tandempower

That's exactly the problem. Bikes are wonderfully simple machines that require nowhere near the support infrastructure that cars and car parts do. How big a warehouse is needed to store enough parts to keep 10,000 bikes on the road for centuries? What about 10,000 cars?

It is a problem when a good bike tire costs as much or more as a car tire when the car tire is much larger, heavier, and has steel belts and many more miles of tread. Wheels are the same story. Why do two good bike wheels cost half as much as four car wheels? Why does a decent bike cost almost as much as a scooter or motorcycle and more than a used car?

The answer has to do with the relatively low sales volumes of bikes compared with cars and the simple fact that people want to make bike dealerships and repairs their only business instead of consolidating bicycle sales and repairs with other types of business and work. Of course, if bike shops were consolidated in this way, it might just be a matter of time before the rest of the business received priority over the bike shop because of bringing in more revenue.

Bikes are simply so good, they can operate sustainably without generating much revenue, especially if the own has basic mechanical skills and maintenance sense. So the shop has to either go out of business or figure out a business model and pricing scheme that makes them competitive in a world of businesses that charge lots more money for much less efficient products.

There's just no way for bicycles to win in a market economy unless consumers choose rationality over the profit-from-waste-culture model. If we all cooperated to produce good quality bike parts for the cost of the materials and labor that go into making them, we could all have good quality bikes for cheap BUT the rest of the profiteers would exploit us to pay high prices, rents, taxes, and fees for everything that goes into maintaining the automotive economy.

Drivers complain about paying for bike infrastructure when it should be car-free people complaining about the cost of everything else needed to sustain the popular driving habit.

mapeiboy

You can say that again . That is the reason why I purchased my last complete bike from U.K . I also buy bulk of my bike parts from U.K internet shop .

bconneraz

When I walk into my LBS, and see carbon fiber single speed MTB's for over 9k, or a line of full suspension bikes that range from 7-11k on the floor, I always think to myself that the pricing on new bikes is nuts. Plenty of people here buy them though.

I-Like-To-Bike

If those high priced bikes are the only type offered by your LBS, perhaps you should try walking into another type of bicycle sales establishment.

bconneraz

nah....it's fun to look at them. They sell cheap crap like Surly too; it's where I bought my LHT.

Null66

Check out the brute force approach the million price index...

gerv 

I'd be happy if bikes were a little more expensive and a lot more durable. However, there are some reasonably durable bikes out there... not cheap, but good value for their price. I know a bike tire is smaller and yet can cost as much as a car tire, but that small tire can get me where I need to be, help maintain good health, keep me (somewhat) mentally balanced... I think that's a very small price to pay for the privilege of riding a bike.

gerv 

@bragi, since you started this thread, I'm wondering if you are thinking of trading in your Long Haul Trucker. I bought a Bianchi Volpe new for $850 in 2005. It's still going strong, although with some new components and I don't foresee the need to look for a new bike. I'm sure the Bianchi will be rolling around somewhere in 20 years time too... maybe even holding up my ass.

D1andonlyDman

But they don't. A basic Bike tire costs maybe $12-15 on sale, whereas the cheapest car tires cost maybe $35-40 new. A high performance bike tire might cost $50-80, but high performance auto tires cost several hundred dollars each. And those differences basically represent materials cost differences - the actual manufacturing costs (primarily due to volumes and manufacturing processes) are not that different.

Smallwheels

How many miles can you get from a high performance bicycle tire compared to a high performance car tire? A High performance tire on a car that isn't raced would last twenty-thousand miles. A cheap car tire also lasts thirty-thousand miles. Bicycle things cost more per mile.

jon c. 

You could make a bike tire that lasted 20,000 miles at a low cost, but I don't think anyone would care for the ride quality.

Spld cyclist

To me, $500 buys a "decent" bike and $1,000+ is the lower limit of nice bike territory. Around here, a $1,000 used car may barely run, or at the least has major repair expenses likely in the next year or so. A $500 car is basically just a parts car that won't pass inspection. (Of course there are lucky finds, but I'm talking about the average). From that point of view, a $500 - $1,000 bike is an amazing transportation value.

It is true that bike parts may cost more than car parts on a $/mile basis, but most cyclists just don't ride nearly as many miles as an average car driver. Living car free/car light almost requires that. So if a $50 pair of tires lasts 3,000 miles, most transportation cyclists aren't going to pay more than $50 per year on tires. Say a chain is $15, a cassette $30, brakes pads $10/pair. Maybe a couple cables or tubes. It's going to be hard to spend more than $125/year on wear items. (Granted, 10 or 11-speed drivetrain components wear out faster and cost more, but they're not needed for transportation cycling. And yes, some cyclists put on more miles, but most don't).

tandempower

I agree with you about the value being high, but I don't see the rationality in justifying higher pricing by higher value. Of course, it depends on how you look at economic trade. If you think everything of value should be used as an impetus to get people to work more and contribute more labor to commercial activities, then it would be good to get people to pay more for everything valuable. If you believe that the best things in life are free and that money is a tool for reducing freedom and indenturing people to debt and wage labor, then you focus on increasing the amount of free things and reducing the amount of paid labor people have to do to live.

That's true about the price class comparisons but manufacturing costs due to volume is really just another way to say that the business that sells the tires charges more so they can make more in total sales. Realize that industrial equipment is produced by companies with very high standards of profit. This is not a free market where multiple producers engage in price competition until costs are only marginally lower than revenues. These are coordinated supply chains where each supplier ensures high returns for certain investors and employees. This is not something unique about the bicycle industry. It is standard operating practice in an economy where privilege has become taken for granted.

