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  1. #1
    Senior Member Daveyboy's Avatar
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    Brevet control closing times

    Not having ridden a brevet yet, I'm curious how the closing times of the controls are determined. Is it a standard amount of time for each brevet? I thought I read somewhere that they close them based on a certain amount of time after the official start time. And that that time is based on a certain minimum KMH. If that's so, it would seem pretty easy to calculate control closing times based on the distance to each control from the start?

    Or maybe it just printed on your brevet card?

  2. #2
    Gears? CliftonGK1's Avatar
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    Closing times are based on a minimum speed, which varies for the distance of the brevet. The open/close times will be printed on your brevet card as a number of hours from the start, not as actual clock times. i.e. - Start is 0:00. Your first control may be 0:50/1:20; meaning it opens 50 minutes after the start time, and closes 1h 20m after the start.
    A good cue sheet will also have the open/close times printed on there.

    I like to modify my cue sheet open/close times to real clock times, so when I'm tired I don't have to do math. I look at my watch and know if I'm on pace.
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    Randomhead
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    the closing time is printed on the brevet card. On a lot of courses, the first controle can be the most difficult to make because the rules don't really consider things like mountains or headwinds. It is a good idea to pay attention to that because there has been no opportunity to build up a cushion. I've heard there has been some discussion about allowing more flexibility in the controle closing times, at least for RUSA events.

    I finally dnf'd because of outlandish 30-40 mph headwinds. Still only missed the cutoff time by 10 minutes at the 70 mile mark. First time I even had to consider the closing times.

  4. #4
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Closing times are based on speed.

    For rides under 1000K (in other words, the 200K, 300K, 400K, and 600K), the minimum speed is 15 km/h.

    For the 1000K the minimum speed for the first 600K is 15 km/h and then the minimum speed drops to 13 km/h (I think).

    For the 1200K the minimum speed for the first 600K is 15 km/h, then the minimum speed drops to 13 km/h (I think) up to the 1000K point, and then it drops to 11 km/h (I think) for the last 200K.

    The actual clock closing times should be printed on your brevet card, but if it is not, you can calculate it ... and you can determine if what is printed there is accurate or not.

    For example, on the 100km audax ride Rowan and I did this past weekend, we rode into the control with about 2 minutes to spare according to the card. That struck me as odd because we were moving along quite well. A quick calculation determined that the card was 1 hour out ... it was calculated as though we started at 7 am when we actually started at 8 am. And on the Last Chance, there was one spot where the distance/time calculations were way out ... according to the card, we were supposed to cover something like 70 km in 2 hours. So it is a good idea to double check the times yourself ... you just never know.

    As for missing the closing time ... most rides will allow you to miss a control closing time somewhere in the middle of the ride, as long as you make it up by the next control. However, if you roll into a control 2 or 3 hours late, the control may be completely closed, or if someone is there, they may tell you you're out because you've got no chance of making up the distance by the next control. Whereas if you roll into a control 5 minutes late, they'll be more lenient because you've got a chance of getting to the next control in time.

    RUSA plays around with the control closing times a bit, I've noticed ... giving people extra time in certain places and less time in others, depending on the terrain. For me, that's very difficult to get my head around. I prefer sticking to the usual structure as described above (15 km/h minimum speed, etc.), and I haven't come across these time changes/flexibility on rides I've done in Canada, Australia, and France.

  5. #5
    Gears? CliftonGK1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    The actual clock closing times should be printed on your brevet card, but if it is not, you can calculate it ... and you can determine if what is printed there is accurate or not.
    I'll have to go back and look at last year's cards. The only ones that stick in my mind right now are the cards for my permanents, and the times on those are printed as "hours from start" not actual clock time since the start time may be different for everyone who rides the route.
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  6. #6
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    Machka says: "RUSA plays around with the control closing times a bit, I've noticed ... giving people extra time in certain places and less time in others, depending on the terrain. For me, that's very difficult to get my head around. I prefer sticking to the usual structure as described above (15 km/h minimum speed, etc.),"

    Huh? I've never seen any terrain adjustment on any RUSA ride. You can go to the RUSA website and use their control closing time calculator. It has no adjustment for terrain. The only place where I know of where there is flexibility is on a 1200K, the closing times can be set for a steady pace (like on the EM1240) or set to give "extra time" on the second 600 (like on BMB).

