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  1. #1
    Brompton Randonneur
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    PBP 2007 Rules Published.

    Hi all,

    The rules for PBP 2007 are published, currently only in French:
    http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/FR/...hp?showpage=61


    Could someone who knows French, and the PBP 2003 rules give an update of what's changed?

    In article 3, using Google-Translate, it seems that LEDs are permitted?
    Il est fortement recommandé de prévoir le double éclairage, torche, dynamo ou diode fixe.
    Thanks, Tal.
    Last edited by tkatzir; 12-29-06 at 12:51 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Marcello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkatzir
    Could someone who knows French, and the PBP 2003 rules give an update of what's changed?
    The highlights of the "reglement" seem to be:

    • The 90 hour riders will start at 9.30 PM
    • No triathlon bars or other handlebar extensions allowed (as expected)
    • Lights should allow you to "be seen" 100m ahead and 150m behind
    • Blinking taillight are not allowed (as expected)
    • Backup lighting is "highly recommended"
    • You must have completed a 400k or longer brevet using the same bike you will use at PBP (not sure how they could enforce that)
    • Reflective vest or sash is mandatory, helmet is highly recommended.


    Quote Originally Posted by tkatzir
    In article 3, using Google-Translate, it seems that LEDs are permitted?
    They mention LED lights when they talk about taillights (where LED are the standard nowadays) and backup lighting. I don't see anything specifically saying that LED headlights are permitted or not.

  3. #3
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    I haven't looked to other documents – namely the French Highway Code – and I am not into brevet riding so I find some of these rules very funny, but at least, my command of French is better than my command of English, so here I go (warning: quick translation, and I'm not a lawyer).

    Art. 3. Qualifications of Machines

    Two- or three-wheel "machines" with a handlebar and muscle-powered by a transmission made of crankset(s) and chain(s) are accepted, as long as they are not wider than 1 m.

    Triathlete handlebars and all sorts of "extensions" are forbidden (comment: does it exclude bar ends too?)

    Machines must have front and rear lighting. Front lighting should be powerful enough to be visible 100 m away, and rear lighting should be powerful to be visible 150 m away. This lighting should be solidly attached on the bike, even during daytime, and in working order all the time. To the rear, it's forbidden to have a flashing red LED.

    ************
    Comments on lighting:
    French and German laws require bike lights to be on the bike at all times; they also require lots of reflectors. They also require a white light to the front and a red light to the rear, and both need to be in steady mode. I think that a flashing red light would pass in France (but not in PBP), as long as there is a non-flashing one too. And contrary to the U.S. and Canada, I don't think that a rear-facing yellow LED would pass, even if supplemented with a red one. We strongly recommend double-lighting, with a second torch (i.e. removeable flashlight or headlight), generator or steady LED(s).
    If a participant is stopped for inexistent or inadequate lighting, he or she will be allowed to continue only when the problem is fixed, unless he/she has emergency lighting to reach the next control point.
    One must do at least one 400-km or 600-km brevet with the same machine prior to the PBP. ...

    *************
    So unless there are other rules somewhere else, they don't care whether you use LED, HID, halogen or anything else, as long as the lights pass the visibility standard. They also don't define what makes a headlight or taillight "visible". Would a tiny one LED gizmo be "visible"? After all, one can see it if it's pitch dark around it! However, if I remember correctly, the French highway code requires the light to actually light the road for some distance.


    As for the differences between main and emergency lightling, the only differences I see are that the emergency lighting doesn't need to be as powerful as the main one, and doesn't need to be permanently attached to the bike. In other words, a Planet Bike Beamer stuffed in your pack could work as emergency light.
    Michel Gagnon
    Montréal (Québec, Canada)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michel Gagnon
    I haven't looked to other documents – namely the French Highway Code – and I am not into brevet riding so I find some of these rules very funny, but at least, my command of French is better than my command of English, so here I go (warning: quick translation, and I'm not a lawyer).
    Thanks Michel. No-one could say your English is far from perfect -- in fact, compared with many, it is as close to perfect as it could be. Thanks for the translations.

    Hopefully, debate on what is acceptable or not with PBP lighting will be stymied and we can get on to enjoying the qualifiers without the eternal lighting debate distracting us (although, no doubt, someone is going to come up with something "controversial" to discuss just because PBP is a French event).

    Personally, I think anyone who spends $5,000 on a bike, $2,000 on qualifying and $2,000 on getting to and from PBP, then quibbles about providing themselves with adequate lighting is deficient in some way. Still, it takes all types in the cycling world.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan
    <SNIP>(although, no doubt, someone is going to come up with something "controversial" to discuss just because PBP is a French event).

    Personally, I think anyone who spends $5,000 on a bike, $2,000 on qualifying and $2,000 on getting to and from PBP, then quibbles about providing themselves with adequate lighting is deficient in some way.
    The controversial part might be along the lines that the bike/trike must have a chain transmission. Shaft and belt drive is out, as is the 'kickbike' scooter of Alpo the flying Finn of 2003. Somebody obviously got their nose out of joint about that one. No chance for someone to ride a penny farthing either...

