bobbycorno

Can any of my fellow rando crazies shed some light?

My last chance to qualify for PBP this year was thwarted by my body evidently telling me (after about 150 mi), "ne plus ultra" (go no further). The 600k route was composed of three loops of 240, 120 and 240k. After the first loop, I took advantage of the natural break to shower and eat dinner - a bowl of chicken alfredo, and another of potato soup. I'd been eating well all day, and had plenty of energy at the end of loop one. Took off (at an easy pace) on the second loop, and within 10 miles I had slowed almost to a crawl, and stopped to sit on the side of the road, trying not to hurl. Got back on the bike after about half an hour of this, crawled to the next available services (about 5 mi down the road). Stopped, bought some 7up to try and settle my stomach (which it didn't, nor did Mylanta tabs), and sat outside feeling sick and weak, and shivering (in 70+f temps!) until I decided it was time to call for a rescue. It had taken me 3 hours to cover 17 miles, dead flat - a distance I'd normally cover in probably 1:15, absolute max, at "post meal" effort.

And to further cloud things, the same thing happened twice earlier this season: at roughly the same mileage in another 600, in cool, damp conditions, but BEFORE dinner, and once about 5 miles(!) into a 300k.

It doesn't appear to be strictly distance-related, either: I've completed two 400k's this year without this happening.

Can anybody clue me in to what's going on here? PBP is pretty well out for me this year, but I'd like to fix this so that I can continue randoing without wondering when I'm going to have another "system shutdown".

Thanks

SP
Bend, OR

FunkyStickman

Sounds like your body is reacting badly to something... possibly trying to tell you something is wrong. I'd get checked out by a doctor. Go back over your eating list for all rides and see if there are any common denominators.

Machka 

How long have you been doing the long distances?

That's how I was when I first started.

Do you nibble your food slowly as you ride, or do you wait till the controls and then eat quite a bit?

Also ... have you been tested for lactose intolerance? Chicken alfredo and potato soup, if I'm not mistaken, have quite a lot of diary products in them. They'd have been feeling pretty sick on a long ride.

Marcello

Bummer. I was looking forward to riding with you this summer.

I had something similar happen to me around the same distance on the Oregon XTR 600 last year, just a few miles after stopping at a control. But in my case it was probably due to running out of water several hours earlier, and then not being able to catch up with hydration, on such a hot day.

I am guessing that either the long drive and/or the Friday/Saturday schedule for the Olympic Peninsula 600 this weekend would not work for you?

bobbycorno

I've been riding brevets since '06, so you'd think I'd have this figured out by now... ;-)

I'm pretty much eating and drinking continuously while I ride. Lately, it's mostly drinking and very little eating as I've switched to an almost all-liquid diet. Tried Perpetuem for a while and ended up not tolerating the soy protein (!), so I've switched to Spiz, which uses whey protein. Never had any lactose issues, even when consuming large amounts of yougurt smoothies, flavored milk, etc while riding. (And yes, I'm careful to keep my calorie intake up: 2-300 cal/hr)

Actually, now that I think about it, fat content may be an issue. On the earlier 600 (where I also imploded), I was sucking down the Ensure Plus like there was no tomorrow, and that's got 3x the fat content of Spiz (on a per-calorie basis). And the dinner I had this past Saturday, especially the chicken alfredo was anything but low-fat. ...and it wasn't until after dinner that trouble struck. Hmmmm.... too late to salvage much of this season, but it's something to look into for the future.

Thanks for getting my gears turning.

SP

bobbycorno

I'm not real pleased about the whole thing either, but...

Even tho' the weather was a good 15-20 deg warmer than I'm used to (70-80f vs 50-60: it's been a cold year here), I don't think hydration was a factor. But it could've been.

Actually the drive to Tumwater wouldn't be that big a deal - it's only 10-15 miles further than the Tri-Cities. The scheduling is more of an issue: not only is all my vacation time for the year spoken for; we also need to have our travel reservations finalized by tomorrow (6/15). But we're going to France for 2 1/2 weeks anyway, so that'll be fun.

BTW - are you looking at doing the Rocky Mountain 1200 next year? It's definitely on my list, and from talking to Roger and Ali, it sounds like they've fixed a lot of the, ahem, "less excellent" sections of the route by bypassing a lot of the Trans-Canada. I'm looking forward to it already. And I might even do the Last Chance too, so I can score one of Bonner's "CanAm" pins.

SP

Marcello

Have you looked at the the "1000 du sud", a 1000k brevet in the Alps of southeast France this September? https://lemilledusud.blogspot.com/ Challenging, scenic, unsupported.

