RR3

There's some interesting data here....page 34 from the FASTER study most interests me.

www.sportsnutritionsociety.org/ArchivePDFS/ArchivePDFS-314.pdf

RR3

I did 128 miles and 7,000 feet of climbing in around 8 hours yesterday on a total of one bagel, half a gel, one chocolate milk, and one bottle with 300 calories of maltodextrin and some branched chain amino acids. That was all I ate all day from the time I got up until dinner. I am no longer in ketosis but it seems that the ability to burn fat has not been lost.

N = 1

Carbonfiberboy 

The science community would beg to differ with you:
A review of issues of dietary protein intake in humans. - PubMed - NCBI

For those who don't get kJ, we only get about 25% of the calories we eat, so that's a ~3000 calorie/day diet.
What does 8,700 kilojoules look like? - Catherine Saxelby's Foodwatch

Too many calories aren't good for you. An unbalanced diet isn't good for you. Be that as it may, a liquid diet of 70/20/10 with respect to carbohydrates, proteins, and fats will sure as heck get you up the road, the 70% carbs being all refined carbs. And be that as it may, many folks have subsisted for years on a liquid diet with the carbs of course all refined. It's the calories.

pdlamb

CFB, I think you're confusing a riding an entire brevet and riding the distance between brevet controls.

Carbonfiberboy 

You might compare that FASTER study, apparently done by the Atkins Foundation, to this peer-reviewed study:
https://www.colorado.edu/intphys/Clas...ns/Lambert.pdf
which found no difference in muscle power between the groups. And to this one:
https://jap.physiology.org/content/jap/56/4/831.full.pdf

Of course it's possible to trade studies all day. However I think that your N=1 study is what most folks find to be true. Ride enough and your body will maximize its substrate utilization according to the type of riding you do, all by itself. That makes evolutionary sense. No need for dietary interventions to accomplish it, other than eating more than the recommended minimums of the various macro and micro nutrients and not eating too much. That latter is the only dietary rub IMO. The "type of riding you do" is of course the income source of a thousand coaches.

RR3

No difference at 90% VO2 Max between the high carb and LCHF group was one conclusion of the study. The study also concluded greater endurance at 60% VO2 max for the high fat group compared to the high carb group, which I believe supports what I have observed with my own diet and performance on long rides. Honestly, how could I have ridden the first 447 KM of PBP in around 15 hours having no more than about 1500 calories and my output was significantly higher than 60% of VO2 max. (I carried enough to get me to Villaine at 221 KM but I did not buy food until Loudeac). I actually bonked BUT when in nutritional ketosis, the brain does not care-your power out is lowered but you don't feel lousy.

I am not sure I agree with you that riding alone is sufficient to get the same level of fat burning ability. I dunno.

9606

CFB - the Colorado study doesn't pour much cold water on the LCHF diet.
In skimming the CO study it seemed to indicate some benefits.

Carbonfiberboy 

OTOH, for sure how you train on the bike makes a difference. Lance and the Radio Shack team were famous for doing long rides with only water in their bottles. Lance would go out for up to 6 hours with only water. I think most serious riders do their endurance rides while eating as little as possible. That's what we were doing on our 2.5 hour ride - but that's all we could do. We were plenty tired at the end and I'm so sore I can hardly walk today. It's going to take a while to get it back.

RR3

I agree with you CFB that long rides are essential to the development of fat burning capabilities.

Unfortunately, the existing studies are not really focused on what we call long distances.

I dunno if LCHF diets in conjunction with high volume results in more glycogen sparing effects compared to a high carb diet and similar high volume training. I have looked. I can't find good studies.

I will say this....there is no substitute for time in the saddle; however, long steady rides on a high fat diet seemed to have turned a switch on for me. YMMV. I can keep a moderately high output for a really long time, much better than when I was a sugar burner.

Carbonfiberboy 

And polarized training with long steady rides on little food turned a switch for both my wife and I. This past summer we were easily dropping tandem teams who used to easily drop us. People were refusing to ride with us! My fault for being me. I'm trying to be a nicer person this winter and set a better example. I'm putting together a group ride series with good VT1 tandem routes. We'll do the VT2 work on our rollers and trainer. I happened upon a CTS 9 week plan for trying to reverse our detraining:
The Proven CTS 9-Week Holiday Cycling Training Plan - CTS

The long Sunday ride and weekday intervals, along with the body recomposition work we're doing at the gym should have us ready for the SIR winter training series in January - if we feel like doing it again this year.

