RichardGlover

After semi-lurking in the LD forum, I've come to understand that there is a bunch of stuff that separates a good long-distance randonneuring bike from a typical road bike or even a typical touring bike.

Some of the difference I understand. Others, I don't yet understand.

I'm looking to build something six months from now. I've already got a bike that's 'good enough' for 200k rides, so I'm not in any real hurry. Before I go building or buying a bike of my own, I want to know WHY so many LD cyclists come to similar places on choices they make for their bikes. (And yes, I'll get a professional fitting before I go off like some damn fool and spend money on another bike bike).

So, here are some common themes I've seen in many LD bikes where I understand the reasoning behind it:

Canti brakes

Provides sufficient clearance for larger tires.

Wide Tires

Provide a smoother ride than skinny tires, and are less prone to pinch flats. 35s are a common width.

Fenders w/Mud Flaps

When riding long distance, you can't control the weather, but you can influence how much it controls you. Fenders help keep you and your bike clean and dry.

Generator Hub w/Headlight

LD riding often incorporates nighttime riding, well away from the well-lit streets of a city or suburb.

Battery operated headlights are either too low power to provide sufficient illumination, require frequent battery changes, have unusually heavy battery packs, or some combination of the three.

Battery-operated tail lights tend to not be a concern due to the lower power-output requirements to be seen.

Handlebar height about the same as Seat

Low aero positions just aren't comfortable enough for long-distance riding.

Traditional 'road' handlebars

Better hand positions than upright bars, and better overall aerodynamics without sacrificing any comfort.

Front fork with some 'give' due to material and/or design

Smoother ride.

Saddle Choices

Very rider-specific, but LD riders seem to trend toward wider saddles than your typical roadie, due to the amount of time they're sitting instead of only semi-sitting.

Handlebar Bags

Cause it's just downright handy to have the stuff you need where you can reach it. I have a cheap Hbar bag my wife gave me; I love it, and want it to die in the worst way so I can justify buying a better one.

Front Racks

Again, I have a cheap Hbar bag, with no supporting rack, so I completely understand how desirable it'd be to have a sturdier solution. I can kinda-sorta see the desire to have a decaleur option if you want to remove your bag.



And here are some common themes where I don't yet think I understand:

Bar-Con or Downtube Shifters

Is it because a handlebar bag and brifter cables want to occupy the same space? Is it because DT and BarCons are easier to find in styles that'll have a friction backup in case the click-shift stuff craps out on you 150km into a ride?

Inquiring Mind Want to Know.

Frame Angles in General

I kinda understand some of the base concepts here.

Chainstay length, HT angle, ST angle, TT angle, BB height.... I understand what they ARE, and I understand they somehow translate into important stuff like ride comfort, responsiveness, and handling. I'm just missing the Rosetta Stone to actually understand the translation.

This is my biggest head-scratcher. I read threads where somebody's bought some bike (often a CX-like variant), and it seems the general consensus is that they're "ok" for starting long-distance riding, but that "you'll find out what you don't like about them after you start doing x-distance rides."

I know I'm missing something basic here.


There have got to be other things I've just completely missed or neglected to add here.

Barrettscv 

Canti brakes

Provides sufficient clearance for larger tires. I would suggest that long-reach caliper brakes are preferred to cantilever brakes. Long-reach Caliper brakes are easier to set-up and will accept 700x28 tires with fenders. You will see plenty of short-reach caliper brakes, too.

Wide Tires

Provide a smoother ride than skinny tires, and are less prone to pinch flats. 35s are a common width. Pinch flats are not the issue, ride comfort is. Opinions vary widely and 700x23 are just as popular as the larger sizes in the 700x25 to 700x32 range.

Fenders w/Mud Flaps

When riding long distance, you can't control the weather, but you can influence how much it controls you. Fenders help keep you and your bike clean and dry. In wet climates, fenders improve comfort and keep road grit off of the upper body. Fenders are less common in dryer climates

Generator Hub w/Headlight

LD riding often incorporates nighttime riding, well away from the well-lit streets of a city or suburb.

