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This is how you sell riding the bus.

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This is how you sell riding the bus.

Old 02-09-15, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower


Suburbs are not permanently unbikeable and inconvenient to transit use. There just needs to be transit lines and bike paths/lanes available so that people have the option of leaving the car parked instead of sitting in motor-congestion when growth begins to push the limits of automotive infrastructure in the area.
Funny, during the earlier and much larger bike boom of the '60s-'70s, most cycling took place in those supposedly "unbikeable" suburbs. Even our resident curmudgeon cat likely rode many a mile through those "unbikeable" suburbs around Philly. Surprisingly enough, we did it without bike lanes or bike paths.
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Old 02-09-15, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ekdog
The Danes know how to get people out of their cars and onto buses.


I thought this was pretty funny, and sent it to a few of my more devoutly car-centric friends, the ones who equate bus-riding with dire poverty and/or granola. Upon viewing, they claimed they didn't get it.
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Old 02-09-15, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bragi
I thought this was pretty funny, and sent it to a few of my more devoutly car-centric friends, the ones who equate bus-riding with dire poverty and/or granola. Upon viewing, they claimed they didn't get it.
I'm not the least bit surprised.
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Old 02-09-15, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree
Funny, during the earlier and much larger bike boom of the '60s-'70s, most cycling took place in those supposedly "unbikeable" suburbs. Even our resident curmudgeon cat likely rode many a mile through those "unbikeable" suburbs around Philly. Surprisingly enough, we did it without bike lanes or bike paths.
There were roughly half as many cars then. Do you think a doubling of the cars could make a difference in the bikability of the suburbs?

Do you think most people today (not bikeforums denizens) feel safe or comfortable cycling for transportation in these suburbs?

Even back in 1973, do you think very many people felt comfortable riding on those streets, other than young, fit, and arguably foolhardy followers of the bike boom? Keep in mind, we were all like 18 back then! Now we're going into our 60s. How long will we feel good about riding on the multi-lane highways of the suburbs?

Give us bike lanes and bike paths!
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Old 02-09-15, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
Public transit is a hard sell for people who have other options. It is a fact that majority of bus users here in the suburbs do so because of financial reasons, they simply can't afford a car or they own a car but are trying to save money on gas and maintenance so they take a bus. . . .
I might have agreed with that once. But now I would say it's a hard sell mostly because people have become desensitized to the downsides of driving, but not to the downsides of transit. It's a rare thing for me to ride in a car, so I too forget about them. A couple of weeks ago a friend bought a car, and we spent a Sunday afternoon on a shopping trip to several of the local Asian grocery stores with him. Normally I'd go there on the bus or my bike. Driving there turned out to be an awful experience, and I'm not even sure it was faster. We spent an absurd amount of time creeping through crowded parking lots at a snail's pace, and several cars nearly backed into us. Then there were all the places where cars could turn only one direction and we had to make u-turns to get going the right way. And the backed-up freeway ramps. It suddenly became clear to me why most of the drivers I see look angry.
The bus does have some annoyances too, but overall it is far more pleasant than a trip by car. And I do love going by light rail or commuter rail when I can.
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Old 02-09-15, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mconlonx
Awesome. But since the 70s I've been lamenting the plush of euro buses vs. the utilitarian fare we have here in the US. If USA public transit was as swank, perhaps we'd have more riders... but then again, perhaps we'd have more vandalism...
Some of the suburban transit agencies here (San Francisco Bay Area) do have plush buses like that. They even come with free wi-fi.
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Old 02-10-15, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
The same thing with streetcars in downtown Toronto which are very old and past their useful service life and just can't hold up to very cold temperatures anymore.
Actually, they've been running pretty well this winter. Sometimes they are held up by cars struggling with the weather conditions.

EDIT: actually, you're right, they pulled some off the streets on the coldest days. However I ride a streetcar once or twice a week depending on which route I choose and they were always running when I opted for them.

