Sixty Fiver

Many of the important people in our lives live 100 to 2200 km away and we don't like flying... the bulk of our mileage this past year was to take a trip to Michigan (by car) where we travelled 5000 km which includes side trips. The fuel expense for the return trip was less than one way airfare and the remote nature of our destination would have warranted us renting a car.

When my wife was in Portland I was driving back and forth a great deal but now that she is here the driving is pretty minimal... the main shop is a 110 km round trip so that is a mandatory drive in the winter and a really nice bike ride in the summer if I don't have to carry any bikes / parts.

I always take the most appropriate vehicle, if I don't need the Jeep I drive the car which gets really excellent mileage... we would not own a four wheel drive as a primary vehicle as they use more fuel and do require more attention and regular maintenance and it tends to collect a lot of dust.

Dahon.Steve

It’s amazing how this past week, tens of thousands of Californians filled out the necessary paperwork to apply for a driver license and giving up their carfree life. Over 46 thousand undocumented immigrants can obtain a driver’s license after they pass the required written and drivers test.

It goes to show you how the motoring lifestyle is so programmed into the social conscious of this county that even low income earners “need to drive” to work when they clearly cannot afford it. Once they have their car, public transit or bicycle commuting will not be an “option” as it was in the past. They will become conditioned to drive everywhere and spend most of their discretionary income on motorized transport.


Undocumented Immigrants Apply for Driver?s Licenses in California

Nightshade

"Buy Cars You Can't Afford -- You Will Stay Broke!"

Well, duh! Ya think!

As long as you spend more than you earn you will always be broke!

mustang1

I know someone who, instead of taking 10 minutes to walk to the train station, will drive for 7 minutes, park the car, then walk for 6 minutes to the train station (downhill) so she can save 4 minutes walking time! On the return leg, instead of walking 8 minutes up a hill, she will phone someone up, then wait at the train station for 5 minutes waiting to be picked up, driven to her car, then get in her own car and drive home in 7 minutes. Then she complains its difficult to stay in shape as she doesn't have much time. Weird these humans aren't they.

Kindaslow

Good example of it is not the cars, but the people. In Europe, towns and cities are designed for walking and busses. Cars are used for distance and hauling. Our cities are designed around cars and we have the habit of using them. And, our cars are larger on average. Cars and bikes are just objects, both of which I like. They do not put us into debt or into shape, we do both of those things.

Stucky

Reminds me of my idiot sister, who lives nextdoor to a post office, and yet will get in her car; warm it up, and drive nextdoor to that Post Office! Once, she got a ticket, coming out of the driveway, for not wearing her seatbelt!!!!! People don't realize how much damage they are doing to their cars, too, with such short trips. The cars never get a chance to even get up to full operating temperature; and such useage is actually considered "severe service' and requires more frequent oil changes/maintenance- but such people are almost always the ones who neglect maintenance, because "Hey, I only drive the car 5 minutes a few times a week". I'd sooner buy a vehicle with 240K miles on it, which was driven and well-maintained [I actually did buy such a vehicle, and it now has 300K on it!] than a car with 70K miles on it which spent most of it's life sitting/being used for short trips.(Ironically, most people would pay more for the latter- thinking "low mileage" is a benefit.)

mapeiboy

That mens we are all poor here . We use the money to buy food , shelter , cars , bikes .....

I-Like-To-Bike

Not everybody is like you, and even some undocumented immigrants might find it possible to manage their finances and ownership of a private automobile, whether you can believe it or not. They may even choose to spend their discretionary time and income on something other than riding around on the public transit for entertainment.

Roody

Take away the mean undertone and I agree with you. Poor people certainly have as much ability and right to own cars as anybody else. As you and others have pointed out on other threads, it can be quit cheap to own a car.

Poor people (in many cases) "need" a car more than rich people do. Most job sites are located far from lower income neighborhoods. Poorer people also often have fewer options when it comes to moving closer to work. And housing prices are typically much higher near subway stops and commuter train stations, making transit less accessibl to those with lower incomes.