Battery operated headlights are either too low power to provide sufficient illumination, require frequent battery changes, have unusually heavy battery packs, or some combination of the three.

Battery-operated tail lights tend to not be a concern due to the lower power-output requirements to be seen.

Dyno-hubs are common for events lasting more than 12 hours.

Handlebar height about the same as Seat

Low aero positions just aren't comfortable enough for long-distance riding. Again, handlebars below the saddle are just as common as handlebars level with the saddle.

Traditional 'road' handlebars

Better hand positions than upright bars, and better overall aerodynamics without sacrificing any comfort. Generally true, but other types, including aero-bars and Trekking bars are also seen.

Front fork with some 'give' due to material and/or design

Smoother ride. Generally true.

Handlebar Bags

Cause it's just downright handy to have the stuff you need where you can reach it. I have a cheap Hbar bag my wife gave me; I love it, and want it to die in the worst way so I can justify buying a better one. Not everyone uses these.

Front Racks

Again, I have a cheap Hbar bag, with no supporting rack, so I completely understand how desirable it'd be to have a sturdier solution. I can kinda-sorta see the desire to have a decaleur option if you want to remove your bag. Not everyone uses these.

Bar-Con or Downtube Shifters

Is it because a handlebar bag and brifter cables want to occupy the same space? Is it because DT and BarCons are easier to find in styles that'll have a friction backup in case the click-shift stuff craps out on you 150km into a ride? Bar-Con or Downtube Shifters are cheaper, and very reliable. Brifters are also seen, but cost more and could fail, but rarely do.

This is my biggest head-scratcher. I read threads where somebody's bought some bike (often a CX-like variant), and it seems the general consensus is that they're "ok" for starting long-distance riding, but that "you'll find out what you don't like about them after you start doing x-distance rides."

It often takes the ownership of a few models to decide what you like.

Andrey

I think you summed it up nicely.
I think the beauty of it is figuring out what bike to ride and what equipment the bike has for a given ride. I had many "dream" bikes over the years of cycling and now I have 4 long distance bikes including the one you described in your post. Before each ride I try to choose the bike that I think will be the most suitable for the particular ride, but at the end I am still very tired regardless of the bike I had chosen.

The perfect bike for me (does not exist, I checked!) would feel as fast as my Cannondale with race geometry but have a long wheelbase for comfortable ride, 38 mm tires that do not feels squishy, front bag with a rack, triple front chairing, would be made out of titanium steel with aluminum inserts for stiffness, carbon fiber look, metal fenders with beautiful leather mudflaps, rear bag big enough to handle all the gear for 3-4 day rides but still weight 15-17 lb.
My suggestion to you is to get the bike you described above.
Take the above list to any custom builder and build it. You will love it, at least for a few years after the initial built. Seems like it is your dream bike at this time.

StephenH

Some of those things are regional. I think there are maybe 2 of us in Lone Star Randonneurs that have fenders. And I probably have the widest tires out there at 700x35, most are using something narrower. My bike has bar-end shifters because that's what it came with. They work okay, and if I was building up a new bike, I'd probably use them due to cost. Hub-generator light is handy for 400k or anything over, for a 300k, I was able to use batteries okay. Saddle choice- what my bike came with, and it works okay (Brooks). Frame geometry- ditto. Handlebar bags- more because I run out of room in a trunk bag, but there again, that's regional, and most of the local riders don't use them. Frame bags and/or rear racks without much on them and/or seat bags and/or stuff crammed in with the camelbacks are more common.

Bacciagalupe

It's actually fairly easy to sum up.

If you're going to be on a bike for an extended period of time, you want something comfortable (wide tires, fenders, semi-upright position, drops), stable (long wheelbase), can carry a reasonable amount of stuff (rack mounts), can handle varied terrain (low gears), robust components.

