Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling Do you enjoy centuries, double centuries, brevets, randonnees, and 24-hour time trials? Share ride reports, and exchange training, equipment, and nutrition information specific to long distance cycling. This isn't for tours, this is for endurance events cycling

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-11-07, 10:51 AM   #1
ldesfor1@ithaca
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Newton Ctr. MA
Bikes: 2 cdale Caad7. Scatantte CX/winter bike. SS commuter.
Posts: 2,109
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wheel options for audax

I've done many searches and am looking for experienced opinions on good wheel/tire choices for a 210-220 lb. (96-100 kilo), ideally from a similar weighted person. May be used for ultralight touring but will never see over 250 pounds of total weight (and i would use only front panniers). Main use would be training and long distance riding including my first brevets. I am loving the idea of the Neuvation M28's at 1720 grams and supposedly pretty sturdy. I dont love the low spoke count, but would have no problem carrying a few extra spokes. Second option would be to have a set of Ultegra hubs laced to 32/36 hole rims and i'm thinking open pros, even though open sports may be better for me (1970-2100 grams). I value reliability, but would also love to have a lighter wheelset as my only bikes now have touring wheelsets and are not super enjoyable to ride.
I'm thinkng that i'd like to go with Continental 4seasons in 28mm or the Panaracer rolly pollies or ruffy tuffies. any advice from heavier randoneurs would be appreciated.

BTW, im 6'3' and will likely never weigh less than 200, and i'm pretty gently on my wheels. thanks
ldesfor1@ithaca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-07, 11:31 AM   #2
tibikefor2
Zinophile
 
tibikefor2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vienna, Virginia
Bikes: Spectrum Ti, Spectrum Track and Lemond Propad
Posts: 865
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
DT 240s Hubs (300 grams for both)
DT 14/15 gauge spokes (32 spokes for each wheel for a total of 460 grams with brass nipples)
DT swiss rim with double eyelets (465 grams each rim)

Should be about 1700 grams

An alternative rim would be the IRD Cadence Aero Rim (30mm high and incredibly strong, 465 grams per rim)

My training partners who ride a tandem, use 25mm Michelin Pro Race 2 Tires.
__________________
Tibikefor2

Last edited by tibikefor2; 01-11-07 at 12:05 PM.
tibikefor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-07, 11:42 AM   #3
supcom
You need a new bike
 
supcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Bikes:
Posts: 5,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My feeling is that the Neuvations are a good choice for racing, but not so much for randonneuring or touring. The low spoke count might give you trouble. Do you really want to have to replace a drive side spoke in the middle of the night? Also, bladed spokes can be less than fun in stiff crosswinds.

A 32 spoke Open Pro should make for a reliable wheel. If you do opt for a low spoke, ultralight wheel, do it up front where the loads are less.

I'd also say that you're not going to save a significant percentage of weight by opting for the Neuvations. Yes, I know that it's rotating weight, but that's only important for accelerating. And unless you plan to race, the benefit will be negligible. Besides, you are talking about putting 28 mm tires on the wheels. The 28's will certainly help the comfort level of any wheel, as you can run them at lower pressures.
supcom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-07, 01:16 PM   #4
Paul L.
Senior Member
 
Paul L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Arizona, USA
Bikes: Mercier Corvus (commuter), Fila Taos (MTB), Trek 660(Got frame for free and put my LeMans Centurian components on it)
Posts: 2,601
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Was behind a guy on a low spoke count wheel last year on the end of a 300k and his back wheel made a really funny kind of bossanova rythm as it rubbed on his seatstay afterwards. I offered him my fiberfix but he didn't want it. The more spokes, the less out of true your wheel is going to go if one breaks and the better likely hood you have of straightening it out again.
__________________
Sunrise saturday,
I was biking the backroads,
lost in the moment.
Paul L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-07, 01:33 PM   #5
thebulls
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Bikes: SOMA Grand Randonneur, Gunnar Sport converted to 650B, Rivendell Rambouillet, '82 Trek 728, '84 Trek 610, '85 Trek 500, C'Dale F600, Burley Duet, Lotus Legend
Posts: 998
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
I'm in the same weight range and useage pattern. Since starting randonneuring two years ago, I've ridden Open Pro's laced with 36 spokes to 105 or Ultegra hubs (two wheelsets, one for brevets, one for training rides). With ~7000 km of brevets, including BMB, I've broken one spoke.