For next year I am looking at the 1001 Miglia in Italy. I am moving to Italy this fall, and I will be there for at least a year, so I have plans for rides in Europe in 2012.

Carbonfiberboy 

This one is a doctor thing. There are a great number of unusual metabolic things that could cause this.

The shivering. Often that's a symptom of a core temperature that's too high. It means that your skin circulation is shutting down, which of course is the opposite thing it should be doing if your core is hot, but that's what it does to some people. I've never had the shivers, even when I've been far gone with dehydration, but I've seen it in others, people putting on down jackets on a hot day, etc. But you showered, ate and drank, so you shouldn't have been in heat exhaustion, especially not that time at the start of a 300. So that's really weird, and I don't think that's it.

The really weak feeling could be a rapid blood sugar drop off. Your stomach felt bad, so I'd put my money on blood sugar gone to hell. That could have happened at the start of the 300, too. Were you dizzy? Had trouble making decisions? Any visual problems? Shivering is also a major sign of low blood sugar.

You could have had low blood sugar at the start of that 300 due to inauspicious eating, either not eating or eating an hour before the ride. A carby meal like you ate this last time will frequently drive down blood sugar. I never do that, because I'm relatively sensitive. I have to have small amounts, frequently. Machka mentioned that. I've eaten a meal before a pass climb and then almost fainted off the bike during. Also that happening that time before dinner could be the same cause, from improper fueling during the couple hours before it happened - either lack of fuel or a change in fuel, like going to a sugar drink from a slower fuel source, most likely.

So I'd think about my diet, and exactly what I'm eating and when. Do you eat mostly carbs normally? Frequent carb snacks? Maybe go in and get a glucose tolerance test. I'd definitely ask a doc to schedule one. And then think about everything you eat and ate that surrounds these events and the timing of that eating, and see if there's a pattern.

Rowan

What was the electrolyte intake like? It maybe that your food intake was fine, but because the electrolyte balance in your stomach was off, you weren't able to absorb the nutrients through the stomach wall.

What was your heart rate at the time?

How hot was your shower? And how much sun protection did you have?

c3hamby

shivering, nausea, weakness-signs of heat stroke. Doesn't have to be in the 90s to get that. I got it in junior high at a bmx race, and everytime thereafter for awhile I would get tired everytime it got hot.

Richard Cranium

yeah- trying to figure what you mean by "shutdown" pretty much makes this question a guessing game.

typically - when some one posts one of these "what's wrong" with me questions - it is always in conjunction with useless information and a lack of accurate context or background info.

you say you did 400k rides successfully so I'll skip ahead.

either you pace yourself incorrectly for that given day's weather conditions and route difficulty or you may be susceptible to digestive issues due to changes in water supplies or the food you select while eating.

There's no way - that it could be you are just poorly trained and ride poorly - there's no way that could be it.

Sekhem

the exact thing has happened to me twice-
both times feeling good, nutrition/hydration dialed in, speed good and then !!WHAM!! All wheels fell off the apple cart and I ended up sitting on the side of the road unable to ride. The only thing that both rides had in common - they were the first long rides after a big effort (first = 5 weeks after a 1200K, second = 2 weeks after a 600K). Both implosions happened at about the same time (~ mi 70) and couldnt be turned around w/ more food or water or be explained by bad weather, terraine, etc. The big rides preceeding the break downs were both problematic- I did both a little over trained and generally fatigued. In both cases I was out riding the next day and everything seemed ok.

These experiences have inspired me to be smarter about how I'm approaching SR series. I'm taking post ride recovery much more seriously and avoiding scheduling too many rides just because I think I can. We have a short brevet series here so I rode a couple out of state early in the year so I could space them out more.

Sorry to hear that this has messed up your PBP plans. Hope you are able to find another ride and can try it again in time to complete registration.

Bacciagalupe

I'd start by checking with a physician, preferably one who is familiar with endurance sports. If there really is anything seriously wrong, the doc should be able to pick up on it. In general you should get regular physicals anyway, it's unclear when you had your last one.

That said: It sounds like you bonked. Extreme fatigue, nausea and shivering are routine symptom of hypoglycemia.

The nearly-all-liquid diet does not sound like a good idea to me. I wouldn't be surprised if your body just isn't digesting it properly for some reason. Like it or not, your body and brain will expect a real solid meal during the ride.

bobbycorno

As always, your comments are sensitive, insightful and constructive.

SP
Bend, OR

bobbycorno

Just to clarify: the liquid diet is while on the bike. At pretty much every control, I have "real" food and drink, including sitdown meals at meal time.

I'd considered the possibility of bonk, but that didn't seem likely immediately after consuming a several-hundred-calorie meal. But it could be, I guess...