    I sure _wish_ that there was a terrain adjustment on some rides. The Gappity Gap permanent has more than 3600' of elevation gain in the first 33 miles, including a 1400' climb, and 1100' climb with significant chunks of 15% grade, and a 500' climb. Any lack of focus and determination will fail to yield the desired outcome.

    Nick

  7. #7
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    There was a terrain adjustment on the Gold Rush which really threw me off. And I think there might have been on that Endless Hills 1200 (or whatever it was called). I don't know about the shorter rides.

    But as far as I know, RUSA is the only one that does these time adjustments. The 1200s I've done in other countries stick to the standard timings.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure Machka's correct on the adjustments. Sometimes the terrain is really extreme and if they don't do that everyone who is pushing the time limits will automatically DNF when they normally wouldn't. I've never had to deal with closing times with the exception of PBP back in 03 when I had a some major mechanical problems. I left Brest two hrs after the control officially closed and still had plenty of time to make it to the next control before it closed.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  9. #9
    Gears? CliftonGK1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebulls View Post
    I sure _wish_ that there was a terrain adjustment on some rides. The Gappity Gap permanent has more than 3600' of elevation gain in the first 33 miles, including a 1400' climb, and 1100' climb with significant chunks of 15% grade, and a 500' climb. Any lack of focus and determination will fail to yield the desired outcome.

    Nick
    There's a 600 up here that covers the RAMROD route (11,000' in 150mi), then continues with Windy Ridge (St. Helens), White Pass, Chinook Pass, Cayuse Pass (all between 4000' - 5000'), and finishes off with the climb to Sunrise. I think last year the attrition rate was close to 50%; I'm sure people were wishing for terrain modifiers on that ride, too.
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    Senior Member skiffrun's Avatar
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    Rather than thinking one has the right speeds, why not go to a source? The following are from the "RBA page" within the RUSA site.

    RUSA 1200km time calc page: http://www.rusa.org/octime_rm.html (this one shows avg speeds -- I hope they are correct)

    ACP calculator: http://www.rusa.org/octime_acp.html (no avg speeds shown)

    RUSA sanctioned calculator: http://www.rusa.org/octime_rusa.html

    Permanent calculator: http://www.rusa.org/octime_perm.html (this one shows avg speed / per day distances)

  11. #11
    Wookie Fred chewybrian's Avatar
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    These ideas of letting you slide if you are late, or giving you time for hills seem odd to me. I've not seen them, but I can see the rationale for climbing time.

    If it were up to me, I'd set the control cutoffs at about 17 mph from the end and work back to the start. Let the rider to decide when to push or rest. If you want sleep or have a breakdown, you could ride a 17 pace, or more, to the finish if needed. Why cut people off at a 10 mph pace when anyone (even me!) can ride faster than that?

    Example: A steady plodder like me can work up a 4 or 5 hour cushion on the first day of a 600k, and maybe catch a few hours of sleep. But, why not take an 8 hour break, and make 4 hours back on the second day, if that's the way you want to play it? As long as the rider has a realistic, even a long shot to finish, I'd give them every chance.
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    Senior Member skiffrun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chewybrian View Post
    . . . If it were up to me, I'd set the control cutoffs at about 17 mph from the end and work back to the start. Let the rider to decide when to push or rest. If you want sleep or have a breakdown, you could ride a 17 pace, or more, to the finish if needed. . . .
    Two comments:

    1. You obviously never met Adrian Hands. Nor Dr. Codfish (I've not met the good doctor, but I gather he is not fast).

    2. Location "East Florida". I'm not sure where "East" Florida is, but I'm pretty sure, if within the boundaries of the State of Florida, that there isn't any "terrain" there. "Terrain" can knock 2, 3, or even more off one's avg mph.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chewybrian View Post
    ...If it were up to me, I'd set the control cutoffs at about 17 mph from the end and work back to the start. Let the rider to decide when to push or rest. If you want sleep or have a breakdown, you could ride a 17 pace, or more, to the finish if needed. Why cut people off at a 10 mph pace when anyone (even me!) can ride faster than that?
    First off, it's not a 10mph pace, it's a little over an 8mph pace. Have you done a 1200k? The overall average time includes all your off the bike time. That includes sleeping, eating, going to the bathroom, BS'ing etc. If you average 17mph on a 1200k brevet you are going to finish somewhere around 43-44hrs. That would put you in the fastest 5% of all riders. If it was so easy to average 8mph there wouldn't be so many DNF's...
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  14. #14
    Wookie Fred chewybrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiffrun View Post
    Two comments:

    1. You obviously never met Adrian Hands. Nor Dr. Codfish (I've not met the good doctor, but I gather he is not fast).

    2. Location "East Florida". I'm not sure where "East" Florida is, but I'm pretty sure, if within the boundaries of the State of Florida, that there isn't any "terrain" there. "Terrain" can knock 2, 3, or even more off one's avg mph.
    You'd have to expand on either point for me to see how you are responding to what I said.

