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Old 10-28-15, 10:18 AM   #1
9606
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LCHF diet?

Someone suggested (in jest?) that the German first place PBP finisher was on an LCHF diet, or lifestyle, if you prefer.
I have been doing a lot of layman reading up on LCHF, including the book "...Performace", but not the original Lifestyle book.
For anyone that is keto adapted (or was at one time) AND doing regular structured cycle training or brevet riding, I would appreciate some answers:

1. Were you able to continue your regular training as you became keto adapted?
2. How long did it take to get keto adpated?
3. Do you intend to stay keto adapated, or if you are no longer, do you intend to get back to a keto adapated state?
4. For someone who is ready to start, what dos or don'ts can you suggest.

I think I have to change my diet, especially during brevets, because of gi and acid reflux problems.

PS - let's not get into a discussion of OPINIONS of the pros/cons of lchf for cyclists.
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Old 10-28-15, 11:17 AM   #2
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Someone suggested (in jest?) that the German first place PBP finisher was on an LCHF diet, or lifestyle, if you prefer.
I have been doing a lot of layman reading up on LCHF, including the book "...Performace", but not the original Lifestyle book.
For anyone that is keto adapted (or was at one time) AND doing regular structured cycle training or brevet riding, I would appreciate some answers:

1. Were you able to continue your regular training as you became keto adapted?
2. How long did it take to get keto adpated?
3. Do you intend to stay keto adapated, or if you are no longer, do you intend to get back to a keto adapated state?
4. For someone who is ready to start, what dos or don'ts can you suggest.

I think I have to change my diet, especially during brevets, because of gi and acid reflux problems.

PS - let's not get into a discussion of OPINIONS of the pros/cons of lchf for cyclists.
Not sure how you (or anyone) could have gotten that impression. Baguettes, Nutella, gels, bananas, croissants, and Coke don't strike me as LCHF.
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Old 10-28-15, 11:48 AM   #3
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It was me who said in jest that the PBP winner was keto/fat adapted.

Being fat adapted does not preclude the consumption of carbohydrates especially during a race. It just means that you need to consume fewer carbs than a non-fat adapted rider. French croissants are more than 50% fat while the baguettes with butter, cheese, and ham are not exactly low fat.

I have let myself slip off the LCHF bandwagon post PBP and intend to resume into the winter after the 24H TT Championship in Borrego Springs. I am no longer adapted although I still do not need to eat or drink much on a ride. I did 52 miles yesterday with 2,900 feet of climbing in just under 3 hours with average HR of 128 and average power of 180 watts. I drank half a bottle of water and had a Latte after 32 miles. That was all I had to eat all day. No breakfast or lunch because I was busy building up my new bike and it took longer than expected. I really did not need the latte with honey but I wanted it. I could have gone longer but it was getting dark and i did not have lights on the new bike. So, even though I am not in ketosis, I am fairly certain there are residual benefits.

It takes less than a week to get into a state of low ketosis but it takes several to many months for your body to adapt. I started on LCHF in December last year and I really noticed improved endurance on a 400K in late February of this year or about 10 weeks after starting LCHF. I really ate very little on that ride although it was a tame pace of around 17 hours. I kept at it with intervals. Power levels increased. I did a 400k and also a 600k as hard as I could in 13:34 and 23:45, respectively. Both of these rides required 260 and 200 cals per hour of maltodextrin if I remember right. I had planned on 150 per hour but that was not enough for riding at around 200 watts average.

Basically, I found that I could maintain a certain power output for a longer period of time compared to my sugar burning days or that in short it now takes more to fatigue me.

I believe it also takes a reasonable amount of training volume to increase mitochondria and associated enzymes. I have nearly 13,000 miles in this year. In other words.....YMMV
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Old 10-28-15, 12:56 PM   #4
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Thank goodness I do NOT have an interest in going FAST or whatever & have never felt the need to learn all these terms (e.g., LCHF, ketosis). I just ride at a reasonable pace and have done well enough -- at least I've enjoyed most of my rides the last 10+ years (the length of my adult cycling "career").

If I have real questions about these kind of things, I try to arrange a ride with my friend who is a Ph.D. Physiologist.

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Old 10-28-15, 01:01 PM   #5
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Don't eat any closer than 2 hours before a Brevet.

