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  1. #51
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakeed123 View Post
    ...Here's a recent post in the So Cal forums about a New Years Day ride I was going to go check out but ended up staying up most of the night- Here's a guys quote ont he results. I find it hard to believe the whole most of the group averaged over 22 mph for 85 miles as the poster states-
    Just an fyi, 22 mph over 85 miles isn't a big deal (depending on the course profile), especially when you are riding in a large group. That's actually kind of slow for a large group. In a group you are not out there pushing the wind all by yourself. You are saving about 30% of your energy expenditures riding in a group like that. If you like to go fast then you need to join some group rides.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  2. #52
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    A big plug for what homeyba is saying. IME he is exactly right. I'm just an average/below average specimen. My talents are that I like to ride my bike, have some feel for the kinetics of it, and have a low frontal area for my weight (I'm short). My VO2max is so low that a 7 minute mile was very fast for me in my youth, 50 years ago. But I could ride 300 miles in 24 hrs., simply by training the way homeyba says, and having the experience to be able to keep my butt in the saddle and the bike moving. I have also studied the heck out of it, use a periodized training program, keep close track of all my training markers, etc., etc. The talented can just go out and do it. The rest of us have to be a bit of a nut about it to have that level of success. My best times have been a flattish 400k in 15 hours and a mountainous 400k in 18.5 hrs., both those when over 60. Yes, those were hard rides, but also really fun. Training and riding smarter, not harder, are the keys.

  3. #53
    Free Velo Vol! Dudelsack's Avatar
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    "Garmin doping".

    1. Only count moving speed. Leave out 30 minute breaks.
    2. Set "autopause" for 5-6 miles an hour, thus negating stop light hindrance.

    There are people who go that fast, but a lot of times people are doping their gps.

    *dons asbestos underwear*

  4. #54
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
    "Garmin doping".

    1. Only count moving speed. Leave out 30 minute breaks.
    2. Set "autopause" for 5-6 miles an hour, thus negating stop light hindrance.

    There are people who go that fast, but a lot of times people are doping their gps.

    *dons asbestos underwear*
    That's one of the many cool things about brevets. You hand in your card at the finish and the next day or so everyone's ETs are up on the web. That rather lays it all out. No, it's not a race. Uh-uh.

  5. #55
    Free Velo Vol! Dudelsack's Avatar
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    I thought randonneuring was about the joy of the journey, not about crushing the souls of the weak and the sick.

  6. #56
    Senior Member The Octopus's Avatar
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    A few words on reporting times and speeds and average speeds on long rides:

    1. Time is always, without exception, total elapsed time. Any weekend warrior can ride a "five hour century" if he doesn't include his stops. In long distance events, whether it's randonneuring or ultra-distance races, the time you spent stopped counts, so in reporting on your ride, you count it, too.

    2. This topic usually comes up more in the road forum than here, but there's occasionally some debate and skepticism of the speeds that the riders at the pointy end of brevets, ultra-distance rides and other long-distance events can attain. In my experience, those who question the speeds people can hit or the distances they can ride have very little familiarity with the sport and have never ridden in a lead group. Where drafting is legal, it's common to see riders cruising along at over 30mph. In a 24-hour race. I've been in these groups, and I'm hardly the fastest person around here. In Sebring in '06, those of us in the lead group lapped riders before we left the track -- we went more than 9 miles before they covered even six. I remember looking at my cyclocomputer coming out of the infamous Turn 17 and seeing I was going 32mph. There was a guy that year who rode over 500 miles. The fast riders in this sport are very, very fast.