    If the folks you reference are slow, them I am simply all for giving them every chance. Let them ride on until there is no realistic shot to finish. If you mean they can't hit 10 mph, ever, then they can't finish anyway.

    On the second point, I rarely face hills around here, but I never said I did. I only said that I can see the rationale for allowing a slower pace on sections of a brevet where you might have to climb hard (for some guy in Pa. or Colorado, not me).
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  15. #15
    Wookie Fred chewybrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    First off, it's not a 10mph pace, it's a little over an 8mph pace. Have you done a 1200k? The overall average time includes all your off the bike time. That includes sleeping, eating, going to the bathroom, BS'ing etc. If you average 17mph on a 1200k brevet you are going to finish somewhere around 43-44hrs. That would put you in the fastest 5% of all riders. If it was so easy to average 8mph there wouldn't be so many DNF's...
    Wow! I think you've missed my point. I never thought or meant to say this was easy. I'm among the slowest, and that's the group I'm trying to support. I've done 600. The cutoff to the finish on my 600 was 3:04 to run the last 31 miles. That's my 10 mph reference. My point is, at 3:03 to the finish, why tell me I have failed, when I, or really anyone, can easily ride 11 mph for 3 hours to make the final cutoff?

    I'm pretty slow, but I could have been an hour late to this checkpoint, and possibly still made the final cutoff, if allowed to continue.
    Last edited by chewybrian; 02-24-10 at 02:57 PM.
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    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Yeah, I guess I did. I'm still not too sure what you're getting after I guess. You can leave any check point, any time you want. You just have to make it to the next one before it's closing time. At the end of a 1200k in might not be reasonable for someone who is really struggling to be able to maintain a 10mph pace. What is easy at 600k may not be so easy at 1100k. They use the average to allow people to get a buffer that will allow them to sleep at some point. When you are fresh you may be able to average 17mph even when the cut-offs are set at 8mph. Later when your average speed drops to 11-13mph or slower you still have time in the bank. It's probably no the perfect system but I think it is a formula that helps people succeed.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  17. #17
    Wookie Fred chewybrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    Yeah, I guess I did. I'm still not too sure what you're getting after I guess.... It's probably no the perfect system but I think it is a formula that helps people succeed.
    I agree. The system does force the slower riders to stay on a pace where they have a more realistic shot to finish.

    I'm suggesting they get the option to fall behind that pace and still carry on if they want to try (within reason). Perhaps stopping for a big chunk of sleep or a nice meal puts them a bit behind the pace. But it might also help them power out to the end and finish before the ultimate cutoff. (if allowed to ride on). Think '86 Mets; it ain't over till it's over.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chewybrian View Post
    ...Think '86 Mets; it ain't over till it's over.
    In a way they do let you do that. If there has been a problem of one kind or another, such as helping a crashed rider or something like that, they will let you go on. I've seen that happen at PBP and other 1200ks. Like I said above, if you leave a control late because you were sleeping or whatever you are not disqualified as long as you make it to the next one before it closes. The problem is if you are struggling to make a control at 8mph 800k into a 1200k what are your chances of suddenly picking it up to 15mph? They're pretty slim. Most people who DNF on time do so before the 600k mark. If they are struggling to meet the cut-offs that early their chances of going faster are not good and it isn't fair to have volunteers out on the course waiting for struggling riders.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  19. #19
    Senior Member skiffrun's Avatar
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    The clear implication of "you could ride a 17 pace, or more, to the finish if needed" is that anyone and everyone can always ride 17 mph, whenever they feel like it.

    Which my comments reply, in a gentle way "No, not true, in two ways."