SP
Bend, OR

Bacciagalupe

I did assume you meant liquid diet on the bike, by the way.

I am not a GI doctor, so feel free to add as much salt as you like to my comments. I can only say that your symptoms do sound like you bonked. That would only make sense if your body just isn't properly metabolizing the liquids.

I would guess that if it really is hypoglycemia, you could detect it by using a blood glucose meter.

Rowan

Equally, you were asked some polite questions and you have chosen to ignore giving an answer to them.

greaterbrown

Richard sounds insensitive, however, he's got me thinking about how to find a solution for myself as I attempt longer distance rides. On a hilly 200 mile attempt last weekend, I had a digestive shutdown (food and water just sitting, bloated in my stomach) that weakened me to the point of shivering in 85 deg. temps by the 165 mile point. I hydrated using regular alerts from my watch, I drank perpetuem on the bike and good snacks off, but my digestion seemed to shutdown and I bonked.

So, what's going on and more importantly, how shall I correct it? Perhaps I've got some stomach problem that needs medical attention. Or, perhaps I'm doing the right thing, but in the wrong amounts or the wrong timing. I don't know yet. It's obviously complicated. But Richard's comments make me wonder- it may just be "easier" to address the problem by increasing cardio-fitness, thus decreasing stress on the body while riding.

Best of luck getting back onto the PBP train BobbyC

unterhausen

the only time that I've had "digestive shutdown" was when I ate too much at a controle. As far as the OP goes, I wonder if the person that mentioned heat was onto something. When it's hot, I try to lower my core temperature at controles because it's not going to happen on the road. Depending on temperature, eating two bowls of soup is possibly going to have the opposite effect.

Homeyba

Just because you injest something doesn't mean that it gets digested! If you pushed yourself too hard your stomach could have very well stopped digesting. RC may have a special way of saying it but he's spot on with regard to effort and digestion...

Carbonfiberboy 

When this has happened to me, I've conquered it by taking Endurolytes, 2 to start with, stopping any food intake, and pushing plain water from the first moment I feel a bloat coming on. Easing off just a bit helps, too. It's usually caused by too high stomach osmolality, IOW eating too much of some wrong thing and not diluting it enough with plain water. This happens to most folks if they ride long enough, hard enough. Very common. Not a fitness issue. Some people don't react well to Perpetuem, particularly under hot conditions. Experiment with other liquid foods, like Ensure, SE, Spiz, Accelerade, or mix your own like I do.

Carbonfiberboy 

Yeah, the theory is that the food drove you into a bonk. Well, IME not a true bonk. IOW you had plenty of glycogen left. Randos hardly ever run out of glycogen because we don't go that hard. I think what happens is that your insulin levels get too high and scavenge all the sugar out of your blood. IANAD, but as I understand it, this is the mechanism of what is called hypoglycemia. Too high insulin levels are usually a result of some dietary issue. I've been told this can morph into type 2 diabetes.

You don't talk about the condition of your stomach, other than nausea. My guess is that if you'd just sat there and drank water and taken Endurolytes to start with, then a little of your liquid bike food as your stomach started to feel better, in about 45 minutes you'd have come around and been able to ride just fine.

bobbycorno

"There's no way - that it could be you are just poorly trained and ride poorly - there's no way that could be it." This is polite?

SP

thebulls

My guess is that Rowan was referring to the questions that he asked about electrolytes etc. that you didn't answer.

Some of the posts have said that the solution to a bonk accompanied by bloating is to stop eating, but continue drinking. That's not been my experience. For instance, on our recent 600, I rode too hard in a long, hilly section and was drinking lots of sustained energy and goo to try to get enough fuel. Plus it was hot and dry so I was thirsty and was drinking plain water on top of all this. Eventually I bonked, and I thought about it and decided that since I could feel my stomach sloshing around, and since I knew I'd been consuming lots of calories, it all just meant that my stomach was no longer able to absorb the food, and with all that water I clearly was not at risk of dehydration. I slowed down, occasionally taking mouthfuls of water to help deal with dry mouth but spitting out the water instead of swallowing it. Then when I saw a shady spot I stopped and took a ten minute nap, and after about twenty minutes of riding slowly my energy started to pick up again and soon enough I was able to keep pace with some friends who are usually faster than me. Same thing happened on two prior rides (you'd think I would learn to slow down in those hilly sections, but sometimes you're just feeling good and go unsustainably hard).

greaterbrown

This sounds a lot like what i've experienced. Which is what makes me wonder- is it really an issue of the wrong consumption or is it a fitness issue. In other words if I (or any of us) improve our fitness does this problem go away?