I wish that people of every income level would own fewer cars and drive a bit less! Even more, I wish that public transit and public roads were better designed for people--rich or poor--who choose not to own a car.

Stucky

In a lot of cases, owning a car [or cars] is keeping people poor- even people with healthy incomes. Car ownership can indeed be quite economical- if one buys older vehicles which are in good shape and which they can pay cash for; not have to carry comp & collision on, etc. But more often than not, [observed among relatives and people I have known or dealt with] I see people financing vehicles which they can not afford [and as a result, living with life-long car payments; and life-long comp & collision].

I personally know someone who is on food stamps, who not only drives late-model financed cars, but also buys cars for their teenaged children [who destroy them in short order, and then are given another one] and even pays their insurance. These people are considered poor, but yet between working and legally getting entitlements, they are essentially making about $60K a year, when all is considered [Salary; tax refund above what was witheld; food stamps; help with heating; medicaid....] -It is REALLY sick!

I also knew a middle class family [At least their predicament isn't being financed by us taxpayers, unlike the ones mentioned above] who make about $70K- but between the two cars they finance (Well over $1500 a month in payments and insurance; plus they live in a state where registrations are absurdly high and there are mandatory inspections] and between that, and having their home in a very expensive area [Property taxes alone are over $10K a year], and even financing luxury improvements to the house, they are living paycheck to paycheck and not saving a dime- and come the day that their income is disrupted, even for one month, it will be their ruin, and they will then be complaining "Oh, woe is me! It wasn't my fault! I'm a victim!".

It seems, the problem is, in all economic strata, that people are simply living beyond their means. Everyone wants as much as they can possibly get right now; no one even gives a thought to saving. People in the projects have big-screen TVs and iPhones and expensive rims and 2000W car stereos and 6 kids; the middle-class have $750K homes and $80K cars, and are in debt up to their eyebrows.

The first family I mentioned above- the food-stamp recipients: They live in a small town, where yes, a car is necessary- but they could easily get by with one car- and it needn't be a late-model one. There's only one person in the household who works; and everything they do on a regular basis, from going to work, to running errands, could easily be done walking or on a bicycle (and would also help them to lose weight). I mean, does the 16 year-old REALLY need to travel an hour each way every day to see his girlfriend?! (In this case, if we would stop subsidizing this behavior,l it would not exist. Without the entitlements, such a family would be forced to live more responsibly; and devote more of their time to sustaining themselves, instead of seeking various forms of entertainment).

Funny thing is: That family actually has a bunch of bicycles- They bought a whole gaggle of Walmart bikes once, with plans of taking enjoyable rides for fun and fitness; rode them once or twice; and never touched them again. (They're all obese; and even the 16 year-old has pre-diabetes and a developing heart problem now!). It really is disgusting! Makes me happy to see so many here who are doing the very opposite.

I-Like-To-Bike

Generalize and stereotype much?

Stucky

Well, when you see such things perpetuated over and over again, many times throughout the decades, you realize that such stereotypes are indeed stereotypical because such behavior is prolific.

And even statistics bear this out. I forget the exact details, but I remember reading that something like 70% of Americans could not come with $1000 cash on the spot if needed to. Savings are at an all-time low; and consumer debt is at an all-time high.

What was that thing not too long ago...something to do with everyone buying houses they couldn't remotely afford; and those who already owned houses refinancing them- in many cases for over 100% of their values....oh yeah....the RE bubble! But I stereotype?

I was actually raised in a very poor situation- but luckily, my family didn't fit most of the stereotypes, and we lived within our modest means- and consequently, i grew up to be responsible and live within my means. I've never been in debt; and although I earn less than $20K a year [by choice] I live very well, while i see many around me who earn substantially more living in "poverty", because poverty is more a mindset than an economic thing; and is dictated more by what you do with what you have, than by how little or much you have.