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SHOULD YOU EAT AND RUN?
It is best to start an exercise session with stable, fasting blood glucose levels and higher blood fat levels. Glucose is a powerful regulator of fat metabolism. The higher the glucose content of the blood, the lower the fat metabolism. High blood glucose levels are generated from dietary carbohydrates
MarathonGuide.com -

When fat adapted, this is what it looks like....



High-fat, low-carb diets: how to try one for yourself | CyclingTips
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Old 10-28-15, 01:05 PM   #6
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Not being overly reliant upon carbs is not a go fast thing.

It is more like a not puking kind of thing.

How many Randos and long distance riders get nausea, GI issues, reflux, and outright throwing up. Very common.

I don't consider nausea to be fun.
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Old 10-28-15, 01:34 PM   #7
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It's been a while since I played around with low-carb (I experimented with a lot of things in college ), but I may have to try the fat-adaptation thing before the next brevet season. It would be nice not to need to "manage" my carb intake as much.

Maybe there's something to Rule 91 after all.
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Old 10-28-15, 01:38 PM   #8
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RR3 -
Thank you for your comments and links.
"...4. For someone who is ready to start, what dos or don'ts can you suggest..." Do you have any advice for a training cyclist ready to start to get into ketosis?
I am on a program to improve my CP30 by 10%.
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Old 10-28-15, 02:26 PM   #9
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RR3 -
Thank you for your comments and links.
"...4. For someone who is ready to start, what dos or don'ts can you suggest..." Do you have any advice for a training cyclist ready to start to get into ketosis?
I am on a program to improve my CP30 by 10%.
I would do as much research as possible.

I would initially focus on long steady rides. If you can't comfortably talk, you are going too fast. Try to get at least one long ride in per week. I would suggest skipping intervals and really hard rides for a few weeks. I remember being a bit sluggish for the first few weeks. Besides, this is the off season.

I implemented polarized training at the same time as going LCHF; so, I am not sure how much of my improvement is a result of diet and how much due to training. My improvement in power was much more than 10% and I had trained nearly 10,000 miles in the previous year.
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Old 10-28-15, 09:16 PM   #10
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Not being overly reliant upon carbs is not a go fast thing.

It is more like a not puking kind of thing.

How many Randos and long distance riders get nausea, GI issues, reflux, and outright throwing up. Very common.

I don't consider nausea to be fun.
The only times I've had problems with nausea were related to Gatorade/water issues. Chowing down on whatever- no problems there. And nausea seems to be fairly uncommon as far as I can tell.
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Old 10-29-15, 06:10 AM   #11
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I am not doing LCHF to increase CP30. The timing is just a coincidence.
I am doing LCHF to reduce GI & acid reflux, which have come close to being game stoppers on brevets.

A few KOMS are part of some of our rides. I am concerned that there won't be enough carbs available for those efforts.

Any reliance on urine strips? Or did you ever use the blood prick strip reader?
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Old 10-29-15, 08:34 AM   #12
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How is the diet different from Atkins?
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Old 10-29-15, 08:42 AM   #13
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The only times I've had problems with nausea were related to Gatorade/water issues. Chowing down on whatever- no problems there. And nausea seems to be fairly uncommon as far as I can tell.
when I have nausea, heat adaptation and low conditioning at the start of the year are common factors for me. A lot of randos ride even though their conditioning isn't that great, I know I do.
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Old 10-29-15, 09:09 AM   #14
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McBTC -
I don't much about Atkins. I think carbs are allowed to increase in Atkins after the induction phase.
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Old 10-29-15, 10:34 AM   #15
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Atkiins allows high protein and that converts to glycogen

I use blood ******. Urine strip is neither accurate nor quantitative

Wrt not having sufficient glycogen to do a hard 30 minute effort, this was not my experience although the longest duration all out efforts were only about one hour time trials and crits.