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Old 02-10-15, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree
Funny, during the earlier and much larger bike boom of the '60s-'70s, most cycling took place in those supposedly "unbikeable" suburbs. Even our resident curmudgeon cat likely rode many a mile through those "unbikeable" suburbs around Philly. Surprisingly enough, we did it without bike lanes or bike paths.
I spent the early 60's riding IN Philadelphia, not the suburbs. The mid and late 60's were spent w/o bicycling in college and in the Army. The early and mid 70 's were spent cycling in the city of Philadelphia and trips to my sister's home in the suburbs. The mid and late 70's were spent cycling in rural Illinois and Oregon. No bike lanes anywhere, though the bike path along the Schulykill River in Philadelphia was very useful for both my commuting and recreational cycling in the 70's. There were hardly any joggers back then and I had the path to myself on weekdays.
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Old 02-10-15, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree
Funny, during the earlier and much larger bike boom of the '60s-'70s, most cycling took place in those supposedly "unbikeable" suburbs. Even our resident curmudgeon cat likely rode many a mile through those "unbikeable" suburbs around Philly. Surprisingly enough, we did it without bike lanes or bike paths.
+1

I had been cycling for 18 years before I encountered my first bike path ... that was a short, rather pointless path in Winnipeg which I rarely used. And it was another 13 years (including 5-6 years being car free and a whole lot of cycling) before I encountered my first bike lane ... that was in Canberra.
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Old 02-10-15, 05:04 PM
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Back in the day we never rode on bike paths (cause there weren't any), but now that we've got them we ride on them every day, happily segregated from cars.
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Old 02-11-15, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Roody
There were roughly half as many cars then. Do you think a doubling of the cars could make a difference in the bikability of the suburbs?

Do you think most people today (not bikeforums denizens) feel safe or comfortable cycling for transportation in these suburbs?

Even back in 1973, do you think very many people felt comfortable riding on those streets, other than young, fit, and arguably foolhardy followers of the bike boom? Keep in mind, we were all like 18 back then! Now we're going into our 60s. How long will we feel good about riding on the multi-lane highways of the suburbs?

Give us bike lanes and bike paths!
True, we are an ageing population. However, oddly enough, the fastest growing demographic on bikes is...people in their fifties and sixties. I suppose they're the same ones who were riding forty and fifty years ago, but my experience with them on the road is they aren't terrified at the prospect of sharing the road with motorists. I'm sure most of them pick their roads with some care, but then so do motorists.

As far as those multi-lane expressways: those weren't built in the west, other than in SoCal, until the late seventies and later. Our DOT's were busy building freeways in the '60s and '70s, not freeway-like surface streets. One nice thing about them is they do two things: they calm the parallel streets and they often have decent shoulders (if one is inclined to ride in such a noisy, smelly place).

Where bike-specific infrastructure is well done and not merely a way to get cyclists out of the way, I'm all for it. Unfortunately, very little is well done. Give me quality road standards and follow them!
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Old 02-11-15, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree
True, we are an ageing population. However, oddly enough, the fastest growing demographic on bikes is...people in their fifties and sixties. I suppose they're the same ones who were riding forty and fifty years ago, but my experience with them on the road is they aren't terrified at the prospect of sharing the road with motorists. I'm sure most of them pick their roads with some care, but then so do motorists.

As far as those multi-lane expressways: those weren't built in the west, other than in SoCal, until the late seventies and later. Our DOT's were busy building freeways in the '60s and '70s, not freeway-like surface streets. One nice thing about them is they do two things: they calm the parallel streets and they often have decent shoulders (if one is inclined to ride in such a noisy, smelly place).

Where bike-specific infrastructure is well done and not merely a way to get cyclists out of the way, I'm all for it. Unfortunately, very little is well done. Give me quality road standards and follow them!
+1

Absolutely!!
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Old 02-11-15, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree
Unfortunately, very little [bike-specific infrastructure] is well done.
That may well be true in the States, but there is some excellent cycling infrastructure here in Europe. I don't think the answer for Americans is just to give in. You have to demand that things be done right if you ever want to see massive numbers of people cycling.

Last edited by Ekdog; 02-11-15 at 02:12 AM.
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Old 02-11-15, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Walter S
I ride the bus regularly, and frequently read or catch up on email while doing it. I'm not sure I'd say I'm in "the suburbs" exactly. I don't see how that would matter. I also don't do it for "fun and entertainment". I'm one of those weirdos that use public transportation for transportation.

edit: I'm a software architect and could easily afford to own cars.
Same here (well, I'm not a software architect but still...) It's not an either/or question where I live. Even if I had a car, I wouldn't use it for commuting. Compared to bus, a bus pass costs about 4 euros per each working day. I'd pay roughly that much for the gas alone, and I'd spend more time commuting than by bus. And parking the car anywhere near the office... good luck with that.