The other stuff is pretty much optional and varies. E.g. barcons, handlebar bags, cantis, generator hubs, front racks are all optional. Frame material doesn't matter in the slightest, it's all in how the material is used and how the tubes are formed.

Another key is that at some point -- I'm not sure when, but I'm guessing somewhere north of 150 miles -- the performance of the bike itself matters less and less. You might make up 5 minutes with a faster bike, but a) you'll probably lose it at the controls anyway and b) if the things that make the bike faster happen to make it less comfortable, well, you're gonna pay for that somehow.


As to geometry:

Long wheelbase = more stable, less affected by bumps, slower turning.
Longer chainstay = more heel clearance if you use panniers.
Smaller triangles = stiffer
Head tube & seat tube angles barely vary, thus barely matter.
Head tube length only affects how high or low the bars can be easily configured.
BB drop or BB height = ground clearance. More clearance = easier to deal with crap on the ground. Theoretically raises center of gravity, practically speaking it barely matters.

Machka 

Just a quick comment about tire width ... I've done all my randonneuring on 700x25s or occasionally 700x23s. My randonneuring bicycles couldn't take a 700x35 tire ... way too wide. That's more of a touring width, even perhaps the width you'd choose if you knew you'd be riding some gravel roads on a tour.

shorthanded

meh-- i don't think you're missing anything in particular. there's TONS of mythology and tons of wierd internet expert blab about all of the elements you bring up. i think what it comes down to is trying a few things, and talking to people and witnessing WHY people do things one way or another.

my particular fr'instances-- and i'm hardly some tenured monster of an LD rider.. but i'll give you my reasoning-or lack thereof- for how i've set my bike up.

canti's- nope-- i use centerpulls- the DC modern ones. i like them, one, and two-- i haven't got bosses on my frame. i also liked that i could mount a front rack on the armbolts, and did, and it was elegant, and worked out well. and they feel really good, with loads of clearance for a 45mm fender.

wide tires- i used to rock 32's, and now rock 28s as i recently swapped frames. i like more air for more space between the rim and the road... i ride farm roads often, and just don't want to bottom out. never pinch flatted ever.. but i also like the stability a wider tire offers. they're not slower, they're marginally heavier.. but it doesn't phase me anyhow. i like to ride on gravel now and again.

fenders- why ride with a soggy ass? nuf said. besides, i like putting them on, i like how they look, and they piss most roadies off, so that's impetus enough.

generator hub- i don't use a generator. but i also don't ride 600k's and beyond. yet. mebbe later i'll go that route gladly. right now-- batteries for me. but i use a B&M ixon iq, and that thing is WELL bright enough for most riding, and not super heavy.

bar height- i just use road bars, with a nitto technomic about saddle height. they have plenty of positions for me, and never knew any different.. so just use what i know. i'm 40. my back isn't super flexible. i don't know many rando-folks who're super young.. it's not a glory or glamor sport.. so it's populated by folks similarly flexible... so i think it's just an artifact of the average age of riders! not to mention, just more comfortable to me.

trad bars- aero bars make me want to chuckle. i hate them and think they're dumb. that's just me. why bother? just keep riding.

saddle choices- i like my brooks b17. i thought it was an old man saddle until i rode it-- nose pointed up and all. beats the hell out of my old turbo.. and it's just daggone comfortable. tried it on a whim, and just dug it.

handlebar bag- i like mine. i just have a plain vanilla VO one, and i love the damn thing. i like not dismounting to get food or arm warmers. i like having a 'table'. i like having a cue sheet holder. i like being immediately distinguishable as 'not roadie dude' and not getting waved back at by fat men on $5k carbon bikes in team kit for teams they don't ride for. ;D but that's just me. it also bothers my wife who calls it 'my ugly lunchbox'. pshaw, i say. i like it.

