I-Like-To-Bike

Really? Who wrote, "If they focused instead on some of the millions of successful carfree people, the message would be that it is practical and enjoyable to give up the carbon breathing beast." What does "Giving up the carbon breathing beast" mean to you?

Only an obtuse daydreamer would believe that the number of people living in households without a car, as found in Census data, is synonymous with or associated with any number of successful car-free people who have given up their "carbon breathing beast", let alone infers that "millions" of such people have done so. Or that these households represent any number of people who are happy about their car-free status and/or wouldn't successfully change that status if their economic circumstances improved.

Nobody said "zero" people have decided to "give up the carbon breathing beast", only you offer that straw man argument. Only you claim that "millions" have done so.

CharlyAlfaRomeo

Of course it is but no one is saying that, saying there are millions of converts in NA is equally absurd and you have actually made that claim.

You constantly make strawman arguments and it's hard to take you seriously.

Yeah that's not really breaking news. It's in the planning stages but the timeline to get the next two lines in, including one out to my area, is something like 27 years though they're looking at the possibility of putting in a dedicated BRT corridor through in the interim.

The problem to me is that by the time that's finished it'll already be woefully inadequate at the current expansion rates this city experiences. Another shortcoming IMO is that all the lines are downtown-centric and there's no rapid link around the perimeter.

gerv 

There aren't millions of people in the US who owned a car and now don't?

Well according to a study from the University of Michigan, some 9% of households in the US are without cars. That's a lot of people. Like many 10s of millions.

source: Vital Signs: More Households Don?t Own a Car - Real Time Economics - WSJ

I-Like-To-Bike

Could be if you start counting people "successful" in their car-free status in nursing homes, hospitals and other institutional care, as well as those who have moved in with other family members since they can no longer physically or financially handle independent living.
What do you think that indicates about the number of people in the US who owned a car and now don't and/or are happy about their changed status?

CharlyAlfaRomeo

There are many high density urban areas in NA where LCF is viable along with many people in high poverty areas who have never had the opportunity to afford a vehicle so of course there are millions of people living car free in NA. That doesn't mean millions of people CONVERTED to LCF.

You're still cherry picking numbers without showing that people converted from being car owners to LCF. In fact the link you provided shows only a .5% change since 2007. Unfortunately the link doesn't say how many households that represents but I'd venture a guess that it's somewhere short of millions.

Roody

A .5% increase in seven years seems pretty high to me, considering there were decreases in previous years.

To talk about people being carfree because of poverty is asinine. I live in a poor neighborhood, and almost everybody owns a car. It's not a new car or a fancy car, but it is a car. As with rich people, the poor people who don't own cars are the ones who are intelligent enough to realize that car ownership is often a bad financial move.

Anyway, this forum exists mainly to provide information and encouragement to people who want to drive less or not at all. These are "volunteers" and "converts". These ae the people you feel don't even exist. Who exactly are you talking to if the people on this forum don't exist?

I wonder about you, with your automotive user name. Do you have any personal interest in being carfree or carlight? I would be very interested in hearing any of your experiences along these lines. Everybody has a right to post here, but I do wonder somtimes why some come here and always say that a carfree lifestyle is only for those who live in New York, or who don't have enough money to buy a car. You might try scrolling through some of the threads here to find out a little more about the many people who are voluntarily and proudly carfree or carlight. You really don't seem to have very much information about the subject! We live in many areas and have many careers and income levels.

Roody

You call me an obtuse daydreamer? That isn't very nice, but it's definitely not the nastiest thing you've called m!

It's just as obtuse for you to infer that these people are unhappy, or want to get a car. I'm going to assume, since (as you often say) it doesn't take much money to own a car, that many of the people who don't own one are indeed happy with that state of affairs. IOW, they are "voluntarily" carfree, they would not change if they had more money, they are proud to be carfree, and they don't care who calls them names.

CharlyAlfaRomeo

It doesn't matter how it seems to you, you keep blathering on about millions of converts without being able to show that there are millions of converts and then making straw man arguments when challenged on it.

So because "almost everyone" in your area owns a car it must be so everywhere else? This is such a lame argument I'm not even going to touch it.

No where have I stated that I don't feel they exist, simply that the converts are not in the millions as you suggest. Reading comprehension, get some.

