smovlov

Ive been having some knee pains come up around mile 17 to 20 on my 35 mile training rides. Usually it is around the top portion to the inside of my patella. I'm not a masher, I spin around 80 to 100 rarely in the 70s. I'm also a toes down rider and have my seat plenty high. Ive tried lowering my seat but that seemed to aggravate the pain more. I'm wondering if by using clips and straps, that is allowing my knee to do things it shouldn't. This goes against all my belief that "if my knee goes where it wants, it wont hurt." Its either improper fit or overuse. I'm not sure yet.

I did have an overuse injury a while ago. I was sick for 2 or 3 weeks with no mileage (before that i was doing around 20 to 30 mile rides twice a week). Then as I got better I went out and did a metric that screwed up my knees real bad. I don't know how long it will take to recover or if I ever will. I think I'm rambling so do you think its time to switch to clipless? Any suggestions? Thanks!

unterhausen

I'm not really up on all the different forms of knee pain. My pain goes away with a cho-pat strap, unfortunately I can't figure out how to get the strap to work with tights. I also was helped going to Speedplay X2 pedals. They are hard to get used to, but did fix things a little. I think I need to use wedges, haven't gotten around to that yet.

ericgu

You need to find somebody in your area who can do a good bike fit, preferably a physical therapist. The knees are the weak link in the whole system, so any problems in fit will usually show up there first.

positron

that's not a very long distance, suggesting that you have other issues causing your pain. I don't think clipless will help you in this situation, and may even do some harm. I would second the idea that bike fit may be the root of the problem....

visiondr

You really should see someone who knows something about knees. Don't mess around with such a critical part of your body by trying to diagnose and fix the problem yourself. As you've said, you've had overuse knee injuries in the past. See an orthopedic surgeon or even your GP/Internist to get those knees looked at. Pain in that part of the joint can be a sign of something serious.
Just my $0.02

khearn

+1 on visiondr. Back when I was racing, 20 years ago, I had a teammate who read in a magazine that you should adjust your cleats to have toe-in, so he did. He was off the bike for over a year as a result of the knee problems that gave him. Knees don't heal very well, it's very important not to screw them up in the first place. If they're hurting consistently, don't mess around asking a bunch of amateurs on the internet, go see a pro.

smovlov

My uncle is an ortho. He usually checks them to see if they have fluid in them. I might have to get more in depth with him about it. Lately its been a weird tightness along the inner top. They don't hurt all the time. I just got done with 7 miles with no pain whatsoever.

The only issue i have with getting a bike fit is I don't want to throw good money at someone that just knows say the fit kit.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm looking forward to getting this worked out and start getting in some miles. Ill talk to my uncle and see if he can recommended anyone. Anyone know someone in the FL area that's good? What kind of price should I look for? Thanks all again!

khearn

What's a cho-pat strap?

Richard Cranium

You're toast.

You have a "chronic" injury. In your current state, there is no way to diagnose it's cause, nor attempt any corrective actions. In other words, you can't continue to cycle to "see if its going to hurt."

Here's the deal, you need professional help, but you can use me - cause its free.

Go find a place you can use a "spin trainer." Go ride the trainer for at least 30 minutes, without using drugs, without resistance either. When you can do that three times without pain, then you can start playing with pedals and bike fit.

Six jours

As others have pointed out, it's difficult-to-impossible to correctly diagnose a knee ailment online, let alone suggest an appropriate course of treatment. And it's be kind of foolish to follow the advice of strangers on the internet concerning such things.

