dwrudy

I'm new to Brevets. Just completed my first series (200-600). I’ve learned, among other things, that I’m not a good navigator. What GPS systems do you recommend? I just need the navigation system, not the heart rate and cadence. I just don’t want to get lost!

Thanks

mattm

I wouldn't put too much faith in GPS units - not so much in terms of accuracy, but in terms of battery life. will a GPS unit stay on for a 30-40 hour 600k? i think they run for maybe 15 hours or so.. but i hear that the Garmin 705 has a longer battery life than previous models.

i've ridden with people that had a garmin 305 (i think), and towards the end of the ride it went haywire and was beeping randomly - not helpful! of course they can be helpful in some situations too, but this was my experience.

i too get lost, but i think that's just a part of brevet riding. i don't have a car, so pre-driving the route isn't an option for me. instead i just use Google Maps to preview routes & also study the cue sheet.

kraxmel

I plan to use my Garmin 305 on all my brevets. You can pick up a USB charger that runs off AA batteries and run the gps with that plugged in. I figure using that setup (and enough AA batteries), I'll be able to ride just about any length ride (unless there is a limitation on distance).

prestonjb

I used a Garmin GPSMAP76 CSX and all of the bunk above shows no skill with modern tools.

Moving from the flint of a q-sheet up to butane lighters of a GPS simply shows that you are hanging around with people who don't know how to use their modern tools either.

Second while kraxmel has a fix for the 305, the problem with the 305 is you can't upload the detailed road maps such as City Navigator NT and be able to see "real" roads.

Now back to battery... The Vista or GPSMAP series both use AA batteries that will run depending on backlight and such from 10 to 20 hours (on two AAs).

When I did PBP what I did was take a bento box and place an 8-pack of high-amp-hour AAs to get a 12V battery pack and then wired that to the GPS with a car-kit cable. WIth me only turning the GPS off when I stopped for meals or sleep, the entire system ran for 81 hours... And even for a 600k just carring two sets of AAs in your back pocket is all ya need.

Also the GPS is a tool like a Q-Sheet (one could try to memorize the entire route and toss the paper too).... So I carry the Q-Sheet with me as backup...

The best thing is once you get skilled at (reading a Q)... Uh I mean programming and reading your GPS, then you will find it saves time. An auto-navigating GPS like the Vista C, GPSMAP or even the Edge 605/705 will tell you where to turn before you get there. This pays HUGE benifits in the dark where it will not only beep before the turn... It shows you a close up of what the turn looks like (left, right, "Y", sharp left, u-turn etc). And this saves a TON of time if you come into a small town or such with several turns... So you won't have to slow and check with your helmet light each street sign...

Also when you do go off course the "breadcrumbs" will help you find your way backwards until you get straight again...

But I will for sure say that there is a learning curve. Esp for the old-skool riders who are use to paper maps and paper Q-sheets. And at first you are better off relying on the Q and use the GPS as a backup.. and then ween yourself off of the Q and onto the GPS... Then eventually the GPS becomes the tool you will always keep on your bike.

BTW here is a good site from a friend of mine that explains a lot about setting up an auto-navigation Garmin GPS...

https://www.bike4one.com/general/scout.htm

prestonjb

Oh... Also BTW... Like GOOGLING... If you are going to create your auto-routes on the GPS you have to "map them out" which is very much the same as googling the route to learn it.. And actually probalby more intense as you are having to Draw in the way-points to make the auto route!!!

supcom

I use a Garmin Legend for navigation and it works fine for randonneuring. I can easily ride a 400K brevet from start to finish on one set of alkaline batteries. For a 600K, I'll replace the batteries at one of the controls, but that's no big deal.

The cycling-specific GPS units (Garmin Edge) do not have replaceable batteries, so using these for long distance requires connecting an external battery pack.

Using a Garmin GPS for navigation does require that you purchase the City Navigator mapset (~$100) in addition to the basic unit.

Delorme has a new GPS that comes with maps that looks interesting. If I didn't already have the Legend, I'd look at this unit pretty closely.

