I-Like-To-Bike

Interesting article about the old and new trolleys in Detroit as well as some of the history of same. A favorite non automotive subject for some of our comrades.

Sorry, includes no discussion of dark conspiracies of GM, Firestone and Big Oil to remove the trolley lines, past or present.

See the second article in:
March 2015 Trolleyville Times

TransitBiker

We had an interurban line run right through the middle of town down 413 to bristol back in the day. Boy that'd be useful to have now. Was called "the newtown electric railway". I know it ran to bristol, but i think the other end went up towards new hope or something...... gotta look into that.

All the plowing and wintery weather has exposed some of the rail that has been ground down by numerous street repaving projects. I plan to take some photos of it this week before they patch it or cut it out entirely.

- Andy

TransitBiker

Seems it went up 413 all the way to doylestown, however i am unsure of the terminal area up that way.

- Andy

Jim from Boston

Thanks for that interesting reference. See also:

I-Like-To-Bike

Picture of the PTC (now SEPTA) 52 Trolley a ½ block from my home back in the day in Philadelphia. My friends and I used to place pennies on the tracks to get squashed coins. Once took a spill with my bike, loaded with newspapers in the front basket on the tracks of this line very near where this picture was taken.

ro-monster

We still have those very cars here in San Francisco on the F line. All the trolleys on that route are restored historic cars from various cities and each has a little plaque explaining its history. It's fun to ride them.

I-Like-To-Bike

Yes, Philadelphia almost gave away many trolleys with many years of service life still in them to SF at $10,000 apiece; SF's gain, Philadelphia loss.

Artkansas 

Yes, I've taken many trips on the MTS cars. It's the only way to visit Tijuana.



The one on the left looks like the Little Rock trolley. It's for tourists rather than locals, so the old-timey look is appropriate. They are fun to ride even if trolley tracks are not bicycle-friendly..

wolfchild

Toronto has the longest active street car routes in North America.

Dahon.Steve

Detroit is looking for any idea to bring back the city of old. They can't afford to provide street lights and police but they are spending for a lavish street car! I can't blame them because they seen what streetcars did for other cities in terms of revitalizing their urban core.

I hope for Detroit, it works out for them.

Roody

Good information; thanks for posting.

A couple random thoughts:

1. I've seen local reports about negative reactions to the streetcars. Local people want the citywide bus service ixed before stretcars in the downtown area roe developed. Streetcars will serve downtown workers (many of them from the suburbs) and prestige needs while still leaving locals in the transit lurch.
3. Part of the problem with planning for Detroit transit needs is that the city is thinly populated. Even before depopulation, the residential density was very low.
5. Many people don't know that downtown Detroit already has a prestige transit system. This is the PeopleMover monorail system, which has never really lived up to it's promise.

Dahon.Steve

I've read a number of the complaints.

However, the only part of town that can afford to build it is downtown. If you're looking for urban revitalization, lightrail will do the job. It's unfortunate the buses have to be sacrificed but they are looking long term. Once the downtown district becomes populated and wealthy, the city will be able to subsidize more bus service. Even then, bus service will never return to what it was 50 years ago.

Arizona Nights

I don't know if you're only referring to Detroit, but I would agree with that for Tucson. I rode our new trolly and it's just a bus on tracks. Except that when there's a car parked blocking the track, a car wreck, a bike stuck in the tracks, or a street fair, the trolly can't go around it. A bus can do that. So I really fail to see the advantage. Also, this thing cost $200 million for four miles. Two of those miles are from the University to Downtown which anyone on a bike can do in ten minutes or less. The other two are out to the middle of nothing where nobody goes. Maybe if it had gone from Downtown to say -- oh -- the airport, or the far suburbs, then maybe it wouldn't have been such a fiasco. As one biking friend said, it's just a boob job for the city.

$200m could pave a lot of roads that are in sore need of paving. Or better, it could have finished The Loop bike path.

I'm not finished ranting, but I'll leave it there.

I-Like-To-Bike

Can you provide a couple of U.S. examples of urban revitalization where the downtown district became populated and wealthy thanks to light rail?

Roody

I can't think of any. Maybe Arlington, VA?

Downtown Detroit is already populated and wealthy, so that will never be an example.