    Adrian Hands likely only ever rode 17 mph when going downslope with a tailwind. But he could do his slower pace for ... ever. His 88:55 PBP 2003 time did not come about because he hung around close to the finish waiting to get a big number on his medal.

    http://www.adrianhandssociety.com/Society_Members.html
    http://www.ahands.org/cycling/pbp2003/fini.html
    http://drcodfish.blogspot.com/

    The second comment was basically a note that flat-lander pace does not apply in all terrain. It is often interesting to see people from the flat SE side of Raleigh come to ride on the not-so-flat N-NW side. Not-a-few think they have enountered mountains -- and don't come back. Hilly terrain cuts the avg pace, sometimes considerably. And pacelines often repeatedly disintegrate -- meaning "no free ride being pulled by somebody else".
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    As for the pace requirements / open-closing of controls. If you haven't read the history of PBP, you ought to consider doing so. Also read about the rivalry between ACP and the other Audax club. That ought to give you some insight.

    Brevets call for the rider to balance and manage a number of factors. One of them is getting to each control within the alloted time-frames. There is nothing precluding a long sleep period, or stopping for a full 2 or 3 hour French dining experience, or take a side trip to a hospital (I cannot find a link to the story about the American - in 2003, I think - that went to hospital in the middle of PBP to pass a gall or kidney stone), or anything else. As long as you get to the controls within the alloted time-frames.

    If you don't like the pacing requirements of ACP / RUSA brevets, talk to the French, or you can always start your own organization.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Homey posted while I was typing.

    +1 for what he wrote immediately above.
    Last edited by skiffrun; 02-24-10 at 04:22 PM.

  20. #20
    Wookie Fred chewybrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiffrun View Post
    The clear implication of "you could ride a 17 pace, or more, to the finish if needed" is that anyone and everyone can always ride 17 mph, whenever they feel like it...
    I can see now how you could read it that way. What I meant was what I said at the end of that post: "As long as the rider has a realistic, even a long shot to finish, I'd give them every chance." In other words, it's not impossible that someone could fall far behind the pace, yet still be able to summon 17 for a while. It's just a number I threw out that seems near the high end of what they might have to offer. But almost certainly they can get more than 10 if they're still game to try to finish.

    Quote Originally Posted by skiffrun View Post
    If you don't like the pacing requirements of ACP / RUSA brevets, talk to the French, or you can always start your own organization...
    I love the NFL, but I don't have to love every rule to be a fan. Why do they let them punt out of bounds without a penalty? That is so lame! Coin flip for the ball in O.T.-wrong! If I didn't care, I wouldn't have opinions.

    I do love all those PBP stories. But letting people go later through the checkpoints would only mean more good stories, IMO.
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  21. #21
    Uber Goober StephenH's Avatar
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    Actually, I'm glad they don't have a terrain adjustment. I say this because I understand the classical rando route is hilly, and I assume the average speeds above take that into account. The significance is that down here in Flatville, I still get the same time y'all do in the Rocky Mountains. If they adjusted for terrain, they'd be giving me 9 hours when I need 10.

    I would say that in general, if you're not making the times, maybe you NEED to stop riding. Either the weather is terrible, and that's a good excuse to call it off, or maybe you're just not in shape for the task at hand. I ran into this on the 2nd 200k I tried on my Worksman cruiser. It was hot, head-windy, a few hills, I had one flat, and that put me to the 2nd control late. But I was about wiped out by then, too, so it wasn't neceesarily a bad thing that the ride got ended.

    On the brevets, I wasn't aware that you could make ANY controls late, regardless of whether you made it up on the next one- maybe that varies by area, or maybe I just haven't ridden enough to run into it. Of course, on the brevets I've done, only the first control was manned by rando people, the rest were the regular convenience stores.

    Oh, and in answer to the original post- here in this area, the times are always on the brevet card, and the only one that ever needs to calculate a time is the one making up the cards. Times will be absolute, not relative to the start. IE, start at 7:00-8:00 AM, 2nd control at, say, 11:00-13:00 or so, etc.
    Last edited by StephenH; 02-24-10 at 09:02 PM.
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  22. #22
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chewybrian View Post
    These ideas of letting you slide if you are late, or giving you time for hills seem odd to me. I've not seen them, but I can see the rationale for climbing time.
    I believe the idea of allowing a person to be late to one control somewhere in the ride if there is a chance that person can make it up later is something I've been told the PBP allows, and if the PBP allows it, then it's OK for other rides to allow it too.