That's because tire makers and distributors don't want to go out of business after selling everyone the last tire they'll ever need. In a world where people only produce what they would want to use for themselves, and they would do it at the cost they would have to charge themselves, most things would be much better and much more affordable.

Generally, parts for bikes and cars are more expensive than the complexity of the item warrants. Parts suppliers get away with charging high prices because without the part, the vehicle is unusable and the cost of getting a new vehicle far exceeds the cost of replacing the part. In other words, exploitation of dependency. We just don't live in a world where everyone wants to provide the best value at the lowest possible price. We just don't all love each other that much yet.

Yes, generally bikes are easier and cheaper to maintain than more complex vehicles so there tends to be an ethic of "pay a little more for what you get because you don't have to buy that much." That's fine from a normative point of view but ultimately it's not good economic ethics. Imagine if everyone got used to being paid extra for simple, effective things - we'd be paying $1 a glass for water and working 80 hour weeks to afford more costs than we already are taxed with.

Null66

My ~81-82 Traveler was somewhere around $600 new... A DT is a bargain. It's brakes actually work when it rains...



Product substitution is one of the funny things about the new inflation calculations...
Hamburger for steak, then chicken, then soylent green, lastly grass and saw dust...
Some substitutions make sense, say Japanese bikes in the late 70's for French and Italian bikes of the 60's... Similar utility... But sorry, food stuffs should be like for like as is the economic argument...
A 12 oz. "pound" of coffee is not the same utility as a 16 oz. pound of coffee...


See shadow stats on the internet for the various calculation formulas... Interestingly the new calcs, always make now look better than the old way of calculating it...

Roody

I think your estimate of $125/year is pretty close to my own experience (although I don't keep great records). $125 isn't going to get you much at a service station, or even at an auto parts store.

bragi

I gave away my LHT in April, and replaced it with a Disc Trucker. There was no rational reason for doing so, I just wanted a bike with disc brakes. It was pure indulgence. I'm glad I did it, though; if you're not into racing, disc brakes are way better. They don't wear out nearly as fast, they require less maintenance, and their stopping power in wet weather is vastly superior. I could probably keep this bike for the next 20-30 years if I wanted to. I doubt that I will, though....

gerv 

I'm sure someone will be riding your bike, barring an accident, in 20-30 years. Trading in your bike every several years is pretty cost-effective and keeps the used bike market alive too. Resale on touring bikes has been decent so your LHT probably didn't depreciate too much.

Hope you'll enjoy that new Surly!!

wahoonc

Bike maintenance can be as expensive or inexpensive as you allow it to be.

I have a 43 year old Raleigh 3 speed that I paid $25 for back in 1982. I rode it for 7 years at an average of 5,000 miles a year, my brother rode it for 3 more years. I would be willing to wager that it probably has over 50,000 miles on it with minimal maintenance only the replacement of wear out parts, costs were probably under $40 a year, much less since it went into semi-retirement. Only things replaced on that bike were tires, tubes, brake blocks and the occasional chain. All the parts when I was riding it were sourced from the local Ace Hardware store on the corner.

As far as the local filling station... I put $146 worth of diesel in my heavy truck the other day , but that was the first fill up since September.

Aaron

bragi

I do enjoy that new Surly. It's by far the nicest bike I've ever owned, and I really like riding it. Sometimes I feel really self-indulgent for buying it, until I talk to car-centric friends. A really good friend told me the other day that I could get a really good deal on a used Mini, only $10,000 (not including taxes, insurance, tags, and maintenance). I tried not to laugh, but failed.

ironwood

Not at the local dump.

wipekitty

I read somewhere that "cycling is the new golf." (Probably in a magazine at the doctor's office.)

It makes sense, though - I notice that more people are interested in the sport of cycling, and much like golf, those with money are willing to invest in good gear and travel to try different cycling "courses". I am happy to support this, even if their idea of "cycling" is a bit different from mine.

If people from higher income brackets are turning to cycling, it would make sense that bike prices would go up. You've got a larger base of people with more discretionary income to spend on new entry-level bikes, and work up from there. Since they spent more, they'll want more for the used bike when they upgrade.

The older/used bike market, from what I've observed, varies a lot by region. Where I live now, there's a ton of amazing vintage stuff for under $100 - mostly barn finds and students wanting quick cash to get home, buy books, or whatever. My two most recent purchases here ($40 and $60 respectively) would have been over $200 easily in Denver, and not much lower in Madison or the twin cities...

Walter S

They are great bikes. I've been riding a LHDT for a couple years. I love it. It feels so supple and solid going down the road, loaded or not. It does it all. I like keeping bicycles for a long time. It gets less expensive, the longer you own it.

Machka 

+1

We just picked up another bicycle at the local tip shop for $20.

Rowan

And this is where things go off the rail when LCF advocate talk about higher cycling participation and more bikes being sold than cars.

Recreational riding or the "sport of cycling" are vastly different from LCF/LCL ideals. Converting participants in the former to being participants in the latter is still as nebulous as it ever has been.

Doohickie

I think this may be a big part of it. What did the equipment on your 2008 LHT have compared to what they typically come with now? Disc brakes, more gears, etc., all cost more money. This is why I prefer C&V.