Keep in mind that for the GPS to be a real benefit, you need to have a good route programmed into it. this can be trickier than you might think since the routing algorithm may have different ideas about the best way to get from point A to B.

thebulls

The Garmin X05 just do not seem suitable to randonneuring because extending their battery life adequately requires various lash-ups, and because even the most advanced model does not document how to have it auto-route.

I've posted the following to the Google Randon group, but perhaps it would be appreciated here.

The settings below are based on 10000+ miles of riding brevets with a Garmin GPS. They work pretty well, nearly all the time. But they still occasionally come up with novel approaches to brevet riding, particularly if you were in a hurry when you put the route into the mapping software, MapSource. Thus, the single most important thing to know about using your GPS is:

YOU STILL NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE CUE SHEET.

Follow along the cue sheet as you ride. When the GPS tells you to turn, check the cue sheet to make sure it told you to turn, too. Then you'll avoid wrong turns, and you'll have some idea where you are on the cue sheet if the batteries die.

These are the GPS Settings that I've settled on after more than 10000 miles of riding with a Garmin eTrex Vista Cx GPS, including BMB and PBP. These settings seem to work well in places where I've ridden my bike in Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, New York, Quebec, France, and England. Maybe other states have road-building quirks that would make these settings suboptimal.

For me, almost the whole point of buying a GPS is to use it in "AutoRoute" or "Follow Road" mode and have it tell me where to turn to stay on the route specified by the cue sheet. Having it in "Direct" or "Off Road" mode is little better than just riding with the cue sheet and no GPS, since there is nothing to tell you that you missed a turn. On twisty roads, the straight line that it paints between where you are and the next viapoint is unlikely to be in the same direction you're riding. It could even be pointing almost the opposite way.

What kind of GPS and software to buy?

By the time you read this, it may be out of date, so take it with a grain of salt. Garmin is currently the dominant GPS manufacturer for non-automobile use. While others are finally starting to make GPS's that might be suitable for randonneuring, you will have a little more difficulty in getting up to speed on them because of the lack of other experienced randonneur users.

For randonneuring, you need a GPS that has as small a form-factor and weight as possible, is easy to see, that can Autoroute, and that can easily be kept running for multiple days. Right now, the eTrex Vista HCx seems like the best bet for doing all that. The Vista screen is supposedly optimized for reading in bright sunlight -- I find it easier to read than the 60's or 76's screen. Plus the form factor and weight are smaller and the battery life is longer than the 60's or 76's. You can easily change the batteries on the Vista while continuing to ride. The HCx has the latest antenna technology, which makes it work better in cities and forests and under overhangs. It has a built-in altimiter that supposedly makes it more accurate than just triangulating off satellites for altitude. It has a built-in compass, which seems like it could be handy if you ever lose satellite lock, e.g. when hiking.

By contrast, if you buy one of Garmin's cycling-specific GPS's (305 to 705), they come with a built-in battery that makes riding for multiple days problematic and most of these don't seem to know how to autoroute.

To "Autoroute," you need software on the PC that matches up with your GPS, so that implies (most easily) Garmin software. MapSource is the overall program, and inside it you need mapping software. The current version of the US mapping software is City Navigator North America NT version 9. If you want to be able to look at route profiles, the only way I've found to do this is to buy the Garmin Topo USA software. You make the route in City Navigator and then switch to the topo maps and look at the profile. You don't otherwise need topo maps for randonneuring purposes. So: Not strictly necessary, but nice.

Setting to use in MapSource:

The philosophy behind the settings below is to tell MapSource you're on a really fast bicycle and are indifferent between riding highways or byways. Then you set enough viapoints into the actual route that it forces MapSource to autoroute you where you actually want to go.

Edit->Preferences->Routing
Use Auto-Routing
Vehicle Type: Bicycle
Try to Avoid: Toll Roads, Carpool Lanes
Calculation Style: Faster Time
Road Selection: Halfway between Prefer Minor Roads and Prefer Highways
Driving Speeds: Default


Some things that are not entirely obvious in making a route in MapSource

I make waypoints for the crucial locations (start/end, controls, springs, big climbs, summits). These can be made on the fly while you're making the route, you don't have to make a bunch of waypoints first and then add them to the route.