barcons- i don't rock SIS. i just never did. i used campy friction as a junior and raced non indexed.. so it's not difficult or wierd to trim gears for me. so i still do. it's also infuriating to think of bonking a brifter and being out $300. i LOVE brifters, and were i given bikes.. i'd gladly use them. but til then, i'm sticking with barcons.

frame angles... hairy subject. all i'll say is, i like traditional frames built for sport riding. i like 531-- whether or not it's magical is up for dispute. i just like the stuff, and enjoy frames that look like the ones i rode in the 80's. i also like quite a few modern ones-- but i enjoy LOOKING at them less... and it's my party, so i'm taking the one home that i like. the old 87 trek broad's coming home with me, and i'm good with that too.

what i will say is, my preferences run with less high bottom brackets, 73ish head and seat angles over more slack ones, and i really like shorter stays over longer. i also prefer 'standard' diameter lugged frames over oversized, and quill stems over big honkin bolty screwy things. again.. personal preference. just what i'm used to.

so ask a gazillion questions, see what guys're doing, and ask the retro grouches AND the carbon guys AND the aluminum dudes what works for them. i learn a TON from talking to crazy racer guys on bad looking bikes, but i've learned tons from tourists on hand brazed holdsworths too. there's a world of good to glean from all of 'em- even if on occasion it's 'i DO NOT want that...'

StephenH

A couple of other points is that people that are VERY experienced at long-distance riding don't all ride the same things, or even come close. Some are out there on their time trial bikes, some on recumbents, some on rando specials, it's just all over the map. Also, the people that I know that are very experienced riders are also forever looking at and buying/building up new bikes. It's not like they get a bike built up with your list of features and then they're set for life. And it's pretty much guaranteed that whatever you get now thinking it's the perfect rando bike, in a couple of years, you'll be thinking "Now, if this was different, it'd be better..." and you're off again.

lonesomesteve

I ride a bike that's a lot like what the OP describes, and the rationale he presents for the different features is pretty consistent with my thinking. But... I'd say the only real "common theme" you see at most long distance events is that everyone is riding a bike. Well, except for the people on trikes. There are plenty of skinny tire, crabon fibre, race bikes with battery light systems out there doing brevets.

Bicycle Quarterly did an equipment survey at PBP in 2007 that gives a good indication of the range of equipment that randonneurs are using (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc..._dDLLw&cad=rja).

The only way to really know what works for you is to go out and ride some long rides on whatever bike you happen to have now. A single SR series will teach you more about what works for you than all the back issues of BQ, or poring over all the threads in this forum.

Marcello

Just because all the rando riders around you ride a "rando bike" it does not mean that it will be a fit for you. I remember a 1000k brevet a few years ago, with a rider on a lightweight carbon fiber bike, carrying little more than a spare tube and a couple of CO2 cartridges. He had a great time going fast, but he was willing to risk a DNF to be able to ride his kind of ride. What you ride should match the style of long distance riding that you like to do.

Homeyba

That's because you're getting your info from the forums and not what's actually being ridden. You can go randonnuering on just about any bike. The real criteria is that the bike is comfortable over long distances and it does everything that you want it to. That, of course is going to mean different things to different people. As Stephen mentioned what is considered an "optimal" randonneuring bike varies greatly from region to region. If you show up at a 600km brevet in Southern California the bike you described would be a rarity.


What's wrong with your current bike that you can't make it work for longer rides? There is nothing wrong with buying a new bike but If you have better uses for the money why?


Wide Tires

The norm is probably closer to 28mm.

Fenders w/Mud Flaps

If you ride in the rain a lot yes. I don't own a pair. I ride in the rain occasionally but not enough to warrant putting them on my bike.

Generator Hub w/Headlight

While I think these are the best set-up they are not the norm by a long shot. They are relatively expensive.

Saddle Choices

I don't think that wider is better for long distance. It really depends on your butt.

Handlebar Bags

If you like them, put one on your bike. You don't see them as much in warmer climates. Probably because we aren't carrying as much.