We've been eating a Mediterranean version of Kris Gethin's diet in Body by Design. I'm down 9 lbs. from last November 1 and my wife is down about 8.

HkC01

Full summary, thanks for the link... from the notes:
* Stay in the range of 0.6 to 1 grams per pound lean body mass. (1.3 to 2.2 grams per kg lean body mass.)
* For 75kg, 12% bodyfat: 75*(1-0.12) * 1.3 = 86 grams to 145 grams


0.6-1.0g per pound is a broad range for protein. I'd be biased to target the higher end of the range, and the ketogains author seemed to suggest that too at 0.8-1.0g. Is there a consensus on protein intake for this type of diet?

RR3

Me too. My 200Km ride this weekend was 90 minutes faster than last year and I suffered last year whereas I did not perceive as much effort on this year's edition. I can now just barely climb with guys that I had no chance to climb with. On Brevets I typically ride slow mostly (9-12 hours for a 200K) or maybe I'll do half with the other riders and then dial it up after the halfway point to get a work out.

I went to Polarized Training late last year (December) and LCHF diet. I had had a lot of miles and structured training during 2014 but the these two changes took my endurance to a new level.

I stopped doing my intervals on the trainer because riding outside is so much more fun although it is very hard to precisely titrate the efforts on public roads. I almost think doing intervals on the trainer is more beneficial.

I'll look into the linked training plan. I lost fitness due to torn rotator cuff and I could not do volume or efforts. I guess I should ask the coach I hired a few weeks ago. LOL.

RR3

Data was my guide

Nova Max instrument and strips.

If I ate too much protein, some of it would convert via Gluconeogenesis or at least that was my explanation for lower ketone levels.

RR3

A new study shows higher fat oxidation levels near VO2 max than originally thought....

Rethinking the role of fat oxidation: substrate utilisation during high-intensity interval training in well-trained and recreationally trained runners -- Hetlelid et al. 1 (1) -- BMJ Open Sport & Exercise Medicine

I just stumbled upon the following website and it pretty much follows what I did to improve my aerobic threshold power from 160 to 210 watts. His test (MAF) is the time required to walk a mile at an age specified heart rate whereas I measured power on a trainer at 2 mmol of lactate corresponding to VT1. Interesting that the HR of VT1 corresponded fairly closely to the HR levels in this link...

MAF Methodology - Dr. Phil Maffetone

9606

RR3 - I need help, or information.
I am in my 10th day of "just do it" lchf. The urine test strips (I know, I just ordered a Nova Max) indicate above .5, certainly in the 1.5 range. I have good signs - reduced hunger, slightly reduced weight, reduced bowel movements, low blood pressure (though it always been good).
Also, I used to sweat like a pig, now I sweat like two pigs.
My cycling performance has fallen off the cliff. Is it because I have reduced my carb supply but not quite broken into ketone burning? I've read that it takes about 2+ weeks.
I can now barely finish a 1x20 in a 2x20 set.
Tell me there is light at the end of the tunnel!

Carbonfiberboy 

I also acquired a rotator cuff problem from a skiing fall. I got a PT script from my doctor and went to a sport performance PT. He diagnosed impingement and helped me set up a workout schedule, which worked. After doing the PT for a month, I could do the Gethin upper body workouts, starting with low weights.

RR3

You are trying to do anaerobic work. That is the problem. Everything that I read indicates low intensity aerobic work is indicated at this stage. I could be wrong. I started in early winter and did easy rides for about a month. I felt pretty week and lousy at first. low blood pressure sounds like you need more salt and minerals.....GOOGLE it. I also took some mundane nutritional supplements to help spur mitochondrial biogenesis but I chose not to list them to avoid opening thread drift.

My motivations might have been different....they were simply to improve my fat burning to conserve energy on long rides since one of my goals was "mastering" the 400km Brevet distance because I never like that distance and getting a handle on food/eating played a key role for me.