    3. "Average speed," although cyclists talk about it incessently, is largely a worthless metric. See #1, above. How fast you can go matters only in the context of how long you can keep it up and how much rest and recovery you need as a result of that effort. Back when I used to do very aggressive training rides -- rides with pros in them -- the "easiest" days were those with ridiculous averages. Everyone cranked it up to some high speed and we just cruised. The most brutal workouts -- and the best for developing better cycling fitness, in my opinion -- were those with terrible average speeds. You'd be riding along. Someone would attack. The peloton would roll in the mid-30s until the rider(s) was brought back. We'd slow way down. Someone else would attack. Rinse and repeat for 40 miles. No order. No consistently. Just chasing and chasing back on and attacking and two hours of brutal suffering. You'd get back to the parking lot and discover that you "averaged" something like 22mph but elite riders would have been shelled left and right on the ride and your lungs would be on fire. You'd circle the parking lot for a few minutes until you were confident that you had to strength to dismount and throw a leg over the top tube.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
    I thought randonneuring was about the joy of the journey, not about crushing the souls of the weak and the sick.
    Actually our RBA stopped posting finishing times on his web page because there was a small group out there "racing" his events. When you get your RUSA news letter they list every ones finish times for all of the brevets they did. The nice thing is that they are in alphabetical order.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  8. #58
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
    I thought randonneuring was about the joy of the journey, not about crushing the souls of the weak and the sick.
    When it comes to 300 mile days, we're talking more about the 24-hour race here than randonneuring.

  9. #59
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
    I thought randonneuring was about the joy of the journey, not about crushing the souls of the weak and the sick.
    If your soul might be crushed because someone came in before you, randonneuring might be good medicine for that soul. When you come in in the middle of the night, hurting but still riding strong, finishing with new-found friends, you may find you really don't give a flying **** that Jan came in 4 hours ahead of you. OTOH, if DNF next to your name fills you with shame rather than determination, randonneuring may not be for you.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    Actually our RBA stopped posting finishing times on his web page because there was a small group out there "racing" his events. When you get your RUSA news letter they list every ones finish times for all of the brevets they did. The nice thing is that they are in alphabetical order.
    Audax Australia has a strict policy of not publishing finishing times. The lists at the back of every edition of the national Checkpoint magazine lists those who qualified for brevets in alphabetical order and sans time.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakeed123 View Post
    ...I now see you guys are not the Tour de France type riders averaging 24 mph over long distance. Even though they run stages they are still riding hard every day for about a month which is the most demanding bike race in the world. I am sure they do not train to sustain, they go all out...
    All TdF participants go through the very long focused training, where they learn their bodies a lot. They know how to work hard and how to recover fast, thus being able to do it intensively over 3 weeks performing with average speeds over 40km. On the other hands, TdF stages are rarely longer that 250km, so even they work hard, it lasts just few hours and after that they have a professional recovery with the army of people helping them.

    With the long distance rides, it goes from 200 to 600 and beyond and you are on your own most of the time. So you set-up a personal steady peace for your ride to make sure, you will manage it as long as it is required to reach the last control, rather than maximizing effort for first 2-3 hours and than "die".

  12. #62
    Senior Member The Octopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Audax Australia has a strict policy of not publishing finishing times. The lists at the back of every edition of the national Checkpoint magazine lists those who qualified for brevets in alphabetical order and sans time.
    RUSA seems to have a blended policy. Finishers are always listed alphabetically. Usually without finish times, although some RBAs will list them.

    We get a yearbook, too, that shows every member in alphabetical order and the ride(s) that he or she did in the preceding year. Finish times are listed. The RUSA website is a font of information -- you can search for any member and see the rides and times that he or she did, or for any ride and see who did it and what their finish times were. Some RBAs will identify DNF'd riders by name (mostly this occurs on 1200Ks), but the majority in my experience will not.

    I've never seen randonneuring as a competitive pursuit -- other than against one's self -- nor do most of the randonneurs I've met view it that way. Rather than for fueling some competitive drive, I have found information about finish times to be useful in the aggregate to tell me something about how "tough" a route is either by seeing where the range of times fell or by seeing how riders I know and have ridden with have fared. I like to know what I'm getting into, and finish times help me plan and prepare, much like seeing the total elevation gain for a route.