So make a waypoint for the start/end control. I make the symbol on controls a bicycle. Right click on the waypoint and select "Begin Route". Now follow the cue sheet and click at the turns. After each click, you'll need to scroll the screen around to make sure that MapSource didn't find a "better" way to get to the turn than the cue sheet's way. If it did, click Ctrl-Z to undo the point and then click on the road just after MapSource's wrong turn. This should force MapSource not to take the wrong turn. Now click where the cue sheet says to turn and check that MapSource did it right, this time. If not, undo the point and go stick a point after MapSource's next wrong turn. Keep doing this until MapSource correctly autoroutes the segment. Repeat for the next cue .... If you find out later that a route is taking the wrong way, select the routing tool, right-click on the route, and click on "Insert New Section". Pull the pointer to where you want to insist that the route goes and click there. Check that the route now goes where you want.

If you want to add a WayPoint (like the next control), just click on the WayPoint tool button and click where you want the waypoint to be. Give the WayPoint its name, maybe pick a symbol, decide if you want it to be a "Proximity Waypoint" (if you're not sure exactly where it is, then setting it as a Proximity Waypoint let's you put a circle around the waypoint and the GPS will alert you as you enter and exit the circle -- but Garmin only thinks you could ever possibly need a ridiculously small number of proximity waypoints, maybe 15). Click on OK. Click on the Route Tool button. Now right-click on the Waypoint and select "Add to Route". Keep on truckin'

I usually start a new route at each control, unless there is a segment with very few turns between controls. As I'm coming in to the control, I'll tell the GPS to start navigating the next route so it's ready to go by the time I'm done with the control. I give the routes sequential names like "1Start to CtrlAirmont" "2CtrlAirmont to CtrlShepSweet", etc. The GPS won't show you the whole name, but enough to figure out which one you need.

A problem occurs when the cue sheet wants to take you off road (e.g. onto bike path, or a bit of sidewalk between cul de sacs, etc.). You'll have to end your route at this point and start a new route. If you don't, then the GPS will try to route you up to the start of the bike path, and then route you on whatever roads are necessary to get you to the end of the bike path, thereby adding plenty of bonus miles. You may want to set a proximity waypoint at the start of the route that is departing the bike path so that the GPS will beep at you and display a message to help ensure that you notice that point instead of crusing on another mile down the bike path. On a really long bike path section, it could be worth making a "Direct Route" sequence of points (if you know where the bike path actually goes -- it won't likely be on the map), and then switch the GPS into "Off Road" to navigate that section.

If you set more than 50 points into a route, then the GPS will _not_ be able to calculate the route in autoroute mode. So as soon as you see you're getting close to 50 points in a route, stop by pressing the Esc key and start a new route. I usually try to stop at 45 so that I can add more waypoints later if I need to add information or correct an auto-routing error that I didn't notice as I made the route.

I like to know where the "big" climbs are and how long they'll go on. Once you've got your routes set up, you can use Garmin's USTopo to look at the profile of the route, and then set waypoints that tell you how long and how high you're going to climb, and where the summit is.

Solving two little MapSource problems:

Sometimes you want to select a waypoint, but no matter what you do, MapSource gives you options to do with selecting the route. Go to the Waypoint tab, click on the waypoint and click on "Show on Map". Go up to the "Select Map Scale" and set it to 80 feet. You'll be able to select your waypoint.

Sometimes you want to select a route (for example,to extend it) but you're finding it difficult to do so. Again, set the scale to 80 feet, and right-click on the route close to its end, but not at the end. You can usually get a menu that will have an "Extend Route" selection.


Downloading to the GPS:

You'll need to select the maps around your route (highlight all the routes and right click to get the menu option for Select Maps around Route). For that matter, check for any points where the route goes close to the edge of a map. Select the Map tool button and click on the map that hasn't been selected. I've occasionally had routes that MapSource thought stayed in a given map, but then the route went off the map into never-never land.

Don't forget to download everything to your GPS. After the ride, upload from GPS and save it with an appropriate name.

And if you make any changes to anything in MapSource, you have to download everything again. You can't just download a new map, because it seems to wipe out what is there.