Originally Posted by Ekdog
That may well be true in the States, but there is some excellent cycling infrastructure here in Europe.
This. If you build cycling infrastructure, it must be well planned, built and maintained. It's a long term effort and requires political commitment.

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Old 02-11-15, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Juha
If you build cycling infrastructure, it must be well planned, built and maintained. It's a long term effort and requires political commitment
A new bike lane is being built here at the moment, and some of the members of our cycling coalition have been out taking photographs that make it clear that the construction company is cutting corners, so we've been putting the heat on the politicians, insisting that the work be done properly. We have to be on top of them all the time if we want something decent. You can't just throw up your hands and say, "Oh, well, if they can't do this right, we'll just have to give in and carry on riding in the streets with high-speed traffic." With that kind of attitude, you'll never get past a two or three percent modal share, very few women will get on a bike and no one will dare let their children cycle to school or anywhere else.
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Old 02-11-15, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Machka
I had been cycling for 18 years before I encountered my first bike path ... that was a short, rather pointless path in Winnipeg which I rarely used. And it was another 13 years (including 5-6 years being car free and a whole lot of cycling) before I encountered my first bike lane ... that was in Canberra.
The first bike path I encountered was as a teen, it was a long path along the Pacific Ocean in Los Angeles. The first bike lane I can remember was when I was a student at UC Santa Barbara.
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Originally Posted by Bjforrestal
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Old 02-12-15, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Artkansas
The first bike path I encountered was as a teen, it was a long path along the Pacific Ocean in Los Angeles. The first bike lane I can remember was when I was a student at UC Santa Barbara.
They just didn't have anything like that where I lived.

And yet, I've managed to cycle 150,000+ km without.
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Old 02-12-15, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Machka
They just didn't have anything like that where I lived.

And yet, I've managed to cycle 150,000+ km without.
Good for you, but most people are not willing to let their children share the road with speeding 3,000-lb. vehicles.
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Old 02-12-15, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Machka
They just didn't have anything like that where I lived.

And yet, I've managed to cycle 150,000+ km without.
Neither did I when I was a kid. I was riding along the most heavily trafficked road on my side of the state daily from 2nd grade on, and pedaling far enough that this past year, my Dad was surprised when I told him where I rode as a kid.

When I discovered the beach bike path. I considered the bike path on the weekends to be very dangerous, more so than the city streets.
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Originally Posted by Bjforrestal
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Old 02-12-15, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Artkansas
Neither did I when I was a kid. I was riding along the most heavily trafficked road on my side of the state daily from 2nd grade on, and pedaling far enough that my Dad was surprised when I told him where I rode as a kid, this past year.

When I discovered the beach bike path. I considered the bike path to be very dangerous, more so than the city streets.
I did quite a bit of cycling as a kid, with and without my parents. When I was really young, I rode on the sidewalk, but as I grew older my parents taught me how to ride on the road ... rules of the road, tips and tricks, and all that. Both parents cycled, and we would go out as a family. But they didn't mind if I set out on my own too.

My school also had a bicycle program, and I've still got the instruction manual. Again, we were taught the rules of the road (the bicycle instruction manual was based off the drivers education/highway act information) as well as some tips and tricks for bicycle handling.

But those 150,000 km I referred to were as an adult. I didn't encounter my first bicycle paths and lanes until I was well into adulthood and had been cycling for years. In fact, I had been a member of bicycle forums, and had seen people talking about bicycle lanes for a few years before I saw my first one. And I recall that my first reaction to it was "Oh how cute! A lane for bicycles!"

And yes, that short, pointless bicycle path I referred to ... one of the reasons I rarely rode it was because I considered it more dangerous than the road that ran along side it. The road was wide and fairly quiet with a reasonably low speed limit. They also closed sections of that road to motorised traffic on Sundays ... only non-motorised traffic allowed. But the path twisted and turned between tall bushes and trees, and thus had several blind curves ... you couldn't ride more than about 10 km/h for fear of coming around one of those blind curves and hitting people. And of course there were pedestrians, dog walkers, children running to and fro, groups of little old ladies standing just around those blind corners bird watching, rollerbladers, and all sorts out there. I could cycle the road at a decent pace without a single negative encounter with motorised vehicles ... or I could try to negotiate the obstacle course that was the bicycle path.
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Old 02-12-15, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Ekdog
The Danes know how to get people out of their cars and onto buses.