Front Racks

Most don't go this route.

Bar-Con or Downtube Shifters

Really this is just personal preference. If you like to reach down or to the bar end. STI's work just as well. Some people will give you the "STI's will break" on you reasoning but if you take care of your equipment it's not an issue.

As far as your frame is concerned, the main thing you need to worry about is making sure your fork is designed for a handlebar bag. It'll make the bike handle with the extra weight up there.

It kind of sounds like you know what you want, just don't be surprised when you show up for a 1200k somewhere and find out that everybody isn't riding the same thing you are!

thebulls

Hi, Machka,

What your bike probably could take is 650Bx35 tires (on 650B wheels of course). The outside diameter is about the same as a 700Cx23 tire. But because the "wide spot" on the tire is closer to the axle, it would likely fit in any frame that can take a 700x32. The Pacenti Pari-Moto 650B tires that I am riding on weigh 280 grams, about the same as decent quality 700x28's (I'm thinking Conti GP4's). And the Pari-Moto's are very supple, so they roll just as fast as the best quality 700's. The extra volume of the 35's just sucks up road shock, so even on the worst chip seal you can't feel it. They really grip well in corners. And since we occasionally run into gravel roads on brevets, it's nice to know you have a tire that is confidence-inspiring instead of terrifying.

Nick

unterhausen

The randonneuring bike as described in the OP is not what most randonneurs ride, although the numbers are increasing. It more has to do with a revival of the French style of bike promoted by Bike Quarterly. I must say that the people that insist on riding 23mm or smaller tires seem to end up having lots of flats. I could fit 28mm tires with fenders on my bike, although it would be a tight fit. I have fenders, but there was only one winter ride where we were hammered with wet snow all day where I wished I had them on the bike instead of on the floor of my garage.

There is a fairly strong consensus that cantilever brakes stink for road bikes, and I can't disagree. I decided I was going to put cantis on my next bike after I wore out my brakes on the aforementioned winter ride. There are some pretty nice dual pivot brakes that work on bikes with the clearances you need for a good randonneuring bike. If you do go with cantis, get the Paul's

FrenchFit 

Be careful you're not sorting apples and oranges as the same thing. People who do RUSA randos involving serious climbs, like 15% grades and above, and climbs for miles...well, I don't think they're carrying baskets, panniers, 35c tires and mud flaps. LD touring yes, but fast and strenuous brevets and randos...I think not. So, if you are taking tough rides, with headwinds / lots of climbing, maybe "light" pops up toward the top of the list. As far as barcons: I just hate the feel of STIs and they just stop working without notice. Barcons simply work or can be fixed on the go. The are not as efficient, but nothing's perfect.

thebulls

RichardGlover,

You're getting a lot of good advice in this thread, but I think the best piece of advice has come from HomeyBA: If you've got a bike that's "good enough" for a 200Km, then chances are it's good enough for a 600Km, perhaps with a bit of adaptation. Ride an SR series and find out what works for you and what doesn't, and what seems to be working for other people around you and what doesn't. So much of this sport is about non-bike-specific things like how to eat and drink, and how to keep your mind in the game when all you want to do is stop for a few minutes. Sure the bike makes some difference -- it's got to fit you reasonably well. But I've ridden brevets on nearly a dozen bikes, all of them decent bikes, and I couldn't say that there has been any single bike that's a make-or-break experience. (I'll admit, though, none of them were carbon fiber or titatnium, so maybe I've really missed out!) Anyway, as you can see from this thread, bike preferences are all over the map, both figuratively and literally (in the sense of regional variation). The only way to really find out what works for you is to test it over and over again.

Nick

Homeyba

I ride 23's on my rando bike. Mainly because 25's won't fit. I don't think my incidence of flats is greater than anyone else. I usually only bring a few CO2 cartridges and tubs on brevets up to 600k. I throw extras in my drop bag on longer rides. I'm a pretty big guy too (225-240). I always ride on fresh tires though. That's probably the biggest factor. I don't let them wear to the cords. I also use 25's on my rando tandem.