For that matter, having made sure that there is nothing in the GPS that you care about (if not, upload it first), and before you download from MapSource, go to the "Trip Computer" page on the GPS, click the button that gives you the sub-menu, click on Reset, then Select All, and reset the whole GPS. That way you know there's nothing in it left over to confuse you from a prior ride, and you also know that the only stuff that will be in it is whatever you are currently downloading. So make sure to download everything you need.


Settings in the GPS:

As mentioned above, I have an eTrex Vista CX. It has built-in altimiter and compass (I thought this might be useful for hiking, when I might lose satellites more often). You can add memory, so I put in a 1/2 gigabyte. I think the software settings are pretty similar between the Garmin models that do autorouting.

The most crucial settings are the Routing settings. So click the Setup icon then the Routing icon.

Guidance Method: Follow Road
Follow Road Method: Faster Time (just like in MapSource)
Next Turn Pop-Up: On (that's the whole point of this whole exercise)

Now select the little button at the bottom of the screen labeled "Follow Road Options"

Off Route Recalculation: Prompted (otherwise, when you miss a turn, it just recalculates without saying anything, and it'll get you back on route, but you've just violated the rule about "if you go off-route, then you must return at the point where you went off-route" -- further, you might miss a secret control, then ride the remaining 500k of your 600k, through hellish heat, torrential downpours, biblical insect plagues, etc. only to find out you DNQ'd back at the 100K secret control.)

Calculation method: Best Route (I don't know how much difference this makes).

Calculate Routes for: Bicycle (if you set it for car while doing some errands in town, then you'll get some really weird routing on your next brevet. Then even when you eventually figure out that the GPS has become flaky on this brevet because you forget ot reset it back to bicycle, and you do so, you still get weird routing. That's because with some of the settings, you have to switch the GPS off and back on for it to modify its behavior.)

Avoid: Toll Roads Unpaved Roads (unless the brevet is using them) Carpool Lanes


OK, that's it for Routing settings. Other settings don't seem to matter as much.

In "System Setup" I'll set it for "Battery Saver" but then the next time I go to use the GPS it seems to come up in "Normal" So I only occasionally bother to change it back to "Battery Saver" and even then, the batteries still seem to run out way faster than Garmin says they should. I have WAAS set to disabled to help the batteries last longer. I usually just use the Alkaline batteries that you can get nearly anywhere. On short, local rides I'll use rechargeables, but they don't seem to last quite as long.

On "Page Sequence", I only have "Trip Computer", "Map" and "Active Route". This makes it easy to flip to the page I want. The only other thing I look at is the altimiter, but that's just on interminable climbs when I want to know how close I've gotten to the top.

I have the altimiter set to "Auto Calibration" and Barometer Mode set to "Variable Elevation."

Next, for some reason Garmin has setting that you don't set in the Settings icon. Specifically, go back to the Main Menu screen and click the Tracks icon and then click Setup. I set "Wrap when Full" on. For Record Method, I use "Auto" and set the Interval to "Most Often". I set it this way because it creates tracks that seem to have "enough" points to accurately characterize the ride without having so many points that when you upload to MotionBased, it refuses to upload because it says there are too many track points (though you can filter a track in MapSource to reduce the number of points).

Make sure that in the "Data Card Setup" button at the bottom of the screen you set "Log Track to Data Card" to "on".


Using the GPS:

If you used the GPS in the car on "Car" setting, you'll need to set it to "Bicycle" in the routing setup, and then you must switch off and on. If you forget to do this, you'll sometimes find the GPS routing you strangely off route.

If you had the GPS on while driving to the start of the brevet, or you went for a little toodle round the parking lot before the brevet, then you may want to go to the "Trip Computer" screen, bring up the sub-menu, and click Reset. DO NOT click "Select All" because this will delete everything and turn your GPS into something that will only track your ride--probably not worth carrying. The stuff it has selected by default is the stuff you want to be Resetting. Click "Apply"

Next, go to the Main Menu, toggle down to the Routes icon, select it, then toggle to the first route that you want and select it, then click on Navigate. It'll display the "Calculating" icon and eventually beep at you to tell you it's ready.

