TommyL

I thought I had all the kinks worked out when I started training for the upcoming brevet season, after riding a 200k last year with no saddle issues. I was and am using an Avatar Gel, and while I was certainly stiff after the 200k, I did not have sores and nothing was overly irritated.

Training this winter, I am almost longing for that stiffness again. It seems that I always come back from my long rides with a saddle sore or two, and some sensitive areas where there has been rubbing. The only differences I can think of are that (a) I have different pants on (Pearl Izumi attack shorts in the summer, Ibex knickers now) (b) an extra 600 miles or so onto the saddle, maybe it is starting to wear out, or (c) the cold weather has something to do with it.

Anyway, I don't want to give up on the saddle if it is just the pad in the knickers that is rubbing me the wrong way, and I certainly don't want to give up on the knickers if I need a new saddle.

Thoughts? Also, I'm considering trying out the shorts again for a comparison, but I would need a layer over the top and I am worried that a layer of sweatpants between the shorts and my saddle would compromise the experiment.

Thanks everybody, I will do my best to pepper this forum with questions as the season develops!

10 Wheels

Try some

TommyL

I used Chamois cream the other day, and it helped. But I'm still worried about making it past 200k the way things are right now.

Machka 

You've outgrown the gel saddle ... move on to something better.


My suggestion: a Brooks.

bmike

what . where is the rubbing / sore?
could be position, chamois, saddle.
i've used assos cream to good effect.
now i prefer lantiseptic for long rides. rode a 300k in the rain last summer - totally sold on the product.


history:
i can't wear ibex shorts for more than a century, on a good day. poor seam location.
and... i have an issue or 2 with the PI red 'chamois' pad. for ld rides i like the orange colored pad.

and, i too rode a specialized gel saddle (think it was the avatar) for a 600k. hated it. after 200 miles felt like i was riding on sandpaper.

i've been using brooks saddles for most riding, tried the specialized from my lbs. after 80 miles it started to hurt.

now:
i'm working my way up to riding a 200k in 'street' clothes. i rode several centuries last year on a brooks b17, ex officio boxer briefs, and breathable, hiking style shorts.

jcm

Sores are a result of friction. Friction is caused by heat and moisture. Reduce the friction and the sores will cease. I use Brooks saddles because they are slicker than any other saddle and thus are easier to compliment with riding wear. I don't have to consider the saddle.

I use cheapo Canari padded lycra shorts on any distances. The only time I experience any slight beginnings of irritation is in hot weather after 80 miles or so. If it's going to be hot, I apply a small amount of Neosporin in the petroleum jelly suspension - not the cream, which will migrate away from where you put it. Neosporin will kill the bacteria before it has a chance to get it there and cause inflammation.

Randochap

Seams and the edge of the chamois can abrade skin pretty badly.

I have some very good, top-of-the-line Sugoi shorts that worked well for two seasons and then started chafing badly last season. The culprit is the chamois edge, which is quite prominant and I presume it has now hardened enough to cause problems.

Certain saddles will cause issues depending on where parts of them line up with different shorts. Carry spare shorts and change every 200k or so. Also carry baby wipes and keep clean.

I use Body Glide for lubrication.

jcm

+1 on the chamois edge. I stopped using my Pearl Izumi tights for that reason.

Six jours

Most folks tend to report poor results with gel anything. Seems as though the gel simply moves out of the way, so now you've got pressure points plus gel pushing on other areas as well.

Of course, the fact that you once had fine results with it and now don't tends to lead away from that as the source of your troubles.

The obvious place to look is indeed the chamois/pad. And the obvious way to check is to switch back to the Pearli shorts for a while.

I personally have not found any synthetic pads to be as comfortable as real chamois. Seems to me that the synthetics wick chamois cream away from your skin, which doesn't help. But I don't know where to get quality shorts with real chamois any more. Kucharik still offers real chamois, but the general quality of their clothing is quite poor in my experience. I suppose a dedicated fellow could try ordering chamois from Kucharik and having them sewn into other brands of shorts. In fact, I think it may even be possible to send other brands of shorts into Kucharik for chamois replacement.

When I was racing in Europe many years ago, experienced riders would have expressed shock at the idea of using petroleum jelly in your shorts. The thinking was that you were creating a perfect environment for saddle boils. I do not honestly know if that is true, but I still react to the idea with a knee jerk. The "inside trick" was to use Noxema as a combination lubricant and anti-boil medication.