Homeyba

Well said Nick!

BTW, you really have to do at least one 600k on a good carbon bike...

FunkyStickman

LOL, people keep telling me I need a good road bike, but nobody's volunteered to donate one!

I'm going to start doing brevets on a hybridized mountain bike... it's already set up for commuting, lights, fenders, etc. and it's going to be quite comfortable when I'm done with it. And you know, if it turns out to be a bad rando bike, well, I'll have a very comfy commuter!

StephenH

I did a 200k on Saturday. There were 6 or 7 of us stopped at one place, and someone pointed out that I was the only one that was NOT riding a titanium bike. And needless to say, the titanium bikes there did not have fenders, front racks, handlebar bags, etc.

"He had a great time going fast, but he was willing to risk a DNF to be able to ride his kind of ride." That rider sounds more like what we have down here! But note also, that those of us riding heavier bikes with fenders, carrying bagfuls of extra crap to be prepared for everything, also run a risk of a DNF due to being slow. So that can work both ways. Personally, I'm trying to increase speed at the moment, so I'm reconsidering the wisdom of some of the logic.

chewybrian 

A rider on our 600k this weekend had a 20 spoke wheel, popped a spoke, and could not stop his brakes from rubbing--badly! I don't know if he made it, but he was going pretty slow when I passed him, and working hard against his own machine. I've also seen brifters fail a couple times, and riders would be stuck with two gear choices to *try* to finish the ride (since they didn't have a triple to begin with!). I prefer the touring type set-up for reliability over weight weenie stuff, but, people ride all kinds of set-ups.

I did a series on a bike like that, and my touring bike is much, much more comfortable, and a bit faster. But, I did finish and get the SR on the mountain bike, so it won't stop you from going the distance.

Barrettscv 

These three bikes are equally capable as 200k or double century bikes;

Titanium road bike



The updated C & V bike



The recreational steel Cyclocross bike




These bikes have several things in common, including light-but-strong 32 spoke wheels with Mavic Open Pro or Velocity A23 rims. I use 700x25 or 700x28 tires on all bikes. All bikes have modern 2x10 or 3x10 drivetrains with external BB cranksets. All three bikes provide compliant frames with smooth ride quality. Steel & titanium frames are high on ride comfort, but also flex excessively during sprints and climbs.

I’m equally happy with indexed bar-end or “brifter” shifters. I’m equally happy with compact doubles, standard doubles or triples, as long as the gear range is correct for the route. I have three different brakes on these bikes. Cantilevers, long-reach caliper, and short-reach caliper. One bike has fenders, one bike does not and the other bike has a spray deflector over the rear wheel.

The fit of the Cyclocross and C & V bike was excellent after some minor fine tuning. The Ti road bike was always less about relaxed fit and more about extra power. I never fully adapted to the more aggresive fit style of this frame.

The versatility of the Cyclocross bike makes it the best bike, for me, overall.

bmike

Not mine, but this rider has done BMB, PBP, numerous other rando rides, lots of climbing, etc.

Homeyba

What this comes down to is that what's really important is the rider. As long as you make the control times it doesn't matter what bike you're on!!!!

If you are struggling then you need to start looking at things. Sometimes it's the rider and sometimes it's their gear and sometimes it's their bike.

FrenchFit 

There is always one. I'm surprised it's not FG...

vik 

+1 - I commuted to work on a Cannondale road bike for 3 years. Not the typical commuter rig, but I had fun and it made me want to ride to work. I'm amazed at the variety of bikes you see line up at the start of a brevet and most of them carry their riders successfully to the finish. I could give you a whole list of reasons why I ride the bike I do, but the most important one is that I'm stoked about it and it makes me excited to climb aboard and spin the pedals. I love seeing people super into their bikes. I don't care what they ride as long as they are having fun and achieving their goals.