My intervals are only 4-6 minutes long...I never do 20 minute one...yuck. 4 minutes on my hill and 6 minutes on my trainer for the most part. Anyway. It took me several months before I felt comfortable doing say an hour effort at threshold but less time (maybe a bit more than month) before I noticed the need to eat less on long rides and a small but obvious increase in speed and power at VT1 (lactate based). I'd have to check my training diary but I did look at my excel spreadsheet and my LT1 was originally 150 watts (could be a typo on the spreadsheet....memory has it at 160 watts) and 116 BPM HR and after just 3 weeks of polarized training and after 7 weeks of LCHF diet, my VT1 was 190 watts at 111 BPM. Five months and probably 9,000 miles later, my Vt1 was 210 watts at around 125 BPM HR and my Vt2 HR went from the mid 150's to a TT where I averaged 168 BPM over the hour. My VT2 or FTP did not increase as much (15-20% IIRC...would have to check)....not even close but I did see obvious improvements there especially on climbs. I remember doing a 400k down South in February with riders who had ridden all Winter. I finished fresh as a rose and they all looked like hell warmed over. That is when it clicked....my legs were not sore and I needed no recovery. The big difference that I found was my ability to ride at 190-210+ watts for very long periods of time and it seems as if there is less soreness after big rides if that makes sense but I cannot explain it. I could do say 13 hours straight on a long ride with an average power of 180 watts. I could just go and go and then be riding good again within a couple days at most. Now, 21-22 mph is quite slow for a racer but this is fast for most endurance distance riders and since this what I desired in terms of performance, this training specificity got me there. I did huge volume at these relatively "slow" speeds. Some would call them junk miles but I would disagree. There were times that my VT2 power levels seemed off the charts (for me) and they came at lower heart rates....I never figured that out. At one point I was making 310 watts at 145 BPM HR....it was weird. I was like how could I be making so much power at such a low HR and I turned around and came home thinking something was wrong because my legs also felt a bit heavy although I was crushing it on the road. I searched the internet for an understanding but never found it.

Frankly, I really doubt LCHF makes any sense for anything other than ultra endurance distances; otherwise, the Crit or even the Stage Racers would be all over it and they are not. I remember looking at one cyclist's journey into LCHF and his FTP actually declined although the individual's VT1 or aerobic thresholds and respiratory exchange ratios improved indicating much high conservation of glycogen. If he was a TT Specialist, his times would have tanked. I guess my feeling that is long distance endurance events are largely about energy management and higher fat burning means less need to eat and as we all know, there is a limit to the amount of fuel that can be processed...some are better than others but I see lots of GI and nausea issues. On shorter rides at full gas, stored glycogen (muscle) and glucose (liver) along with some modest eating (say 200 cals per hour) can get you thru a 100 mile ride in good stead. Once they hit around 150-200 miles, the sugar burners will have a hard time processing enough carbs and therefore they slow way, way down to match energy input with output and this assumes they stave off the bonk. Obviously, we all slow down due to fatigue (a whole nuther thread there!!)

Hang in there. If you do not see results in a few months, it might not be for you. I would cut back the intensity for a few weeks and gradually dial it back up. 20 minute intervals are cruel and unusual punishment

RR3

Supraspinatus...at the back of the shoulder. Hurts. Hard time sleeping for a month and could not do hard riding although I did a slow 1200k in pain a few weeks ago. Tried to do a hard 300k and the last 6 hours were pretty bad. Just starting to ride decent but with aero bars. Power is down for sure. Doing a 24 hour TT next week to fix it for good.

ThermionicScott 

Fun fact: pigs don't actually sweat.

McBTC

Easy to take care of... you just need some, brachiation. Google --e.g., "shoulder impingement hanging Kirsch"

It [hanging from an overhead bar] cures 99 percent of shoulder pain. ~Dr. Kirsch

Carbonfiberboy 

Goals are the enemy now, not your friend. Aspirations are fine. Injuries are the big reason we don't see more elders in sport.

Carbonfiberboy 

Thanks, I'll try it starting today. Bought the Kindle edition:
Shoulder Pain? The Solution & Prevention: Fourth Edition - Kindle edition by John M. Kirsch M.D.. Health, Fitness & Dieting Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.
Instant gratification via Amazon.

RR3

Hard to give up on goals. I'm doing 400+. I can heal during the holidays.

c.miller64

I consider myself a sugar burner (75-80 gram/hr during ultras), and have never had this issue.

RR3

At what pace? At what distance?

Can you do a sub 10-11 hour double Century at that intake of 75-80 g/hr?

It is been my experience that few riders can maintain the same pace of the first 50 miles over the next 150 or so miles and that most riders slow way down in the 150-200 mile range. Just my observation.