When I bought my bike five years ago, it had 32 spoke wheels, and I was breaking spokes all over. I've since been told that those wheels were notoriously unreliable (REI replaced them with the OpenPro 36's). But on the once-burned-twice-shy theory of wheelbuying, I just can't see any point in risking the 32's, and the weight savings is negligible.

Oh, for tires I've ridden Vittoria Rubino Pro 23's, Panaracer Pro 23's, Conti GP4 25's and 28's. All have had about the same frequency of flats. Currently riding on GP4 28's. The extra volume provides a bit more cushy feel, and doesn't seem to have a noticeable amount more rolling resistance. Biketiresdirect.com has good prices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ldesfor1@ithaca
I've done many searches and am looking for experienced opinions on good wheel/tire choices for a 210-220 lb. (96-100 kilo), ideally from a similar weighted person. May be used for ultralight touring but will never see over 250 pounds of total weight (and i would use only front panniers). Main use would be training and long distance riding including my first brevets. I am loving the idea of the Neuvation M28's at 1720 grams and supposedly pretty sturdy. I dont love the low spoke count, but would have no problem carrying a few extra spokes. Second option would be to have a set of Ultegra hubs laced to 32/36 hole rims and i'm thinking open pros, even though open sports may be better for me (1970-2100 grams). I value reliability, but would also love to have a lighter wheelset as my only bikes now have touring wheelsets and are not super enjoyable to ride.
I'm thinkng that i'd like to go with Continental 4seasons in 28mm or the Panaracer rolly pollies or ruffy tuffies. any advice from heavier randoneurs would be appreciated.

BTW, im 6'3' and will likely never weigh less than 200, and i'm pretty gently on my wheels. thanks
thebulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-07, 02:27 PM   #6
tibikefor2
Zinophile
 
tibikefor2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vienna, Virginia
Bikes: Spectrum Ti, Spectrum Track and Lemond Propad
Posts: 865
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The most important aspect of wheelbuilding is the wheelbuilder. Excellent wheelbuilders are:

Joe Young: http://www.youngwheels.com/information.html

Eric Gottesman: www.ergottwheels.com

Jeremy of Alchemy Bicycle Works in Santa Fe NM

Ligero Wheelworks: http://www.ligerowheels.com/

A good wheelbuilder will fine tune the wheel for your body type and useage.
__________________
Tibikefor2
tibikefor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-07, 02:57 PM   #7
bmike
Bye Bye
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gone gone gone
Bikes:
Posts: 3,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by supcom
My feeling is that the Neuvations are a good choice for racing, but not so much for randonneuring or touring. The low spoke count might give you trouble. Do you really want to have to replace a drive side spoke in the middle of the night? Also, bladed spokes can be less than fun in stiff crosswinds.

A 32 spoke Open Pro should make for a reliable wheel. If you do opt for a low spoke, ultralight wheel, do it up front where the loads are less.

I'd also say that you're not going to save a significant percentage of weight by opting for the Neuvations. Yes, I know that it's rotating weight, but that's only important for accelerating. And unless you plan to race, the benefit will be negligible. Besides, you are talking about putting 28 mm tires on the wheels. The 28's will certainly help the comfort level of any wheel, as you can run them at lower pressures.

+1

I started just north of 200lbs and had a set of 32 hole Mavic OPs built for me. Wonderful wheels, and even though I've shed nearly 30 pounds I wouldn't change them. I had the front wheel - with my dynohub - fly off the roof rack at 80mph passing a tractor trailer. The big rig missed it - and it bounced off the median and ended in the shoulder amongst the rocks. Took me 15 minutes to find it - but when I did it spun true. I had the LBS take a peak at it for me and they found nothing wrong. It's worked fine since, nearly 8 months.