    Not everybody spends $5,000 on a bike and $2,000 getting to PBP. In 1995, one Brit rode a '50s machine that cost the grand total of 35GBP earlier that year and less again on the ferry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LWaB
    Not everybody spends $5,000 on a bike and $2,000 getting to PBP. In 1995, one Brit rode a '50s machine that cost the grand total of 35GBP earlier that year and less again on the ferry.
    I didn't refer to people on low budgets. They are the sort who are ingenious enough to come up with acceptable solutions such as the torch taped to a fork leg... and don't complain about the (lighting) rules as though complying with them was going to be the end of the world. I stand by my illustration... I've found it's usually the guys with expensive bikes and an expensive outlook on life that have complained the most about the cost of good lighting.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

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    34x25 FTW! oboeguy's Avatar
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    It sounds like a PITA to have all the details right for PBP. I wish I had the onions to say right now that I'd like to go for it but I don't know that I can or want to commit the kind of time needed. The funny thing is I'm thinking of doing the local 600 qualifier this year because it's supposed to be about as easy as 600s get, and from another thread you can see I'm thinking of doing the local fleche too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Order
    Quote Originally Posted by sknhgy
    I do not want to be associated with the kind of riders that come through my neck of the woods on weekends, dressed in superhero costumes
    Do they wear capes?
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    http://www.cycopaths.net/

  8. #8
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oboeguy
    It sounds like a PITA to have all the details right for PBP.

    It's really NOT as bad as it sounds. Last time, I just headed over there with my bicycle and all the equipment I had used on my qualifying brevets (plus three bulbs which I had to get at the last minute), and everything was just fine.

    After all, on all your qualifying brevets you need front and rear lights, reflective gear, helmet, at least one brake, etc., etc. And the rules are very similar to any other 1200K.

    BTW - Aerobars have never been allowed on the PBP because they are too dangerous. When I was getting ready for the 2003 PBP, the organizers of the Manitoba Randonneurs (the club I was with) recommended that we all remove any aerobars, if we had been using them, and ride the qualifying series without ... and so that's what I did. Interestingly, I thought I would hate riding without them, but I've never put them on again.

  9. #9
    Senior Member The Octopus's Avatar
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    Having aerobars on the bike is dangerous, but the helmet is optional? Sorry, I had to go there.

    For others like me who love their bars, Machka's advice is solid. Take 'em off for all your qualifiers. It's amazing what a difference it makes. So plan ahead to accomodate to the change.

    Of course, without the aerobars, that just means I'll eventually give in to temptation and ride with my forearms on the bar, hands dangling off into space. That's safe. Better bring my helmet.

  10. #10
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Octopus
    Having aerobars on the bike is dangerous, but the helmet is optional? Sorry, I had to go there.

    For others like me who love their bars, Machka's advice is solid. Take 'em off for all your qualifiers. It's amazing what a difference it makes. So plan ahead to accomodate to the change.

    Of course, without the aerobars, that just means I'll eventually give in to temptation and ride with my forearms on the bar, hands dangling off into space. That's safe. Better bring my helmet.

    Aerobars are dangerous because the slightest shoulder movement can turn the bicycle. When you're riding in a pack of 50-ish people and everyone is jostling everyone else anyway, because the roads are fairly narrow, one tiny evasive move on the aerobars and you could take out a whole pile of people. Plus it is harder to reach the brakes when you're on the aerobars. And unless you rewire things, shifting is difficult on the aerobars ... and to me, that's one of the main reasons to remove them.

    On the 2003 PBP I never stopped shifting! I shifted all the way up the hills, I shifted when I got to the top of the hills, I was down the other side in about 5 seconds and began shifting my way up the next hill. My hands never left the shifters. And there was absolutely no need for aerobars ... you're either going up or going down, and neither for very long at a time. I didn't miss them at all.

  11. #11
    Senior Member The Octopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka
    Aerobars are dangerous because the slightest shoulder movement can turn the bicycle. When you're riding in a pack of 50-ish people and everyone is jostling everyone else anyway, because the roads are fairly narrow, one tiny evasive move on the aerobars and you could take out a whole pile of people. Plus it is harder to reach the brakes when you're on the aerobars. And unless you rewire things, shifting is difficult on the aerobars ... and to me, that's one of the main reasons to remove them.
    I agree about the danger (which is why bars should never be ridden in a group), but -- tongue firmly placed in cheek -- it's so un-French to ban something just because it's dangerous!

    I've found in practice that a caveat to the "no bars in groups rule" is if the group is small and the wind is strong enough to echelon out, some folks will ride their bars in ultra-races where drafting is permitted. Not that it's a great idea, but if lateral movement isn't going to take out the guy in front or behind you, the practice flies with some small groups. The times I've seen it done it was in small (4-6 people) groups and was done by agreement of the group after each of us had taken a few turns at the front and were comfortable with the bike handling skills and attentiveness of our fellow group members. YMMV.