As far as Brooks, I find that there really is a "love them or hate them" situation. I personally really like the company, the look, the tradition... but not the saddles. I just can't get comfortable with them, which seems to upset some of the harder-core supporters. So while I agree they are always worth trying, they are not a guarantee. I have found satisfaction with the leather saddles made by Selle-Anatomica, but that is an epensive experiment.

I think Bmike is on an interesting tangent. Randonneurs generally did not begin using padded shorts until the late sixties. Until then, rides up to and including Paris-Brest-Paris were ridden in regular cloth shorts. So perhaps the chamois/synthetic pads are not quite as critical as we have been thinking...

Richard Cranium

I don't speak that language. But if you are getting saddle sores, maybe your problem is that you won't or can't wash yourself properly.

Rubbing make things sore, bacteria makes saddle sores.

Randochap

Looking at historical photos from PBP, from its earliest days right through the 60s, doesn't support that contention.

TommyL

Thanks for the responses, everybody!

In my original post, I had typed "Also, can we please not make this about Brooks?" But then I deleted it. I've tried the Brooks, didn't work for me, and the topic has been beat to death on the forums.

The Anatomica, however, may be something I need to try. First I will see test the shorts.

So tomorrow I want to take out my PI shorts (orange pad), but it snowed here today. Can I wear sweats over the PI shorts and not compromise my experiment?

Randochap

What do you mean by "sweats?" Do you mean like those baggy cotton things? If you do, then that would be a major compromise. Don't wear those for cycling.

If you mean proper fitting cycling tights, then I'd say go ahead, but remember you have an extra layer. Speaking of extra layers, sometimes wearing two pairs of shorts can add comfort, as friction between the two shorts cuts down on friction next to the skin.

I have a very thin "liner short" w/ chamois I use under winter tights and occasionally as a base under 2nd shorts.

Saddle height should be tweaked (lowered) to accomodate extra layers.

khearn

I've been wondering about that lately, too. When I started riding in the early 80's, all shorts had leather chamois, and they worked. I never had saddle sores or chafing. Maybe a little roughness at the beginning of a ride if the chamois was stiff, but it softened up as soon as I'd start to sweat a bit. Now all you can find is synthetic. I just bought a new pair of Pearl Izumi Attack Shorts, and after a 35 mile ride I was in the shower and noticed parts that had been rubbed a little raw. There is just too much padding and it keeps pressure where I don't need pressure. That never happened with the old leather shorts, because there wasn't as much padding, just the leather.

Dag nabbit, we can still find old-fashioned leather saddles, how about old-fashioned leather chamois? Hello, Brooks? How about getting into the shorts business?

CliftonGK1

The term "saddle sores" refers to a range of problems from friction induced abrasions due to things like ill-fitted shorts or overly bulky chamois padding, to folliculitis (infected hair follicles), to full-on dermal ulcerations. It's not just a specific issue related to poor hygiene, (although, that could be a contributing factor).

Elderberry

A Brooks may not be the answer for you, but I can say that, having done 100 km rides on both a moderately padded stock Schwinn saddle and a relatively new B-17, the latter beat out the former in a pretty big way.

bobbycorno

...and something better than PI shorts would help too. Assos F1 Mille's worked well for me before I got 'bent. Riding a 'bent let me finish the RM1200 last summer w/ nothing worse than sore legs. And I was solidly middle of the pack, same as always.

SP
Bend, OR
RUSA 3481

Six jours

You seem to get some kind of odd enjoyment from following me around BF and telling me that I'm wrong, on even the least important points. I don't care for it, especially considering that your observations are often incorrect. It is true that riders in the early years of PBP wore standard cycling shorts. That is because in its earliest years PBP was a sanctioned professional race. By the late 50s the event had become "randonneurs only", which is around the same time period we begin to see European randonneurs wearing standard bike shorts. I have seen many photographs of PBP riders wearing walking shorts in the fifties, however, including top riders such as Roger Baumann (pictured in walking shorts at the finish of the 1956 PBP, page 44 of Bicycle Quarterly volume 6 number 1) Daniel Rebour (pictured in walking shorts at the start of the 1951 PBP, page 5 of Bicycle Quarterly volume 2 number 4) and Gilbert Espinasse, pictured in walking shorts during the 1956 PBP, page 6 of Bicycle Quarterly volume 1 number 2). Aside from PBP, even a cursory review of photographs of randonneurs prior to 1960 demonstrates that walking shorts were the standard.