I think light rail creates prosperous areas outside the downtown area, such as wealthy or middle-class infill development within 1/2 mile of the subway stops. This would be great for Detroit. However, the CW is that a city needs a million people to sustain a subway system, and Detroit is far short of that.

I-Like-To-Bike

Possibly in some areas; more likely new/expanded light rail services are being proposed/built to service already existing wealthy or middle-class development outside the downtown area with the expectation of more of the same.

I-Like-To-Bike

See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...3ef_story.html and
A Streetcar Setback in D.C. Suburbs | The Container

I-Like-To-Bike

More on bus-streetcar comparison:
Human Transit: streetcars: an inconvenient truth

Roody

Interesting article that points out that some perceived advantages of streetcars are illusory. For example, swapping out buses for streetcars does NOT increase capacity.

Another article that goes much further on the social issues of public transit:

America?s transportation system discriminates against minorities and poor: Federal funding for roads, buses, and mass transit still segregates Americans.

I think the time has come to reevaluate buses. In some ways they seem to be the main future of transit.

(BTW, It would have been nice to have some of this stuff posted in the busphobia thread!)

greengiant43

Long term costs favor rail transit. That and I think the ship has sailed on buses. They will be seen by the majority as something poor people take. Just the way it is.

As a resident of a city where a streetcar is being built, I can attest to the development it brings too. Whereas bus routes can, and often do, change over time, a rail is fixed and therefore lets businesses invest in the long term future. But, that said, I think all things need to work together really. Multimodal is where it's really at- streetcars to circulate, light rail for longer distances, buses to act as additional spokes, bikes and bike services to complement.

Ekdog

It'd be interesting to know what city you live in. Of course if you'd rather not say, I understand.

How sad that there's so much hatred of poor people in the United States! I haven't lived there for over a quarter of a century, so I don't exactly have my finger on the pulse of what's going on over there, but to refuse to share a space with another human being simply because she earns less money than you! That's like hating someone because he has a different skin color. It really is that low and that ignorant, but I don't doubt it's true because in this very forum I've seen many posts that confirm it, although there are more progressive parts of the States, like New York, Boston or San Francisco, where I'm sure you see less of this appalling nescience.

I agree with you about multimodality. That's definitely the way to go. Give me a Brompton and a transit pass and I'll go anywhere.

wolfchild

Commuting daily with rail transit isn't cheap. Here in my area we will soon be getting a rail transit route between airport and downtown, and it's going to be very expensive. A 15 minute one way trip from international airport terminal in the suburbs into downtown Toronto transit terminal will cost $27 dollars...Now just imagine somebody doing that twice per day going to and from work. It would add up to $54 dollars per day just to travel between work and home. So for example: a person who lives downtown and works at the airport 5 days per week would spend $270 dollars per week on public transit....Definitely not for somebody that is poor, you better be making some good money if you going to be using this thing often.

Ekdog

That's outrageous! It sounds to me like somebody wants the project to fail.

wolfchild

Well, it's too early to tell if it's a fail or not. They hoping that it will attract wealthy tourists and business people and international travelers who want to get from airport to downtown in a fastest possible way without having to fight their way through the gridlock...15 minutes is pretty fast, a lot faster and a lot less stressful then taxi, bus or car, but I still think it's way too expensive for the average working folks.

Dahon.Steve

A bicycle is always going to be faster than a city bus or street car. However, for those that cannot or will not use a bicycle for transportation, the streetcar is an alternative to a car. The city could have used the 200m to fix the roads but that's an added expense. Cities all over the country are looking for ways to increase revenue (taxes and jobs) and the Tucson streetcar did just that. You can't create long term jobs filling potholes.

Sun Link - The Tucson Streetcar

>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Sun Link project has already triggered transit oriented development - new retail, office and residential development and redevelopment along the streetcar corridor. To date, more than $800 million has been invested by the private sector. Fifty new restaurants, bars and cafes, some 1500 new student housing apartments plus 58 new retail businesses have popped up along the route over the past two years, and there are mixed-use housing developments in the works. Additionally, there has been significant corporate business expansion within the Sun Link route: a new headquarters for UniSource Energy, with +400 plus employees, and Providence Service Corporation, both publicly traded companies.