IMHO traditionally spoked wheels ride is smoother than minimal spoked and aero spoked wheels. I've ridden both - and prefer the Mavic OPs and Mavic Classics (both 32s) to my Bontragers with minimal aero spokes.

Find a good local wheelbuilder who warranties their work, or use a reliable online source. My LBS mech does lifetime truing - but I've only had the pair tweaked about 2 weeks after "breaking them in".

For LD riding I'd recommend against using the alloy nipples. They corrode and will evnetually break. I've had this happen on my rear wheel. Not much you can do about it on the road, even with a fiberfix as there isn't anything to grip.

I've had the rear rebuilt with brass nipples, and I will be doing the front when I have opportunity. (I'll use a bit of Tri-Flow on the front at the nipple / threads when cleaning after a rainy ride.)
__________________
So long. Been nice knowing you BF.... to all the friends I've made here and in real life... its been great. But this place needs an enema.
bmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-07, 03:20 PM   #8
tibikefor2
Zinophile
 
tibikefor2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vienna, Virginia
Bikes: Spectrum Ti, Spectrum Track and Lemond Propad
Posts: 865
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmike
For LD riding I'd recommend against using the alloy nipples. They corrode and will evnetually break. I've had this happen on my rear wheel. Not much you can do about it on the road, even with a fiberfix as there isn't anything to grip.
Annodized alloy nipples help prevent corrosion.
__________________
Tibikefor2
tibikefor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-07, 04:21 PM   #9
LWaB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Auld Blighty
Bikes: Early Cannondale tandem, '99 S&S Frezoni Audax, '65 Moulton Stowaway, '52 Claud Butler, TSR30, Brompton
Posts: 2,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tibikefor2
Annodized alloy nipples help prevent corrosion.
Not at the threads.
LWaB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-07, 05:43 PM   #10
tibikefor2
Zinophile
 
tibikefor2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vienna, Virginia
Bikes: Spectrum Ti, Spectrum Track and Lemond Propad
Posts: 865
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LWaB
Not at the threads.
That is why good wheel builders use spoke prep and linseed oil.

My next set of LD wheels are being built by Joe Young.

DT 240s Hubs
DT Supercomp Spokes (2.0/1.7/1.8) with allow nipples, spoke prep & linseed oil
DT 1.1 sinlgle eyelet rims

A friend has over 10K miles on these wheels with no nipple failures.
__________________
Tibikefor2
tibikefor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-07, 03:37 AM   #11
LWaB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Auld Blighty
Bikes: Early Cannondale tandem, '99 S&S Frezoni Audax, '65 Moulton Stowaway, '52 Claud Butler, TSR30, Brompton
Posts: 2,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
True but try living near to the sea or where they salt the roads. Anodising doesn't offer THAT much protection.

Last edited by LWaB; 01-12-07 at 08:07 AM.
LWaB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-07, 09:02 AM   #12
tibikefor2
Zinophile
 
tibikefor2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vienna, Virginia
Bikes: Spectrum Ti, Spectrum Track and Lemond Propad
Posts: 865
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
True, but for 7 months out of the year, he would not have to worry about salt. I use a diffent set of wheels for when it is disgusting out.
__________________
Tibikefor2
tibikefor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-07, 10:31 AM   #13
bmike
Bye Bye
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gone gone gone
Bikes:
Posts: 3,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The nipples on my wheels failed without salt involved - just with lots of rain riding.
If I were a racer boy I'd have built up a lite set of wheels... and I'd use them only for events.


I really think the rotational weight of the brass nipples is negligible in LD cycling. Especially if you throw a dyno hub into the mix. And lights, a bag, extra clothes, etc. Then put on those 28's that offer some puncture resistance and you've shot the whole thing down!