I would appreciate it if you would simply not reply to my posts unless you have something genuinely valuable -- and fact-checked -- to add.

Six jours

This has been my experience as well. The cloth chamois just seem more abrasive than the leather. It's a shame we keep discarding things that work in favor of things that are new...

The Smokester

I agree with the possibility that it may be the chamois in your shorts. I have had expensive models that were wonderful (Specialized) and others that ripped me a new one (Descente) in less than 40 miles. Sometimes one is just unlucky because all it takes is a seam slightly out of place on one small area (through poor manufacture or wear) or a poor trimming of the chamois.

Also, I second the possibility that a Selle Anatomica saddle mght be an alternative to the Avatar. The Avatar may be exacerbating the situation, but if you are getting raw sores I would bet on the clothing first. To get either right will take some experimentation to see what suits you.

Carbonfiberboy 

I have about eight different short types to choose from, mostly from different manufacturers or at least different models. I switch between them. Some are old and can only be used at home or the back of the line. My point is that's how you figure out what works for you. You probably wear out a couple pairs a year, so just vary what you buy. Some will only be 50 mile shorts, some will be for ld. I find that certain saddles are best with certain shorts, so there's that, too.

It does sound like RC might have a point as you say "the way things are right now." So try washing your a** with dandruff shampoo. Tegrin works for me. Leave it on while you finish your shower. And of course, shower immediately after. And try Bag Balm. And put some in a film can to take with you to refresh every 100 miles or less. When your saddle is greasy to the touch, you've got enough on. Disgusting, isn't it?

bmike

i've used bag balm, burts bees diaper creme, assos, petroleum gel, etc.

bag balm may work for you... along with other magic potions and gels... but i've become a true believer in lantiseptic.

it's designed for adult diaper rash and bedsores - hospital grade stuff. be sure to wear a rubber glove when applying - or you'll be washing your hands forever.

TommyL

Thanks folks. I wish it was as simple as going out and buying shorts until I find what works. Right now I only own the knickers and the PI shorts- I don't have the cash to spend willy nilly. Of course I wash the pants after every use, and I shower when I get home, but I will try to be even more vigilant. The sores have been starting on my 50 mile + rides, and going away after a day or two. They're not major, but they're there, and that's enough to worry me.

I'll stick with what I've got for now, and as my mileage increases over this month, I will consider trying a Sella Anatomica as well. New pants will be the last resort, I think.

jcm

Anatomica makes a very good saddle. If you are a light rider, they can be perfect. If you are a heavy rider, they can be a bit of a challenge to adjust once they begin to stretch and form. Frequent tensioning may be required. I suggest you not get the pre-waterproofed version. Waterproofed leather is little different from any common synthetic - it doesn't wick away moisture.

In the mean time, as you figure out what to, use the Neosporin. After your showers and before you ride. The amount required is miniscule. A dab less than the size of a pencil eraser goes a long way, leaving no slathered up feeling at all. That would be gross.

Randochap

You appear to have a rather inflated view of your own importance. I can assure you I have zero interest in "following" you anywhere. If I was interested in your poorly reasoned arguments I would challenge you on your views on helmets. To claim I have stalked you is ludicrous and unfounded. I have noticed how you worry a subject like a dog with a bone.

As it happens, I agree with you on some things -- and have concurred within this LD section of BF. That doesn't mean I'm prepared to become your lap dog ... or bloodhound when I disagree.

... I'm more than familiar with the history of randonneuring and PBP. Yes, some riders wore ordinary shorts. Still do. But I maintain the practice has never been as common as you infer. You can refer to BQ (yes, I have the whole library on my bookshelves) and I can refer to other magazines and books in my library, as well as other collections of PBP photos, which I interpret as illustrating and supporting my belief.

To use your excuse:

I will continue to comment on anything I see fit. I base my "facts" on experience or research, preferring the former, of which I have more than 40 years and a decade in the bike biz. Sometimes I'm wrong and more than willing to concede to someone with better info. However, this is a "forum." If you don't like contrary opinions -- right or wrong -- maybe just write on your own computer, so you can agree with yourself.