Cave

Hi all,

I'm trying to decide between
- Mavic Open Pro / DT spokes / Ultegra or 105 rims
- Velocity A23 wheelset, or A23 on ultegra hubs
- Ambrosio excellite (I think) on similar hubs.

Probably 32 rear / 28 or 32 front spokes.

Me: 92kg, 2 yrs of little riding, prev 100-150km rides on w'ends plus commuting plus a weekender and a week long tour each year; looking to train up again with 200ish km rides the main goal.

Bike: Masi speciale CX steel frame, 32mm tyres on 32-spoke wheels

Why change: want a faster lighter more comfortable wheelset for group road rides and solo LD rides on the same bike; keeping original wheels for rough stuff and touring.

Reality-check option: putting a set of 23mm training tyres on the existing rims and see how it goes.

Any thoughts? Main aims are for faster ride and less jarring from the road.

I'm biased towards traditionally-spoked wheels rather than aero race wheels with fewer spokes.

Rowan

Hi Cave, good to catch up again.

Mavic Open Pros have been considered to be the benchmark, as you probably know. I had my eye on some from chainreactioncycles.com, but there is a little bit of fine print on the listing that says they won't sell outside the EU. So I can't give a personal opinion on them.

I opted for Velocity Aeroheads on Ultegra hubs with DT spokes for my CF bike. I have built up three or four pairs of Aeroheads since about 2003, and initially had two with spoke pull-through -- both were factory built and were the OS (offset) rear ones, but then they were on a bike that did some heavy-duty loaded touring on sealed and unsealed roads as well as randonneuring. And I suspect the extrusions they used at the time might not have been up to scratch.

The current Aeroheads are both the normal variety (that is, I have used a symmetrical one on the rear instead of the OS option). I have ridden them while I weighed up to 99kg. They have survived well.

I have Velocity Aeros on my fixed gear. They have a deeper profile, and are naturally that little bit stronger. But the profile is not so deep as to cause issues in side winds. And they have proved to be bullet-proof for both touring and randonneuring and century rides.

More recently, I picked up some DT Swiss RR1.1 low profile rims that were on run-out sale from the distributor (it pays to be an Audax Australia member when special offers like that come along). Anyway, I bought four, and built them up for both my and C's bikes on Ultegra hubs sourced from CRC and with DT spokes. They are performing well, and I am still around the 94kg mark. They differ significantly from the Velocity rims in that they are double eyeleted. I really like them.

The Ambrosios are an interesting choice as they are not on the radar for most people. But Machka's bike that was stolen had Ambrosio rims which were 36 spoke and eyeleted. They are/were very durable rims over many many thousands of kilometres of randonneuring and touring. I was impressed, but as I said, they are not widely available in my experience.

I won't go under 32 spoke three-crossed for front and rear, mainly because of the reliability factor for randonneuring. The Aeros are in fact 36 spoke. In addition, I use straight-gauge spokes, more for cost reasons than anything else. The weight saving by going to butted is minimal. I do all my own wheel-building, so I have total control over the finished product. The exception was the original wheels on Machka's stolen bike, but I rebuilt the front wheel with a SON dynohub just before BMB in 2006.

I suppose you could say Ultegra hubs are pretty good. The front DT Swiss wheels on both C's and my rando bikes have SON dynohubs on them. The rear hubs are Ultegra and have been good performers so far. I do, however, like sealed bearing hubs (the SONs, of course, being the classic examples). Sheldon Brown was a deadset fan of Shimano hubs, especially the higher models, because of their labyrinth seals, adjustability, and availablity of spare parts.

You mention in your post about more comfort from the wheelset. I am not so sure that wheels mean that much, when tyre pressure does. I have mentioned quite a few times previously here that I run my 23C tyres at 80psi, and Machka runs hers at 90psi. Even on the tandem with 32C tyres, we ran at 90psi on a 200 randonnee at the weekend. We had tried the tandem at 120psi for a 100km ride several weeks ago, and the ride was harsh, harsh, harsh compared with this past weekend.

If you are running at 120psi, for example, because that's what everyone else in the group does, maybe experiment with the lower pressures to (a) see if the comfort level improves and (b) it makes a difference in keeping up with the pack.

You can do this quite well retaining the original wheels and going to 23C tyres. You don't mention what wheels the Masi has, but I am assuming they are no wider than can safely run 23s.

Hope this helps.

Cave

Thanks Rowan, good to hear you and C are back riding and that her leg is settling down.