Its not like folks are accerlating out of controls so they can be first to make the next corner...

YMMV
__________________
So long. Been nice knowing you BF.... to all the friends I've made here and in real life... its been great. But this place needs an enema.
bmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-07, 10:58 AM   #14
tibikefor2
Zinophile
 
tibikefor2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vienna, Virginia
Bikes: Spectrum Ti, Spectrum Track and Lemond Propad
Posts: 865
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmike
The nipples on my wheels failed without salt involved - just with lots of rain riding.
If I were a racer boy I'd have built up a lite set of wheels... and I'd use them only for events.


I really think the rotational weight of the brass nipples is negligible in LD cycling. Especially if you throw a dyno hub into the mix. And lights, a bag, extra clothes, etc. Then put on those 28's that offer some puncture resistance and you've shot the whole thing down!

Its not like folks are accerlating out of controls so they can be first to make the next corner...

YMMV
I have never had any problems, but then I cut up my wheels every two to three years.
__________________
Tibikefor2
tibikefor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-07, 03:40 PM   #15
bmike
Bye Bye
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gone gone gone
Bikes:
Posts: 3,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tibikefor2
I have never had any problems, but then I cut up my wheels every two to three years.
mine failed in 3 months. the mech used spoke prep as well. he apologized for not recommended the brass nipples which more suit my style of riding.

like most things in life its all relative.
__________________
So long. Been nice knowing you BF.... to all the friends I've made here and in real life... its been great. But this place needs an enema.
bmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-07, 04:11 PM   #16
Thrifty1
Senior Member
 
Thrifty1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: OK
Bikes:
Posts: 780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Very dissatisfied with and urgently caution against any/all interaction with www.Superspokes.com
I ordered a Ultegra-Velocity Fusion wheelset.......it has been over a month since my credit card was charged and still no wheels and no completion/ship date. They do not return phone calls........refuse to provide actual build status or completion/ship dates via email.
Learn to build your own or be extremely cautious in selecting a wheel builder.
Thrifty1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-07, 06:09 PM   #17
Paul L.
Senior Member
 
Paul L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Arizona, USA
Bikes: Mercier Corvus (commuter), Fila Taos (MTB), Trek 660(Got frame for free and put my LeMans Centurian components on it)
Posts: 2,601
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hmmm, I have ordered rims from them and had no problems.
__________________
Sunrise saturday,
I was biking the backroads,
lost in the moment.
Paul L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-07, 08:02 PM   #18
tibikefor2
Zinophile
 
tibikefor2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vienna, Virginia
Bikes: Spectrum Ti, Spectrum Track and Lemond Propad
Posts: 865
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrifty1
Very dissatisfied with and urgently caution against any/all interaction with www.Superspokes.com
I ordered a Ultegra-Velocity Fusion wheelset.......it has been over a month since my credit card was charged and still no wheels and no completion/ship date. They do not return phone calls........refuse to provide actual build status or completion/ship dates via email.
Learn to build your own or be extremely cautious in selecting a wheel builder.
Thrifty1:

The wheel builders that I recommended are some of the best in the country and are all true gentlemen.

I know many people who have bought wheels from them with no problem.
__________________
Tibikefor2
tibikefor2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-07, 09:10 AM   #19
ldesfor1@ithaca
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Newton Ctr. MA
Bikes: 2 cdale Caad7. Scatantte CX/winter bike. SS commuter.
Posts: 2,109
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hey, thanks for all the very useful replies. I chose ergottwheels' builder Eric to build me up a set of wheels. he is building me (after some discusions with an annoying/anal retentaive buyer) this wheelset:
Ultegra hubs, 36h
Sapim race spokes, brass nips
Velocity aerohead rims, offcenter in rear
veloplugs instead of rim tape