As for the pedal question, I wonder whether you are using your clips and straps with slotted cleats or without. If you are using cleats, then they do need to be adjusted properly or injury will be the result. In that case, switching to clipless would be an improvement over continuing to ride with maladjusted cleats. If, however, your cleats are already adjusted correctly, or you are not using cleats at all, then pedals are unlikely to be your problem.

mitchel

I agree that a good bike fit is the best bet and pretty essential.
In the meantime, I do have one suggestion: I've had knee pain in some of the same locations as yours and found that my saddle was too far FORWARD. Have you tried sliding it back a couple of millimeters?
Like Richard Cranium suggested: go find a spin trainer. Actually, any spin bike at a gym (not an excercycle) is highly adjustable and can allow you to experience most of the variables without a wrench.

rekall

i had built myself up to the level where i did about 30 miles in a day... that was in september. i think i'm finally just about 99% recovered from the various injuries i incurred.

bike fit, bike fit, bike fit.
seat height, knee-over-pedal angle, crank length, wheelbase (distance between wheels, adjustable somewhat on most bikes in the rear dropout), handlebar height, reach to handlebars, ETC.
it's all important.

Carbonfiberboy 

You're right not to go to an LBS that will do a "fit kit." You want a professional bike fitter who is also a physiologist and does that as their sole business. They exist. Ask around. There's usually one or more in every large metropolitan area. It's very likely that you need to use clipless pedals with wedges under the cleats. Or something.

While you're looking, I recommend changing to riding "heels down," using the heel-on-pedal method of setting saddle height, changing to very good bike shoes like Sidis (road shoes in case you'll need wedges), and Look clipless pedals (wedges again). All these changes will help your cycling, even if they don't do anything for your knees. And they might. And do some of what RC suggests, too. Confine yourself to trainer or roller rides, zone 1, no spinning over 90, until you are pain free. Use your regular road bike. I think you could do that every day, but you'll see.

sloar 

go get your bike fitted by a pro, any little thing thats off can make you hurt. mine happened to be i needed shimms put inbetween my cleats and shoes. it can take a 1/4 inch for your seat to be wrong and it will make you hurt. i was having bad knee pains about 15 miles and had my bike pro fitted no more pain. i am a true believer of perfect fitting.

yeamac 

Stretch your muscles, including IT band. Simple solution, and its free. Personally, I'd try that first. Worked for me.

smovlov

Hey all. Ive been doing the 30 minute spins with no resistance like Mr. Cranium said. Ive done 2 trips, the first one I had a little discomfort in both knees. Almost like a soreness. Ive been stretching my legs, including my IT band. Today seemed to go well. I'm setting up an appointment with my uncle so he can check my knees.

Six jours, I'm not using slotted cleats but the tread on my shoe might be locking in, acting like a cleat. I'm going to get some flat soled shoes for the clips.

Anyone else have flat feet?

Six jours

The traditional way of fitting traditional cleats is to ride without cleats for a few hours. This leaves a mark on the shoe corresponding to your "natural" position, and the cleats are then nailed into position based upon that line. I would think that the rubber soles of your shoes would have accomplished essentially the same thing -- unless those soles have pronounced ridges, grooves, etc. that are forcing your feet into unnatural positions. So I still kind of doubt that shoes/pedals are your problem. I've certainly been wrong before, though!

Skeleton

I had a similar problem with both my knees about two years ago. It was a stabbing pain that would develop only after the first half hour of cycling. The pain was under and below the patella. This emerge a couple of months after buying a Cervelo R3, for which I began allot of hill climbing and hammering.

I tried various bike setups and riding styles (eg: higher cadence, less standing, etc). But the problem didn't go away. I sought the help of two physiotherapists, but still no relief. I stopped cycling for six months, then tried returning to cycling but only to have the pains re-emerge.

By chance I was in a running store and saw a product for sale - intended for runners. It is a thick velcro strap which is reinforced with a rubber liner, to stiffen it. The strap is wrapped around the knee, either above or below the knee cap. In my case I put it under the knee cap. It is advertised to give relief from those suffering from patella tendonitis. A bit of research lead me to learn that such a strap can sometimes push the patella a few millemeters into more favourable allignment.

It WORKED for me !!! Within three weeks the pain stopped altogether. I have been riding ALLOT for over a year - every day, year round. No problems.

