petroleum. It seems like such a transformation would require fission or fusion, not oxidation (as you claimed).

Machka 

Ah ... the LCF refrain.

Machka 

Nope.


And we don't celebrate thanksgiving here in Australia.

Dave Cutter

Ether your joking... or you read NOTHING... or your one of the environmental religious faithful (which I respect). I am not here to educate you or to convert you from your faith.

Elements 1 through 92 (except for elements 43 and 61) occur naturally on Earth. So.... then you DO completely understand how they are all formed? Your only chemical mystery is where (how is the better word) carbon bonds with gas when it forms into oil? But you completely understand how diamonds utilize carbon... and where it comes from?

You need to update YOUR knowledge base.... or just stick to the faith of Al Gore. But you're mistaken to criticize my understanding.

tandempower

There are people today, just as there always have been, who would have access to better basic survival if fuel/oil was more accessible to businesses that serve their level of affordability. A business that wants to serve the poor can do so better if the price of fuel is cheaper and the price of fuel is cheaper when there's less prospect of selling that fuel to a more lucrative demand base that's willing to pay more for it. Therefore, if everyone conserved maximally, the price would have to go down to levels for, say, some hungry people with incomes of $1/day to ship grains to local distribution centers. What happens instead is that the moment gasoline goes below $3/gallon in the US, half the world goes crazy about losing income while US drivers go crazy that they can bring back the old economy of wasting abundance instead of continuing forward with reforms.

I would really be interested in reading whatever article you read about this. The basic physics is that energy has to get converted from some source to the chemical potential of hydrocarbons. The Earth has two sources of energy, both of which radiate heat at a more or less finite rate: 1) the sun 2) the core. We've always assumed that solar-generated biomass is gradually converting into crude oil due to slow geological processes that aren't too efficient in terms of biomass-calories input to the amount of those calories retained in the resultant crude oil. If core-heat generated biomass is forming crude oil, the question is at what rate and how much of that oil is preserved underground/undersea and how much is burnt up and/or re-consumed by other processes.

Either way, there is logically a rate of consumption possible that would exceed the rate at which these fuels are forming and if we assume conservation is unnecessary, we're likely to exceed that rate considering that humans are quite good at growing as long as they don't restrict their own growth. This is really common sense, if you think about. We're capable of producing more food and eating more than we need so we restrict our dietary intake if we don't want to grow obese and suffer the health problems that come with that. Really, basically everything we consume becomes a hazard when we don't moderate consumption of it. You can argue that the body heals itself but that doesn't mean you can abuse it by consuming every form of food, drugs, and pathogen exposure and not kill it off that way. Health requires balance and our utilization of energy is very far from being in balance.

It's not making God's plans, it's understanding His will. Do you know of any religious scholars or holy people through history who encourage or celebrate gluttony and waste? Everyone eventually comes to understand the relationship between waste and destruction of life. It's a fundamental truth.

In theological terms, this would be like saying, "the wages of sin are death, and we're all sinners and so we're going to die one way or another, so we might as well live it up with sin while we're alive."

Good point about the food excesses being a direct form fossil-fuel waste. I don't think it's rationalizing. I think there is a spiritual benefit to figuring out what actions are ethical and which are harmful and choosing the former over the latter.

Health and happiness are spiritual.

Elements are formed in stars and supernovae. What does that have to do with fossil fuel? Diamonds precipitate out of hot carbon at high pressure; what about that? Really I hope you explain thoroughly the processes that form fossil fuel instead of tossing around implications that you know what you're talking about because your science is supposedly more modern than someone else's. It only makes sense to have a serious scientific discussion about energy and chemistry if we're going to get down to specifics.

Dave Cutter

By WE've... you mean you we're educated in North America? That is NOT the global theory. OPEC and well as the former USSR spend a couple decades of research (in the last century) deciding how much oil can be harvested without depleting the supply. However... this is knowledge they've decided to hold close to their chests. There is no comic book sized explanation... if that is what you're hoping to find. This isn't an understanding that can be mastered with a google search ether. You may just be OOL as far as understanding the big picture.

Yes. And there was a time when primitive man believed in limited energy. Even many otherwise contemporary people still don't understand the limitlessness of energy.

I have always be suspicious of those who say they know God will. I myself... don't.

Do you mean "fossil fuel" as in coal... which is what was taught when I was in school? Or are you using the Al Gore religious re-defined term... which really has no scientific meaning. Coal, Oil, Methane... aren't the same fuels. The catch-all term "fossil fuel" is the equivalent to the religious word "sin". Petro fuels (not coal) however.... are now being found everywhere mankind can get a probe. No life... no signs (yet) of previous life... yet an abundance of petro fuels.

JoeyBike

Perhaps you should ask that question to the remaining indigenous Americans. The original "traditional" Thanksgiving (1621) was made possible by native American generosity towards starving immigrant Europeans. I wonder how they would handle that situation if they could do it all over again. I don't know about "God dying or something", but it appears he/she has taken an extended coffee break since 1621, unless genocide is part of the Divine Plan. Endless gifts to mankind. Please.

Dave Cutter

I am a native American! And my family and I are doing about as well as can be expected. Thank you for thinking of us during this holiday that we are such a big part of. Although... we did bury one of us recently and I know that will have a big impact of the family's celebration. We were fortunately.... unaware of the "genocide" that you posted about.

We actually were pretty darn impressed with the settlers Christian ways... and almost to a person we became Christians ourselves. But the conversion took place generations ago.... I can't take credit. I've lived a long life and am very thankful for having such great health. I've seen many things in my life. Some that have caused me to doubt my faith.... and I have seen things that confirm Gods existence, power, and grace. Before it's all said-and-done... I hope you can say the same.

I hope you enjoy your big meal this harvest season. And... from a modern day indigenous American... may God be with you.

Roody

Sorry, but this makes no sense whatsoever.

If iron is oxidized, the result is rust, not oil.

JoeyBike

"...some colonists later welcomed the high mortality among Indians [from European diseases for which they had no immunity], seeing it as a sign of divine providence..." - LINK

This^^ is certainly a "kinder" way to look at the situation.

I am grateful that you have found happiness in your occupied country and you see no great crime involved for a society that was living a truly sustainable lifestyle. Great fodder for the Car Free forum!

Have a safe holiday season.

Ekdog

Perhaps Mr. Cutter is a disciple of this lady:



Her novels and philosophy seem to be all the rage nowadays amongst a certain crowd of people.

Dave Cutter

JoeyBike and Ekdog... very impressive! Certainly the most anti-Native American post(s) I've ever seen. Your level of racism, and low opinion of an entire culture of people.... is right up there with the most infamous.

JoeyBike

How in the world do you twist racism out of my sorrow for how earth's indigenous peoples have been treated by "civilized" people. From North America to Australia and much of Africa, people minding their own business have had land yanked out from under them without concern for their place in a successful ecosystem. It is happening right now in S. America as the oil companies tendrils are reaching into the last corners of our planet where our original earthly inhabitants are still helpless to defend themselves. Generally, the survivors end up in slums, enslaved, or dead - often from suicide. All on God's watch I might add and happening to the original people he created. The last holdouts of truly sustainable life are nearly gone. They won't even be around to teach us how to do it, not that many care.