    Quote Originally Posted by chewybrian View Post
    If it were up to me, I'd set the control cutoffs at about 17 mph from the end and work back to the start. Let the rider to decide when to push or rest. If you want sleep or have a breakdown, you could ride a 17 pace, or more, to the finish if needed. Why cut people off at a 10 mph pace when anyone (even me!) can ride faster than that?

    Example: A steady plodder like me can work up a 4 or 5 hour cushion on the first day of a 600k, and maybe catch a few hours of sleep. But, why not take an 8 hour break, and make 4 hours back on the second day, if that's the way you want to play it? As long as the rider has a realistic, even a long shot to finish, I'd give them every chance.
    1) Learn to talk in kilometers/hour. If you're planning to go to the PBP or do a brevet in any other country outside the US (with the possible exception of the UK) it is km/h ... and the minimum speed is 15 km/h (9 mph), not 10 mph.

    2) I don't think I understand what you're talking about, even after reading all your attempts to explain yourself.


    On a 600K, for example, the minimum speed is 15 km/h all the way through the ride. Suppose the ride starts at 6 am, you've got controls every 90 km. Your first control (90 km) will have a closing time of 12 (noon). Your second control (180 km) will have a closing time of 6 pm. Your third control (270 km) will have a closing time of 12 (midnight). Your fourth control (360 km) will have a closing time of 6 am. Your fifth control (450 km) will have a closing time of 12 (noon). Your sixth control (540 km) will have a closing time of 6 pm. And your final control (600 km) will have a closing time of 10 pm.

    During the 40 hours you are out there, you can sleep, eat, use the toilet, take photos, fix flat tires, or whatever. And when you decide to do those things is up to you ... as long as you make the closing times for the controls.

    Now, if you were up against some nasty weather or terrain or whatever, and rolled into the third control (for example) at 12:30 am rather than 12 midnight. You may be allowed to continue if: a) you looked like you could pick up the pace; b) it was known that the weather/terrain or whatever would be conducive to you picking up the pace; or c) you could somehow convince the people at the control that you would indeed pick up the pace. If you rolled into the fourth control before the closing time, all would be well. But if you rolled into the fourth control at 7:30 am ... the officials at that control would likely suggest that you pack it in. If you're losing time as you go along, chances are you're not going to make it to the finish within the alloted time.

    And if there are volunteers involved, it's not really fair to them to keep them waiting after the control closing times in the hopes that a rider will eventually make up the time.



    Here's the ACP site: http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/E...hp?showpage=11
    Randonneuring/ACP History: http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/E...hp?showpage=21 and http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/E...hp?showpage=23

    And here are the BRM rules: http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/E...p?showpage=322

    Note in particular Article 10 where it says:

    "Additionally, riders must arrive at each checkpoint between the opening and closing time for the checkpoint. These times are noted on the brevet card with the information for the checkpoints. Riders must arrive at each checkpoint between the start and the finish while the checkpoint is open. If a rider arrives at a checkpoint after it has closed and the ride organizer is satisfied that the rider's lateness is due to the occurrence of something unforeseen and beyond the control of the rider (such as stopping to help at a traffic accident or a road closure), then the ride organizer may waive the fact that the rider arrived at the control late and allow the rider to continue. Poor bicycle or equipment maintenance, fatigue, lack of fitness, hunger, etc. are not unforeseen and beyond the control of the rider and therefore will not serve as a valid reason for being late. Subject to the foregoing, failure to make all checkpoints, even if the brevet is done within the overall time limit, will result in disqualification."


    Here are tools for ride Organisers from the BRM http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/E...p?showpage=325 ... including the answer to the original question: "How to calculate the time of passage in the controls": http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/d...res_brm_08.xls

    And officially, the closing times are calculated on the following: "1 heure + 20 km/h (km 1 60); 15 km/h (km 61 600); 11,428 km/h (km 601 1000); 13,33 km/h (km 1001 1200); 11 km/h (km 1201 1400); 10 km/h (km 1401 1800); 9 km/h (km 1801 2000); arrondi commercial la minute."

    That's interesting, I didn't realize the sub-60 km speed.

    1 - 60 = 20 km/h + 1 hour
    61 - 600 = 15 km/h
    601 - 1000 = 11.428 km/h
    1001 - 1200 = 13.33 km/h
    1201 - 1400 = 11 km/h
    1401 - 1800 = 10 km/h
    1801 - 2000 = 9 km/h

  23. #23
    Senior Member The Octopus's Avatar
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    I've heard rumors of terrain adjustments to control times in the Western U.S., but I've not seen them myself there or anywhere else. The 2009 GRR didn't have any terrain adjustment that I was aware of. Like the other 1200s I've done, riders had 40 hours for the first 600K and 50 hours to finish from there; I don't recall any of the intermediate control times being adjusted for terrain.