I might start off by measuring and weighing the wheels then trying 23mm rubber on them.

shorthanded

hey cave-

i have a relative of your CX, actually-- the speciale randonneur. the BEST thing you can do on that bike is off those wheels, honestly... the girders aren't awful, really.. but they are really really utilitarian wheels, and they do ride.. well.. cheap.

anyhow-- not that my you need to follow my lead-- but i put a set of mavic a319's spun up 3 cross on an old set of deore cx hubs, and the difference wasn't only in ride quality-- which felt a millionfold better due to a more shock absorptive rim and DB spokes and infinitely better bearing surfaces-- but those girders REALLY have a fairly rough braking surface as well-- so the entire feel of the bike takes an enormous turn for the better. so i'd think ANY shift in components would make a better ride over the utility wheels on the masi! mine hang in the garage.. just in case

anyhow-- having a couple of weeks on the a319's, i'm REALLY glad i built that set of wheels, especially locally, because roads aren't always the smoothest-- but i think in hindsight, i may've built up a set of open pros on the same hubs just because it would be nice to shave some weight over a touring rim that can take some serious beating. that said-- i'm thinking i'll build another set of 105/open pros that i can mount narrower tires on for more 'roadish' use (these were built up for mixed surface rides), and keep 'em in the stable. ultimately depends on how you ride 'em!

best o' luck!

rm -rf

Well, I'm no wheel expert at all. But I think tires are way more important for comfort. How much shock could a wheel absorb and still be stiff enough to have good handling?

My 23mm Continental GP4000 tires have very flexible sidewalls. The sidewalls deform easily over rough surfaces, which helps with comfort and has less power loss, too. They have really great grip.

I run lower pressure than some riders do. This helps with comfort on rough roads, and doesn't seem to reduce my speed at all. I got one pinch flat with this setup, but that was from not paying attention, and hitting a sharp edged steel valve cover at speed.
I'm 170 lbs / 75 kg.
My front tire is at 95 psi / 6.5 bar
The rear is 105 psi / 7.2 bar

Barrettscv 

There seems to be a trend for high performance road rims to be produced in the 23mm wide width. These are wider than the common 19mm wide rims, but are intended primarily for 23mm wide tires.

The performance benefits include better aerodynamics provided by the flat sidewall, better ride comfort provided by the increase in air volume, better rolling resistance provided by the improved shape of the contact patch, improved cornering from the flatter sidewall.

These rims also allow reduced air pressure required, due to the increased air volume.

Most of these rims and wheelsets have been costly, but now Velocity has an A23 rim that is within my price point https://www.velocityusa.com/default.asp?contentID=746 . they provide the rim in a range of spoke hole counts from 20 to 36.

I'm having a set of Velocity 32 spoke A23 rims with Shimano hubs (105 rear, Ultegra front) built for my Long Distance bike. I will run 700x 25 or 700 x 28 tires, and having a rim wider than 19mm seems right to me.

Having said that, I've been very happy with my Mavic Open Pro rims, I have two wheelsets with these. One set has more than 8000 miles in the last two years. I'm 210 lbs.

Michael

dcarney

My $0.02:

I've built up 3 pairs of wheels using Open Pros, each laced to either 105 or Ultegra hubs, with DT Competition 2.0/1.8 spokes and I couldn't be happier with them. I use them on everything from my rando bike to my cyclocross race bike, and I've got no major complaints. I've ridden tons of brevets, CX races, commuting over bad streets, etc etc with nothing more than an occasional touch-up truing.

The OpenPros are light, build up nicely, and have a traditional appearance (if you're the type that cares about stuff like that). Even though they're only 19mm wide, I've mounted tires up to 37mm wide with no problems at all.

To me, the Open Pro/105 combo is the perfect sweet spot between performance and value.

gorshkov

I have Mavic Open Pro's on my road bike, and I have been quite happy with them. I don't take them on dirt roads very often, but even the paved roads here in OK can be pretty rough, and I haven't had any wheel problems in 4 years and ~10,000 miles

Kind of off topic, sorry, but I think the reason for butted spokes is so that as the spokes stretch a little under cyclic load, the strain is spread over the entire length of the spoke instead of being confined to the elbow, thus reducing fatigue.

Rowan

Yes, I know that there are some engineering dynamics involved with butted spokes and frame tubing. But my wheels have basically been bullet-proof just using straight gauge, and I use only DT Swiss spokes.

dcarney also made an interesting point about the traditional look of Open Pros (and by extension, Aeroheads and the DT Swiss rims I mentioned). I much prefer the look compared with that of "aero" CF and alloy rims that are favoured by many.

My main concern with "aero" wheels is that they lose their advantage in crosswinds. We had them for at least 50% of our ride on Sunday on the tandem, and I was glad I had reasonably low-profile rims on board (Velocity Dyads).

Cave

A23s aren't available currently in anything over 28 holes (all gone to the USA hmmm....) so they're out. The HED 23mm are out of my price range so looks like a conventional wheel build to me.