Believe me, I know whereof I speak. I have actually BEEN to those housing projects (in a former line of work) and have seen thge big-screen TVs and $2K rims and/or stereos, and obese baby-mamas living on $800 a month in pizza and potato chips, instead of cheap nutritious rice and beans and pasta.

Most Americans live in a very segregated world. They don't have the opportunity to see what goes on apart from their own community; and even when they do, it doesn't seem to register- like when they see the see the fat woman on line in the checkout at the supermarket, with a few hundred dollars worth of junk food, paying with food stamps; with a gaggle of kids of various races and ethnicities, and one in the oven... [America: The only time and place in history where "the poor" are not rib-protruding skinny, but obese!]

I knew a guy who volunteered at a soup kitchen. He ended up quitting, because 90% of the people on the line had smart phones.

Dahon.Steve

What would make someone who is currently getting along fine with public transit want to acquire an expense that will in effect become the second largest bill in their household? Especially when they are barely making ends meet?

I was thinking there might very well be a correlation between how many hours one watches television. I truly believe the television is the tool that is programming millions into a life of car dependency. I suggest if one wants to become carfree, you must think about becoming television free. Cutting the cord and watching Youtube or Netflix dramatically reduces your exposure to auto commercials that program your mind into a state of auto dependency.



Personally, I cut the cord many years ago and within six months, the desire to ever own an automobile was gone. I was cured from a life of consumption. This is the best advice I can give anyone.

To be honest, I find that watching 20 minutes of auto commercials (or any commercial) for each hour of programming to be repulsive. It’s the main reason I cannot watch broadcast television.

Stucky

Yeah, I gave up TV over 20 years ago; but I remember the stupid car commercials. I always remember thinking: "How do they sell cars with such stupid commercials?!". I guess it weorks on the brain-dead though. (And I think those who watch the garbage on TV these days have to be brain-dead....)

As someone who has lived under many different scenarios though, including the public transit thing years ago, I can see why cars are a priority for those who have no other option but public transit- 'cause public transit sucks. I guess I even fell into the trap myself, of owning a car when I lived where there as abundant public transit (even though I walked a lot too), and it did indeed consume an inordinate amount of my income (but at least it wasn't financed)...

I think it's largely the culture, too. When you're a teen/young man, you feel like you're not an adult until you can drive and go where you want, when you want- even if you don't "need" to go anywhere at all- we're just brought up to feel that we have not truly "arrived" as adults, unless and until we drive.

It is a shame, too, as so many people these days live in cities and suburbs, where they could easily live without a car; and I'll bet it never even occurs to most of them, the distances they could be capable of covering on a bicycle; because it's likely that the only experience they've had with bikes was that of them being a child's toy that they rode around the block.

Heck, I'm 52, and I've only recently discovered that I can ride 35-50 miles without even thinking about it. I guess most Americans just don't realize that a bike is a viable transportation alternative. But there is slight progress being made in that area, as I know in a few places, like NYC, bikes over the last ferw decades have now become much more popular for commuting.

But could you imagine if all the people who regularly only drive 10 or 15 miles a day, if that, started replacing those drives with cycling? Just that sregment alone doing so would truly change our landscape for the better.

Roody

No, you do not know whereof you speak. Poverty is not a mindset. It's a lack of money.

Stucky

BS. They say that the average family receiving entitlements getting c. $60K a year in various benefits. Yet they still live and act like paupers, because of THE CHOICES THEY MAKE. I was raised in "poverty"; I know; I've seen it first-hand in my own family and in those around us. They always complain about not having enough money; but that is NOT the problem.

Just notice the items in the carts of those in the supermarket who pay withn food stamps. 'Nuff said! It'll invariably be all junk/convenience foods. Why are the "poor" in America almost always obese?

I have a relative who has been receiving welfare/entitlements most of her life. A few years back, she came into $100K over a short period of time. She blew ALL of that money within a year, and has not a thing to show for it. (Meanwhile, I've never had thaty kind of money; but I did save up a little by living modestly and working, and parlayed it into a nice paid-for home- while the stupid relative continues to live in a taxpayer subsidized apartment in which she only has to pay $50 a month for rent!)