    Note that some RBAs are likely more generous with time credits than others, but that the "best practices" approach to riding brevets would be to ride assuming that you're not going to get any "extra credit" at all, for anything. Not only do you need to plan for mechanicals and other totally foreseeable circumstances that might delay your arrival to a control, but also make sure you have time to deal with detours. Though some riders seem to think the RBAs should drive the route the day before the ride, this is rarely the practice. Road construction is common in the summer in the U.S. and it's often the case that a bridge that was there last week is gone on the day of the brevet or that a road is no longer paved because the work crew stripped it right down to the clay underlayment. Having a detour -- even a long one -- in the midst of your ride is foreseeable and I don't think most RBAs would give you any time credit if the detour caused you to be over time. For those who regularly press up against control closing times, keep this in mind.

    My memory of PBP in 2007 was that they did not enforce intermediate control closing times after Loudeac out-bound, within some reason, but that you had to finish the event within time overall. I recall all sorts of rumors circulating in the midst of the ride about 1- or 2-hour time credits being permitted (making the ride 91 or 92 hours rather than 90), and recall lots of moaning at the end of the ride because some felt that they'd been misled about how long they had to finish. That sucks, but I think the take-away for future rides and riders is that unless you have an entry in your brevet card giving you extra time then you ought to ride like you've got 90 hours. (Personally, I think the idea of permitting extra time because it was rainy is pretty silly; this is randonneuring ... It rains!)

  24. #24
    Que CERA, CERA jefferee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    That's interesting, I didn't realize the sub-60 km speed.

    1 - 60 = 20 km/h + 1 hour
    61 - 600 = 15 km/h
    601 - 1000 = 11.428 km/h
    1001 - 1200 = 13.33 km/h
    1201 - 1400 = 11 km/h
    1401 - 1800 = 10 km/h
    1801 - 2000 = 9 km/h
    Makes a lot of sense--that gives a bit more leeway in the first 60 km, before you have a chance to build up some margin.
    15 km/h and 20 km/h + 1 h would both require you to cover 60 km within the first 4 hours, but 20 km/h + 1h would give an extra 30 minutes to reach a control 30 km from the start.

    The only brevet I've ever done (a completely unofficial 200k permanent on a route I found online), I left late, and didn't have much margin at the first control, which was about 30 km from the start. I was sweating a little until I got there!
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorMantra View Post
    Cycling (taken to the typical roadie extreme) causes you to cough up your own soul as every fibre of your worthless being sings in choral agony. Once you embrace the pain everything is dandy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Octopus View Post
    I've heard rumors of terrain adjustments to control times in the Western U.S., but I've not seen them myself there or anywhere else. ...
    Seems like any such adjustment would clearly violate the ACP and RUSA rules but possibly not the RM rules. The spreadsheet that Machka circulated for the ACP speeds clearly has no terrain adjustment. The applicable RUSA rule (www.rusa.org/Download/o-rules.pdf) says:

    "B - Intermediate Checkpoints:
    Opening and Closing: Opening and closing times for intermediate checkpoints are determined by adding minimum and maximum travel times to the start checkpoint's opening time. Travel times are calculated by dividing the total distance of the checkpoint from the start by a minimum and a maximum speed. Minimum and maximum speeds vary according to total distance."

    But for RM, it says (http://www.lesrandonneursmondiaux.or...lations.html):

    "The allocated time for RM sanctioned events of 1200 km is ninety (90) hours. For events of 1400 km and greater the total time will be based on an average global speed of twelve (12) km per hour. It is recommended that all RM sanctioned events be patterned after the PBP and use qualifying brevets to ensure participants are well prepared and non-finishers are minimized."

    and

    "list of all control points to include the opening and closing times and the distance between each control; "

    and

    "For events of 1200 km the RMR in consultation with the President may, on request and with appropriate supporting documentation, approve modifications of the opening and closing time of the control points but within the total time allocation of 90 hours. "

    So ... maybe those modifications can include terrain adjustments? In any case, they are pretty vague about exactly how you are to calculate the internal control opening and closing times.

    Nick

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