My user name isn't automotive, it's my initials spelled out in the radio alphabet. "Charly" and "Alfa" had to be spelled the way they are to fit the maximum number of allowed characters. Nice try though.

As as to why I came here, well I saw a thread that had to do with the city I live in. A city in which I was car free for 10 years. A thread to which I, unlike you, actually have information to contribute. A thread you and a couple of others are seriously derailing with your obtuse arguing about subjects that have little to do with the original topic. Why did you come to this discussion?

gerv 

I don't have any statistics on happiness.
However, the statistic I quoted was for households, so guessing that would not cover nursing homes or hospitals. An individual who moved in with a family would be considered carfree only if there were no cars in the driveway. Or am I misunderstanding the notion of "household".

gerv 

There are also many people living in NYC who aren't in high poverty and who don't own a car... largely because a car is an albatross in high density areas. I assume that 9% of the estimated 776,000 households in the US would include quite a few people who once had cars and now don't. I don't know if this adds up to millions or zillions.

It is interesting the 58% of NYC households do not have cars. Hope for the future IMO.

CharlyAlfaRomeo

One of the high density urban areas I was referring to.

Once again your numbers are off and you draw conclusions based on assumptions. I don't know what that 776,000 households represents (there is way too much to sift through on the page you linked) but it's not the total number of households in the U.S.. Plus you're still using 9% which represents the total number of car free households, not converts.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau there are 115,227,000 households in the U.S. with an average of 2.61 persons per household. As your earlier link stated 0.5% of households in the U.S. have converted to car free since 2007 which would represent 576,135 households or 1,503,712 people. So we're close to millions but not quite there for the U.S., since 2007 anyway.

However there are a couple of other factors that should be considered, namely that the further back you go the less households there were so that brings the number down and also I personally wouldn't count people under the legal driving age who have no say in how they get around. Roughly 21% of Americans are under the age of 16 which brings the original number down to 1,187,982.

Adding similar numbers to account for Canada and Mexico to get an overall picture for N.A. based on the percentage shift of the total population (1,187,982 is 0.37% of the U.S. population) gives us 132,000 for Canada (.37% of 35,675,834) and 438,062 for Mexico (.37% of 118,395,054) which added to the total for the U.S. equals 1,758,044 people who may have converted in N.A. based on a 2014 numbers.

Still not millions for the whole continent since 2007 though I'll admit you may get there by going back far enough but based on lower population numbers for previous years, a lower rate of conversion to LCF, likely lower numbers of conversion in Canada and Mexico, and beyond a certain year car usage increasing as opposed to decreasing, your assertion is very far from the absolute truth you seem to propose.

I'd like to think so too but you have to balance out what happens in NY with all the Duck Dynasty wannabes of the world. Cities with that kind of density are few and far between so using them as a litmus test for what is possible anywhere else doesn't work.

I-Like-To-Bike

Your guess is good as mine as to where Roody's Millions of People who converted to successfully car-free status reside.

CharlyAlfaRomeo

See my last post, there aren't any millions and there's no way to argue it now.

I-Like-To-Bike

There never was but that does not prevent anyone from doing just that.

CharlyAlfaRomeo

True and no one around here seems to like facts, or math apparently.

Ekdog

Or spelling?

CharlyAlfaRomeo

My feelings, you hurt them.

gerv 

Yes, you are right, My figures as it turns out are for the number of same-sex households in the US.
Actually your statistics are also more likely to prove my point.

Duck... what's that? Were they after Ming?

CharlyAlfaRomeo

Actually it doesn't look good for you at all if you look at the numbers.

According to this The future of driving: Seeing the back of the car | The Economist car use only plateaued in 2004 and began to decline in 2007 so you're still incorrect.

1.7 million people is likely an overestimation of the number of people converted up until now so no, millions haven't made the change yet. Looks like you should be able to make that claim in the next year or two though.


A little bit after if my sources are correct.

wolfchild

I wonder ??.. Why aren't millions of successful LCF converts coming to this forum to share the secrets of their success ??..Heck it doesn't even have to be millions, make it few thousand. Where are they, what are they doing ??

Machka 

Even a few hundred ... or ... ummm ... even tens.

gerv 

I have a theory about that...

gerv 

Ok... I can live with that. Nice article. Thanks for posting.

Machka 

Yeah ... so do I.

wolfchild

No theories please... Only facts shall be accepted