As an aside, I have previously had problems with long distance running, giving me acheles tendonitis. Eventually I found a remedy for it two - a small foam insert which acts like an orthodics. So, I have learned that when a physical problem emerges a remedy is often available but it may take LOTS of experimentation to reveal it.

Keep trying various remedies - a solution always exists. But don't rely only on the advise of others; instead find your own way.

Salmosebago

My advice: Start with an ortho FIRST to make sure there is nothing wrong with the knee. If there IS something physically wrong you may do nothing but MAKE IT WORSE with more punishment. If you clear that hurdle I would then have a PT take a look at you while they put you through some exercises. They will be able to tell you if you are compensating for any physical issues; flat feet, pronation, weak hammies, etc. Then I would see about the bike fit.

Clear your physical hurdles first, then worry about the bike. Trust me, knee problems are no fun. Snapped my ACL skiing 2 years ago.

escii_35

The easy ones. I'm just about 40 with some replacement knee parts.

Wintertime riding:

Keep the knees covered and no hard riding.

Gear:

Sloppy pedals. Aka MTB froggers or very worn SPD's. More then a few folks have suggested froggers but it's a big invesment for multiple bikes.

Those strappy knee band things.

Fit:

Get a bike fit or keep tinkering on your own.

rekall

agreed on seeing an orthopaedist for a once-over and xrays to check for any alarming damage that may have occurred... but then see a RHEUMATOLOGIST about the joints giving you trouble. soft tissues are their gig. and talk to him/her about pain management and things like accupuncture until things are 'all better.'

tominator

1. It sounds like patella tendinitis so see a doc or a PT for help.I ride a lot and run the marathon every year and battled it for years until I finally figured it out. In the interim, the following will help.

2. A cho pat strap will help while you ride. Also a PT can show you how to tape your knee. The strap/tape keeps the patella in the right position so it can't maltrack. And it doesn't have to be a cho-pat, there's several others just like it that work well. I've had good luck with the cho pat and this one:

https://www.kneesupport.com/protec/protec-strap.htm

3. Clipless/clips: You can keep using clip in pedals but you want to make sure they have a high degree of float. I use Time MT pedals on my road bike. They're terrific. A city bike messenger clued me on to them. I've used the triangle cleat ones and SPD and the Time are better.

4. The strap will stop the patella tendinitis but the real cure is strengthening the inner and outer thigh muscles. Running and biking strengthen the quad but not the side to side muscles. These get weaker and weaker. My cure? Ice skating A LOT all winter. Roller blading works too. You can get elastic bands and do this as well. Look for the exercises on the internet.

These exercises and ice skating/roller blading will actually cure it because they strengthen the muscles which stabilize the patella. And then you won't even need the strap. I used to run with a strap for marathon training but after a winter of skating, I have no need.

smovlov

UPDATE: Well I quit riding up until a week or so ago. I'm starting out slowly. Only increasing mileage by about 10 percent weekly. Legs feel good. Right now I'm just taking it slow. Thanks for all the information. I had my uncle(orthopedic surgeon) look at my knees about 4 months ago. He said there was probably micro tears in the knee (I don't remember where). They would just take a while to heal. I still get a bit of pain every now and then but I don't think its anything out of the normal. I just try to take it easy. Thanks again all!

indigophox

Point about clips-and-straps letting your knees "do what they want": They don't. Pretty much any retention system, and to quite some extent bare platforms too, don't let your knees sit at their desired angle laterally, nor do they let you move your feet in and out (tread width) to counter this. You -likely- need either angled shims (which are far easier to get your hands on with clipless systems) or different tread width, or both. Anywhere that -actually- knows their stuff in terms of setting up clipless pedals (not most bike stores...) should be able to figure out lateral positioning and whether you're being forced into an unnatural position with regard to pronation or supination.

jhan

try speedplay frogs. I have bad knees from running, but no problem when I bike thanks to the frogs