Good one!

I've always said that public transit needs to be sold in a positive manner. Someone posted a while back that if you put a garbage can in the street and ask people to deposit their bottles, it fills up twice as fast if the container had lights and sound for positive reinforcement.

Today's buses should offer more for their passengers like free wifi, discount coupons, free transfers on weekends, gas coupons if you buy a monthly bus pass. There's just no imagination to make it a better experience.
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Old 02-12-15, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
Today's buses should offer more for their passengers like free wifi, discount coupons, free transfers on weekends, gas coupons if you buy a monthly bus pass. There's just no imagination to make it a better experience.
I'd just be happy with a couple extra buses in the morning on my route.

I don't need a whole lot of fluff ... I need substance. And buses running 40 minutes apart isn't particularly substantial.
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Old 02-12-15, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
Good one!

I've always said that public transit needs to be sold in a positive manner. Someone posted a while back that if you put a garbage can in the street and ask people to deposit their bottles, it fills up twice as fast if the container had lights and sound for positive reinforcement.

Today's buses should offer more for their passengers like free wifi, discount coupons, free transfers on weekends, gas coupons if you buy a monthly bus pass. There's just no imagination to make it a better experience.
I agree, especially with the free wifi. The service needs to be improved, but then it has to be promoted. Just think if Madison Avenue were put to work marketing trains and buses the way they do cars. They'd be packed to the gills.
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Old 02-13-15, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Ekdog
That may well be true in the States, but there is some excellent cycling infrastructure here in Europe. I don't think the answer for Americans is just to give in. You have to demand that things be done right if you ever want to see massive numbers of people cycling.
There's a populism culture right now in the US that is threatening cycling growth by pretending to support it via petitions, fundraising, etc. What they do is, instead of insisting on bike infrastructure as a fundamental need, they promote the idea that if enough people show enough support (via signatures, money contributions, etc.), then (and only then) will action be taken to expand the infrastructure. What this does is, by default, give power to those who fail to support cycling by counting their silence as it fails to contribute to the number of signatures or monetary contributions for these campaigns.

What is needed is an appeal to the constitutional spirit of the US. not popular sovereignty. Only once we accept that automotivism has impaired the freedom to use other modes of transportation will the ethic of freedom be invoked to require bike lanes on all roads, bike paths through motor-free areas, etc. Until then, automotivism is trying to be the default totalitarian culture by insisting that people are indeed free to choose other modes but they just don't want to.

The only reason people don't want to is because they've become conditioned to accept they only have one choice. As one friend told me, "driving is just something you do. It's not optional." I believe this is how most US residents view driving and why they view car-free reforms as futile. It's totalitarianism at the level of individual minds despite freedom and democracy at the level of governmental ideology.

Last edited by tandempower; 02-13-15 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 02-14-15, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
There's a populism culture right now in the US that is threatening cycling growth by pretending to support it via petitions, fundraising, etc. What they do is, instead of insisting on bike infrastructure as a fundamental need, they promote the idea that if enough people show enough support (via signatures, money contributions, etc.), then (and only then) will action be taken to expand the infrastructure. What this does is, by default, give power to those who fail to support cycling by counting their silence as it fails to contribute to the number of signatures or monetary contributions for these campaigns.

What is needed is an appeal to the constitutional spirit of the US. not popular sovereignty. Only once we accept that automotivism has impaired the freedom to use other modes of transportation will the ethic of freedom be invoked to require bike lanes on all roads, bike paths through motor-free areas, etc. Until then, automotivism is trying to be the default totalitarian culture by insisting that people are indeed free to choose other modes but they just don't want to.

The only reason people don't want to is because they've become conditioned to accept they only have one choice. As one friend told me, "driving is just something you do. It's not optional." I believe this is how most US residents view driving and why they view car-free reforms as futile. It's totalitarianism at the level of individual minds despite freedom and democracy at the level of governmental ideology.
You're saying that people who are trying to get more infrastructure are actually against cycling? And using democratic processes to accomplish change is actually counter-change?
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