The nice Ambrosios I was shown were tubulars, the clincher rims are actually pretty similar to the Mavics but the guy reckons the braking surface is harder and they wear a bit longer; they are a bit heavier than the Mavic or Velocity.

Both guys I spoke to recommended Mavic over velocity aeroheads.

Looks like Open Pros for me.

Any opinions on 105 vs Ultegra to save $25 per wheel?
Any opinions on 28- vs 32-spoke front wheels for a 92kg non-racer?

Maybe 36 rear 32 front. Maybe 32-28. Not sure.

Barrettscv 

I am using a 36 rear 32 front wheelset on my commuter/rain bike and a 32 rear & front on my long distance bikes. Both these wheelsets are using Open Pro rims with Shimano hubs.

I am able to find 36 spoke Dura Ace rear hubs very cheap on ebay. Cheaper than 32 spoke Ultegra which are very popular in the US. I'm using a 105 hubs with the 32 spoke rear & front wheelset. I find Ultegra to be the most expensive model without providing much benefit over the 105 and not as light or as smooth as the Dura ace.

Both wheelsets have been flawless performers after a retensioning at about 600 miles. I inspect them once a month and never find anything wrong with them. They are perfectly true without any signs of wear or stress.

canopus 

I would just do a 32 in the front. 4 spokes just isn't that much weight savings and you can always unlace it and move it to a rear wheel if needed. Also if you wanted to run a dyno hub those are fairly easy to get in 32h but not so much in 28h.

Sekhem

I had brand new Ultegra wheels/Ultegra hubs on a new bike. Within a year of riding (~8000 miles) the rims were cracked and the hubs were toast. The shop told me that they were seeing a lot of that happening on Ultegra wheel sets (but wouldnt waranty the wheels). I spent a lot of time w/ a wheel builder and he showed me a variety of stock wheels- many of them were racing wheels. The long and short of the discussion was that newer designs -while very sexy- translate to less durabilty (never mind none were waranteed for more than a year). I settled on having him machine custom hubs (MTB stunt hub/ceramic composite bearings)/traditional spoke design/lots of spokes). The rolling resistance on the hubs is spooky low and the wheels are wicked stiff. I have a life time waranty on the wheel set and I'm delighted with them.

roadrebel

Just ordered a Mavic/Tiagra - Mavic A319 road wheelset. It was the last set from 'bicycle outfitters indy' for $154 incl. ship.
I was close to get the Vuelta Corsa HD from Nashbar, but then I had 2. thoughts about the 30mm V-shape rim, requiring x-tra long valve stems and also the weight of those wheels.

I think the Mavic A319 w/ Tiagra hubs will weigh in slightly lighter.

I am planning to fit the wheels with a Vittoria Randonneur 28c road tyre. I like the double shielding in this tyre's construction.

There is a 36h version of the A319 for touring and crossbiking.

Carbonfiberboy 

I feel it's my duty as usual to weigh in with the bizarre opinion. This is from my perspective as a 160 lb. PNW year-round cyclist and sometime rando rider.

I've been running two types of wheelsets for the last 50K miles. My dry weather/brevet wheelset has been the Rolf Vector Comp, like what came new on my '99 Trek 5200. I wore out the brake track on that first wheelset in about 18 months, because I didn't understand about rim wear in the wet. I purchased a Rolf NOS replacement wheelset which I've been riding in the dry and on brevets until I wore the tracks out this past year.

Advantages of that wheelset: low spoke tensions, fast on the flat, cartridge bearings, and simply the most durable wheelset I've ever used. I hardly touch it. The only disadvantage is cost, which is amortized adequately if I never ride it in the rain except for brevets. I don't ride very many miles/year on rainy brevets and because brevets don't have much city riding or paceline work in them, I don't use the brakes much anyway.

The other wheelset type I've built up specifically for rain riding. It's the trad rim/spoke/hub type, running 32H Ultegra hubs with DT spokes. I started with MA2 rims, wore them out fairly quickly, and went to Open Pro Ceramics, which so far haven't worn at all.

Advantages of this wheelset are the relatively low cost, and with the ceramic rims, that low cost is amortized over a lot of miles. The disadvantage is the maintenance. I have to mess with this wheelset much more than the Rolfs. Spoke adjustment is no huge deal, just a minor aggravation. But the cup and cone bearings are a big deal. It takes me over an hour to rebuild each hub, using fresh balls each time. I've had to replace the cones once, but so far the cups have survived because I rebuild every time they roll gritty when held in my fingers, about once/month in the winter. That's a massive PITA. I've tried having a couple LBS do it, but that's worse because they don't put in enough grease to begin to keep the water out.