While I'm riding, I usually have the Map page displayed so I can see what's coming up. Sometimes the GPS will pop up a "turn coming" screen and it's hard to tell exactly where to turn. This'll get better with experience -- but even today, I made a turn a half a block too early. It displays the "turn coming" screen for too long after you've made the turn (why can't it tell, it's got a built-in compass, so it knows I've turned) and if you're doing a "QR" "QL" sequence then it doesn't get the QL part up fast enough for you to get over in time. Oh, well, it'll display "Off Route. Recalculate?" and you say "No" and do a U-turn and get back on route.

When you get to the end of a route, you'd think that the GPS would flash its screen, beep at you, maybe fire off some firecrackers to tell you "We're Here!!!!" No, it just stops routing and assumes you're smart enough to recognize at 3 am that you've arrived at an unlit control in the middle of nowhere. You could set a proximity waypoint, but there are a limited number available.

Another little gotcha -- you're riding at 45 miles an hour down a hill, trying to keep an eye on the road as well as on the @!#%'ing motorist who thinks that a foot of clearance is plenty. About half a mile later, you notice that the map page isn't showing the purple line that shows you're on route, and the distance to the next turn is rising. Hey, you missed the indicator that a turn was coming, and you missed the indicator that said you were off route, do you want to recalculate. You turn around and suddenly the GPS shows a different distance to the next turn. Whatever! You need to ride back to the turn you missed, and all will probably be groovy. Or you may need to recaculate the route.

Sometimes the GPS gets so confused that the only way to restore its intelligence is to tell it to stop navigating and then switch it off and on.

prestonjb

Bottom line. Know thy tools...

A sonic screwdriver is better than flints and stones but only if you know the "make sparks" settings.

BTW I do believe the (6 or 7)05 can be made to work and using external packs is a choice (IMHO I use a pack on long rides because I don't want to open the GPS during the ride. HINT: only the 605/705 are autorouting.... Givaway? Any Garmin that has a color screen is autorouting

Also while the other Garmin units may show some more routing junk in their manuals they still don't go into a lot of the subtle stuff such as when creating a auto route you can only have a max of 50 vias so be very selective (or break your route into multiple routes .... You say above however also in a BREVET situation if you break up the course into individual routes PER CONTROLS then you will not have as much worry about running out of space...

Oh and AUTO-ROUTING does not REQUIRE a PC but it is very painful to enter a route on the gps alone!

Note that auto-routing in Garmin can get lost if you stop/reset the routing as it may want to take you back to the start of the route to get started again... one way to get around this is to copy the route (it is a menu option in the gps route screen) and then delete all points up to your current position and then use this new abbreviated route.

I've not had to reset the GPS but I've done stop-navigating on occasion...

dwrudy

Thanks for the advice!

David

dwrudy

I've been looking at the various GPS units discussed in the thread. What is the diference between the Garmin Legend, the Garmin Vista? Is a color screen necessary or will the grey-tone due?

Thanks

David

donrhummy

I use the Garmin eTrex Legend cX and it's a great value!

Cost: $143 at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-eTrex-L.../dp/B000CSSHG4
Bike mount is $14: https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-Bicycle...ce_ai_-2_3_tit

Nav: has turn-by-turn directions, saves your ride info, is in color
Maps: color maps, has SD card slot so You can load on a ton of maps
Batteries: takes AA batteries and with regular ones, lasts 20-22 hours (I think Energizer makes some that last about 30 hours but they cost twice as much)

It's MUCH. MUCH cheaper than Garmin's Edge 605 (which is also color with mapping) which costs $400. Yes, it's about 2x as thick but it's a MUCH better value.

dwrudy

Thanks!

dwrudy

I decided on the Garmin Legend Hcx. I got it for $180.

Thanks for all the advice.

David

eAspenwood

I bought a 60csx which i use on my bike, motorcycle, car, and for hiking. Its a lot bigger than the 305, but I liked the big color screen and all the features. Also, i can upload City Navigator on it.

I used it on my last century on handlebar mounts. I brought a backup set of AA's, but didn't come close to needing them. I would say, though, if you are uber weight concious then u it might not be the right gadget for u.