And it's inter-generational! Same lasdy, her idiot now-middle-aged son who has three kids, also came into some money. Used it to buy a nice car. Meanwhile he has never owned a home and can not support his offspring.

If poverty were merely lack of money, then I would be impoverished, as I have mentioned, I earn less than $20K a year, and do not take any entitlements- but instead, I am debt-free; my modest home on a nice piece of acreage is paid for; I have a nice wad of savings; a pool; nice bikes; equipment with which to take care of my land; etc. Why? Because I simply live within my means; I don't buy late-model cars; I take care of what I have; don't blow my money on foolish things; Moved away from the very expensive metropolitan area where I grew-up; I don't eat any junk food/convernience foods; never eat out; etc.

Meanwhile, some of my "poor" relatives, who, between working and/or entitlements, have incomes far greater than mine, do such fooliush things as buying financed jewelry and electronics.

Sorry dude, but I've been seeing this stuff all of my life. People from third-world countries come here, and don't speak English or have a driver's license- and yet they manage to find work- even in placers with little or no public transit (Many of them ride bikes!)- and they support themselves and even send money back to their families in their country- and measnwhile we have millions of lazy fat Americans sitting on couches in filthy subsidized apartments, popping out babies, and moaning about how poor they are, and that they can never seem to find a job. (But they all seem to have smart phones; cable TV; internet access; expensive video game systems; and the expensive habit of smoking).

No matter how much money you give these people, they will always be poor, because they make foolish choices; will choose instant gratification over sensible economic decisions; and do not take care of what they have (You'd think the homes of those who don't work would be immaculate, what with them having plenty of time to clean; and ditto cooking- but of course, reality is just the opposite. When I was ina business in which I had to often deal with people in the projects and "the 'hood", their homes were always filthy; and they were always eating fast food/TV dinners/pizza, as they sat there watching Oprah in the middle of the day, because they think it beneath them to mow a lawn or wash dishes or do laundry.

I-Like-To-Bike

Ah, that is how you have figured out that everyone who doesn't think or act just like you is "brain-dead."
Got it.

wolfchild

A persons state of mind is what determines if they spend their life in poverty or wealth. Haven't you ever read Napoleon Hill's book "Think and grow rich'" ??

Roody

The debate about what causes poverty will not (and should not) be settled on this forum. Conservatives believe that it's a character flaw, liberals believe the flaw is in our economic system. It's a very basic point of divergence, and we will never agree or convince others. I think it's a good idea to return more to the original topic of the thread and of the forum. So far there are no winners or losers, and nobody has said anything absurdly extreme.

Getting back to the OP point...maybe (?) we can agree that for many people--of any economic class--a wise financial move is to limit car ownership and driving to a minimum. And maybe (??) many, both conservatives and liberals, agree that it's good policy to invest in public transit and infrastructure for bikes and walking.

Zedoo

Since this is a money management thread, the nature of money is worth discussing. It's a trap. Learning how to live with less money and finally without money is an escape strategy. Carfree is on the path to moneyfree.

I-Like-To-Bike

Job free is also a path to money free.

Death is a way to be free of all those unholy possessions like TVs, cars and money.

We will all be "free at last" at some point, eh?

350htrr

Living moneyfree... Not in this civilisation... At least I wouldn't call it living, existing, is more like it.

wolfchild

gerv 

Death would also spare us having to read more posts on this undead thread.

bragi

Cars were always a dilemma for me: If you go big, they will ruin you. If you buy an inexpensive used car, and rarely use it, the total monthly expense will be relatively small, but even then, the per-use expense seems kind of silly. (When I had my last car, insurance alone cost me about $35-45 per car trip.) On the the other hand, there are times when it's pretty nice to have transportation options. I solved my problem with math. A bike, car share and a transit pass are far less expensive and at times more convenient than buying, insuring, fueling, and maintaining a car, never mind the added stupidity of financing. And not having a car frees up enough money to live comfortably in an area where a car isn't necessary.