GI distress is more likely in heat or overexertion or improper hydration or fueling but only on long rides in my observation. Nobody gets bloated or nauseous on a 100k permanent
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Old 10-29-15, 11:27 AM   #16
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McBTC -
I don't much about Atkins. I think carbs are allowed to increase in Atkins after the induction phase.
It's the same. So, you can learn a lot about it by going to their site --e.g.,
Atkins, on the other hand, limits carbohydrates (sugar), so the body burns fat, including body fat, for fuel. This approach leaves the body steadily fueled, and weight is lost, even when more calories are being consumed. Steady fueling also means more constant energy levels all day long, and less hunger and cravings! You can actually lose weight while feeling full! The science behind the Atkins principles has been proven by over 80 clinical studies!
While most know of it as a weight reduction diet for calorie-counters (and a lifestyle as you never go off of it) it also represents the latest thinking when it comes to training for endurance events. Back in the day, folks thought that pounding down a plate of spaghetti before a long bike ride was what the doctor ordered but no one believes that anymore. I worked with a dude that participates in triathlons and pays for trainers and dieticians to help improve his performance and they understand that your body needs to learn to burn fat for fuel during an event like a triathlon. His breakfast was pretty much not much more than a wad of sliced turkey. Something like bread is anathema. On a low-carb diet, protein and fat in any amounts are okay but no carbs except for things like berries. The South Beach or Mediterranean diet is essentially an improved Atkins --e.g., bacon is out as leaner meats are in and substituting more fish for red meat is healthier...
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Old 10-29-15, 12:09 PM   #17
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McBTC -
I don't much about Atkins. I think carbs are allowed to increase in Atkins after the induction phase.
Indeed. They are allowed to increase a little, if for no other reason than to make adherence to the diet easier, but since one of the goals of Atkins is to stay in ketosis, the subject needs to be careful not to add too much.

One thing generally missing from these discussions is that the blood sugar/insulin spikes that sedentary Atkins/low-carbers are so worried about don't really happen to the same degree in athletes. The body finds something to do with carbs that are ingested, to a point.
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Old 10-29-15, 04:42 PM   #18
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I think I'll stick with eating what I want and just be a little slower. I understand that special diets can help, but for a normal person does it really do that much?
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Old 10-29-15, 04:59 PM   #19
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I think I'll stick with eating what I want and just be a little slower. I understand that special diets can help, but for a normal person does it really do that much?
Normal people aren't allowed here. How did you get in?
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Old 10-29-15, 07:57 PM   #20
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The moderators are pretty lax on this forum.
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Old 11-02-15, 10:08 AM   #21
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Summary of Volek's book....

The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance by Jeff S Volek and Stephen D. Phinney ? a Summary - Ketogains
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Old 11-02-15, 12:23 PM   #22
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After 6 weeks off the bike during which time we had a bad flu, asthma, and giardiasis all at the same time, and maintaining what some would call a high carbohydrate diet, we led a 2.5 hour ride on the tandem this past Sunday. We mostly kept it down to VT1 - we had 5 minutes in zone 3. We each took in about 50 calories of carb/protein mix at our "lunch stop." Otherwise we didn't eat anything and had good power all the way, in spite of being way out of shape. We were obviously not keto adapted. My point being that it's not necessary to be "keto adapted" to be keto adapted, i.e. able to burn fat for energy on a long bike ride. It is necessary to have a history of doing long bike rides. I'm not sure that how one eats off the bike has anything to do with it, see the many posts of greg83 on this subject.

I see the word "science" in that book title. Do you know of any RCTs of competitive cyclists showing that their off-the-bike diet changes the fuels they burn on the bike? I know that various TdF competitors have tried eating alternative diets but have found no favorable results, nor has their been any rush I've heard of toward alternative diets among the pros. Among RAAM riders
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most riders aimed for the standard proportion of 70/20/10 with respect to carbohydrates, proteins, and fats.
and ate an average of 72% liquids. Strasser used almost exclusively liquids.
www.jmvelez.com/images/nutrition_raam.doc
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Old 11-02-15, 12:43 PM   #23
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I would like to point out that a 2.5 hour ride is not a "long bike ride" that would normally involve eating anything. That's close to typical brevet control distances, about what typical club rides run.
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Old 11-02-15, 01:11 PM   #24
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I would like to point out that a 2.5 hour ride is not a "long bike ride" that would normally involve eating anything. That's close to typical brevet control distances, about what typical club rides run.
You are welcome to not eat for as long as suits you. Personally, I've never done a hard 400 without eating.

Edit: and though that is a nice, solid dis, I think you just made my point.
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Old 11-02-15, 01:23 PM   #25
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For a ride, anything goes but as a lifestyle choice, so the story goes: a daily diet of > 10-15% protein will boil your kidneys and liver; and, there's nothing negative about carbohydrate calories but... refined carbs aren't good for you.
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