So I have slightly different priorities. I want fast, I want durable, I want low maintenance. My ideal winter wheels would be ceramic track, DT double butted spokes, and White Industries or CK hubs. My ideal dry and brevet wheelset would be as similar to the Rolfs as I can afford. Today, I'm leaning toward the Soul S3.0 to replace my Rolfs. At least they have cartridge bearings.

This winter has been a whole new experience so far, because I've only been riding our tandem with the CK hubs and Velocity rims in the rain. No maintenance other than washing and shoes, though I will have to replace the rims about every year. No choice I know of there, as the Open Pro Ceramics really aren't stiff enough for tandem use. But replacing rims isn't as big a deal as replacing the whole wheelset, and doesn't take much longer than rebuilding cup and cone hubs.

vredstein

You might consider compromising and using 28mm tires, which will give a nice profile with Open Pro, DT Swiss, or Ambrosio Excellence rims. I've built wheels using all three rims and all are winners-built up easy, good braking surface, and no eyelets pulling through. If you chose any of these rims, you'd have no reason for regret.
Using an eyeletted/socketed rim would make a strong 28 spoke front wheel, saving you a bit of weight.
While wider tires are the most significant comfort factor for wheels, narrower box section rims along with double butted spokes in a 3x crossing pattern are noticeably less jarring in my experience.
All in all, Open Pros, 28 front/32 rear, three-cross laced with double butted spokes, and 28mm tires would be most closely reach your aims.

alharris

I live in/ride mountains, in the rain on salted roads. I get around 8k km from my front rims and about double that from my rear before the brake tracks are worn. I ride through 3 rims a year. I mostly use Open Pro rims 36 3x DB rear and 32 2x DB front. I weigh in at 66kg. I set rear DS at 100kgf average and always better than +/-10%, front at 80kgf, +/-5%. DT465 are good, although I needed more than +/-10% drive side tension to get +/- 0.2mm lateral. Currently have a cheapo Rigida Chrina on the front, straight and true, rides and feels identical to any of the other lighter rims tried, wearing away nicely. I use Tiagra hubs, current rear has +35k km and had replacement freehubs, uses original spokes and is on its 3rd Open Pro rim. I wash down the rims each ride and service the hubs at each 5k km, pack with grease and preload.
Tyres and tubes, I use Continental 4000s with lightweight tubes, Maxxis Ultralight tubes at 70grms are ok, latex tubes are nice. I rarely wear out a tread, the sidewalls cut up first. I've tried heavier tyres, ie Gatorskins, but after 100km I'm cursing my choice and vowing never again. Vittoria and Schwalbe lightweight rubber is good, but I always carry a spare. (Open Corsa is marvelous, just floats, but, all cut up and retired after 600km ) I keep trying 25c on the rear but always return to 23c.
At my 66kgs and on the rough tarmac I run 90psi rear and front, any higher and the back dances around when climbing. These wheels/tyres/tubes see me comfortable through regular 300km day rides.

Carbonfiberboy 

Next rim replacement, you really should try the Open Pro Ceramics. You have to use the Koolstop green pads with them. The first pad set goes pretty quickly, but then it settles down. Better braking in the wet, too. A lot of LD riders here have gone over to these rims. The difference is quite amazing. I have yet to talk to anyone who wore a rim out.

alharris

I tried ceramic rims, both were rebuilt as rears with old 32 hubs. They started life as preferred front rims but the smell, squealing and grabbing on long hot and dry descents coupled with the unpredictable wet weather performance had them retired early to the rears, where they gradually chipped, dented and wore away.
A couple of hours of riding in the dry shines the rims, then it rains and it takes some hard braking to return the rims to any sort of decent stopping power; not what you want on hot 40 degC mountain days with afternoon rainstorms. I want consistent and predictable braking. They didn't work for me and I wouldn't use them again.

Homeyba

Smell********** What were you doing riding with your nose down on the brake? I've owned mine since 1998 and have never smelled them. Do you ride the brakes? The squealing and grabbing is because you didn't have them adjusted properly.
Your experience is contrary to everyone else I've known who uses them.

btw, CFboy, you don't have to use Kool stops with them. I just use regular pads(always have). They work fine, they just wear faster than usual.

Carbonfiberboy 

Probably because they weren't ceramic rims, but rather Mavic Open Pro CD rims. CD rims are anodized rather than ceramic coated and do have a reputation for squealing, braking poorly in the wet, and losing their coating. I don't think one person in ten knows the difference.

AFAIK, there are no prebuilt wheelsets available with the ceramic rims. You have to build your own or have them built.

Homeyba: Do you think the 36H Open Pro is strong enough for tandem use? Front only? Big advantage is no loss in wall thickness with age!