    On the 2003 PBP I never stopped shifting! I shifted all the way up the hills, I shifted when I got to the top of the hills, I was down the other side in about 5 seconds and began shifting my way up the next hill. My hands never left the shifters. And there was absolutely no need for aerobars ... you're either going up or going down, and neither for very long at a time. I didn't miss them at all.
    Yea! My RBA report that the terrain on PBP looks pretty similar to what we ride on our brevets in the southern and south-eastern part of our state. I can't wait!

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    French road rules prevent the use of aero bars on group rides. It isn't just a PBP-specific rule.

  13. #13
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    Hi all

    Something in from another group which may be of interest which in part reads:

    There has been considerable discussion about the use of LEDs as primary headlights on the next PBP.
    I thought I had seen this but being a little busy at present couldn't easily put my hands on a definitive answer. With the last lot of Australian brevet results I sent I asked Jean-Gualbert and his reply, is copied below:

    "About LED headlamps, they will be allowed as main lighting for the next PBP, if they can be seen
    at more than 150 meters. No spare bulb is required.

    Best regards,
    Jean-Gualbert"

    Hope this is of interest? *grin*
    Chris
    2006 Orbea Araia
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrispatoz
    Hi all

    Something in from another group which may be of interest which in part reads:

    There has been considerable discussion about the use of LEDs as primary headlights on the next PBP.
    I thought I had seen this but being a little busy at present couldn't easily put my hands on a definitive answer. With the last lot of Australian brevet results I sent I asked Jean-Gualbert and his reply, is copied below:

    "About LED headlamps, they will be allowed as main lighting for the next PBP, if they can be seen
    at more than 150 meters. No spare bulb is required.

    Best regards,
    Jean-Gualbert"

    Hope this is of interest? *grin*

    Yes, that's great news (from Peter Mathews, right? )

    But I don't think I'll carry only one [LED] light.
    I'll have at least one mounted, and another in the bag (or mounted as well.) Maybe more than that.
    I have the Cateye EL-500, but as good as it is (someone would probably comment on this,) I'd like a smaller (in size) one.


    P.S. I wonder how many of us are in the various Long Distance forums/groups.
    Maybe we should have a sticky that lists them all?

    Tal.

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    Senior Member The Octopus's Avatar
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    Are fenders required on PBP? Les reglements haven't yet been translated into English....

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    Fenders haven't been required in recent editions. I am not sure they ever were required on PBP.

    They used to be mandatory in England randonneuring (AUK), but no longer, I believe; LWaB will tell you for sure on that one.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

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    1991 or 1995 was the last PBP that required mudguards. AUK require mudguards for some 200+km events (<10%), noted in their calendar.

  18. #18
    Chocolate and nap Michelangelo's Avatar
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    In article 3, using Google-Translate, it seems that LEDs are permitted?
    Yes, LEDs will be permitted, and will most probably be the prevailing mode of lighting. They WERE also permitted on 2003, but in 2003, it was mandatory to have lighting (dynamo or batteries) with spare bulbs. Spare bulbs will not, as we understand, be required, but anyone using halogen bulbs would be well advised (required or not) to carry spares anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Octopus
    Are fenders required on PBP? Les reglements haven't yet been translated into English....
    Yes they were but not on internet. You can find them in the PBP pamphlet http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/EN/...hp?showpage=21
    and we will add them soon on the english version of the web site
    JG Faburel
    ACP vice-president
    PBP organizer

  20. #20
    Senior Member Fixedwheelnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Octopus
    Having aerobars on the bike is dangerous, but the helmet is optional? Sorry, I had to go there.

    Better bring my helmet.

    I agree with that, in 2003 I was approx 15m behind the guy who came off on the last day shortly after leaving Montagne au Perche.

    The three riders were in front of me when all of a sudden they all just wobbled together and one went right up in the air and landed on his face. Despite the helmet he was clearly in a bad way.

    I stopped and lent my phone to one of the French riders to phone for help, two marshalls turned up shortly and took over.

    I was shocked to learn that he had later died, riding on tri-bars would only serve to increase such incidents.

    It is all too easy to have a lapse of concentration when tired and wobble catch bars with another rider, I'll stick to the slow plod and try and finish in one piece
    Don't stop pedalling

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    Thanks for that post, Fixed.

    We now seem to have a definitive answer to a question that many of us had pondered for over three years in regard to this death. There seems to have been little made available about this incident.(which, I understand, is the French way).

    It's a sobering reminder that PBP has its risks along with other forms randonneuring and indeed cycling.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixedwheelnut
    I was shocked to learn that he had later died, riding on tri-bars would only serve to increase such incidents.
    No one died in 2003! The last was in 1975 and we are very happy to have no more since that year.
    JG Faburel
    ACP vice-president
    PBP organizer

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    Senior Member Fixedwheelnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JG Faburel
    No one died in 2003! The last was in 1975 and we are very happy to have no more since that year.

    That's interesting because a lot of us asked after the guy to find out how he was and AUK were told he died. I believe it was published in Arrivee I shall dig out my old copies and have a look.

    I would be only to pleased to be mis-informed.

    If indeed he is not pass on to him my regards.
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    Indeed, we are ALL pleased to hear that and to be misinformed. Thank you, JG... you've cleared it up nicely.

    The incident is still a sobering reminder of the need to minimise risk.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

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