about 1860 grams. i have a set of conti 4seasons 28c waiting for them and an ultegra 9speed 12-27 cassette.
i am extremely exited to ride these wheels and the bike that is awaiting them as well which is barely ridden as of yet.
ldesfor1@ithaca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-07, 12:34 PM   #20
thebulls
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Bikes: SOMA Grand Randonneur, Gunnar Sport converted to 650B, Rivendell Rambouillet, '82 Trek 728, '84 Trek 610, '85 Trek 500, C'Dale F600, Burley Duet, Lotus Legend
Posts: 998
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldesfor1@ithaca
Hey, thanks for all the very useful replies. ...
veloplugs instead of rim tape
One thing to watch out for with those Veloplugs: Sometimes they'll stick to the inner tube, so when you're changing a flat, you pull the old tube out and stick it into your bag (failing to notice Veloplug hanging off tube), put the new tube in, pump it up, and BANG!!!!

After you figure out what happened, you put the Veloplug back in, and hope that you don't get another flat in your one remaining tube.

Other than that, I've been running them for a couple of years now, and haven't noticed any problems. But I probably wouldn't bother with them if I hadn't already bought them -- it's hard to believe they save enough weight that you could actually tell the difference between otherwise identical wheels, and they are a little fiddly.
thebulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-07, 01:03 PM   #21
ldesfor1@ithaca
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Newton Ctr. MA
Bikes: 2 cdale Caad7. Scatantte CX/winter bike. SS commuter.
Posts: 2,109
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
hey thebulls, thanks for the warning. one thing i think i will appreciate about the velo plugs is the ease of spoke changing if needed. losing a nipple in the rim is not great. thanks again though.
ldesfor1@ithaca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-07, 11:30 AM   #22
thebulls
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Bikes: SOMA Grand Randonneur, Gunnar Sport converted to 650B, Rivendell Rambouillet, '82 Trek 728, '84 Trek 610, '85 Trek 500, C'Dale F600, Burley Duet, Lotus Legend
Posts: 998
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldesfor1@ithaca
hey thebulls, thanks for the warning. one thing i think i will appreciate about the velo plugs is the ease of spoke changing if needed. losing a nipple in the rim is not great. thanks again though.
FWIW, I've had great success using FiberFix replacement spokes. On my first 600, I broke a spoke at 1 am (a mile from my hotel room, so I had the luxury of replacing the spoke in the hotel room), and rode nearly 150 miles on it the next day. On a later occasion, I broke a spoke on a "fun ride" and then rode the FiberFix for the next several weeks, while I kept intending to fix the spoke "before the next ride".
thebulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-07, 12:44 PM   #23
ldesfor1@ithaca
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Newton Ctr. MA
Bikes: 2 cdale Caad7. Scatantte CX/winter bike. SS commuter.
Posts: 2,109
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
ha, funny you say that, as i am planning on going over to Harris Cyclery today after work and grabbing one too. glad to hear the endorsement.
-leo
ldesfor1@ithaca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-07, 01:01 PM   #24
terbennett
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chino, California
Bikes: Felt F1,Felt FA, Fuji Club LE and Specialized Allez
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm 210 lbs and must say that Neuvation M28 Aeros are great wheels. I've been riding on mine for 11 months and have put over 8,000 miles on mine. The only problem I had was a spoke break at around 1,100miles. I hadthe rear wheel replaced for free and haven't looked back. However, you can never go wrong with a pair of Mavic Open Pros. Higher spoke count may mean more weight but Open Pros are practically bullet-proof. You can race on them and they're great for touring from what I've been told. Just make sure you get a good hub on the build (Ultegra or Dura-Ace preferred) if you're going to abuse them.
terbennett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-07, 01:28 PM   #25
ldesfor1@ithaca
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Newton Ctr. MA
Bikes: 2 cdale Caad7. Scatantte CX/winter bike. SS commuter.
Posts: 2,109
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
thanks terbenett, but if you look up a few posts before you, i list the build i chose to go with. i still appreciate the input and am glad i did not choose the neuvations though, at least for this application. what tires have you been using?
thanks for the reply
-leo
ldesfor1@ithaca is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:09 PM.