    All that said, anyone looking at finish times in randonneuring should be warned that they oftentimes don't tell you much about the rider who the time belongs to. My 200K times range from 6:45 to 13:10, and the 6:45 included more than an hour off the bike. I know a RAAM solo finisher who did PBP in about 88:30. I know another who qualified for the Charly Miller Society.

  13. #63
    Free Velo Vol! Dudelsack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    If your soul might be crushed because someone came in before you, randonneuring might be good medicine for that soul. When you come in in the middle of the night, hurting but still riding strong, finishing with new-found friends, you may find you really don't give a flying **** that Jan came in 4 hours ahead of you. OTOH, if DNF next to your name fills you with shame rather than determination, randonneuring may not be for you.
    DNF? OMG, not THAT!

    I like what you are describing. I want to be strong enough to finish, which is why I'm heading out for a ride even though the weather totally sucks right now...

  14. #64
    Free Velo Vol! Dudelsack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    If you want to be slow then sure, train slow. That works! You'll be slow. Just because you do long distances doesn't mean you have to be slow.
    OK, I'm doing the experiment. I'm not smelling anything but smelling salts on my rides now. My legs feel great today. You might be on to something.

  15. #65
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
    OK, I'm doing the experiment. I'm not smelling anything but smelling salts on my rides now. My legs feel great today. You might be on to something.
    I'm not sure what you mean by that. What exactly are you doing? You shouldn't be out there hammering every day. You want to mix it up a bit. Make sure you have your rest days in there. Don't make it a job. Then it won't be fun anymore.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  16. #66
    Free Velo Vol! Dudelsack's Avatar
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    ....must....get....faster....



  17. #67
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Just remember to mix it up. Speed work one day, hills another and recovery rides. Don't forget the goal, that's to be able to ride fast enough so that you can stop and smell the roses, take beautiful pictures and get plenty of sleep!
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  18. #68
    Senior Member downtube42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Octopus View Post
    RUSA seems to have a blended policy. Finishers are always listed alphabetically. Usually without finish times, although some RBAs will list them.

    We get a yearbook, too, that shows every member in alphabetical order and the ride(s) that he or she did in the preceding year. Finish times are listed. The RUSA website is a font of information -- you can search for any member and see the rides and times that he or she did, or for any ride and see who did it and what their finish times were. Some RBAs will identify DNF'd riders by name (mostly this occurs on 1200Ks), but the majority in my experience will not.

    I've never seen randonneuring as a competitive pursuit -- other than against one's self -- nor do most of the randonneurs I've met view it that way. Rather than for fueling some competitive drive, I have found information about finish times to be useful in the aggregate to tell me something about how "tough" a route is either by seeing where the range of times fell or by seeing how riders I know and have ridden with have fared. I like to know what I'm getting into, and finish times help me plan and prepare, much like seeing the total elevation gain for a route.

    All that said, anyone looking at finish times in randonneuring should be warned that they oftentimes don't tell you much about the rider who the time belongs to. My 200K times range from 6:45 to 13:10, and the 6:45 included more than an hour off the bike. I know a RAAM solo finisher who did PBP in about 88:30. I know another who qualified for the Charly Miller Society.

    Interesting there doesn't appear to be anyone in both Adrian Hand and Charly Miller!
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  19. #69
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downtube42 View Post
    Interesting there doesn't appear to be anyone in both Adrian Hand and Charly Miller!
    Maybe I'll do that just to be the first...
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  20. #70
    Free Velo Vol! Dudelsack's Avatar
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    La Societe Andrians Hands? Cool! Sounds like a great guy. May he RIP.

  21. #71
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
    ....must....get....faster....


    How about working on getting comfortable with the 100K distance first. If you're planning to ride a 200K this season, you should already have done at least one 100K, and should be planning several more in the near future ... so that by the time you ride a 200K, you're quite comfortable with doing at least half that.

    Once you've done a handful of 100K rides, start upping the distance so that you will have done a century 2-3 weeks before your 200K.

    Go ride a 100K this coming weekend (not an event ... not for credit ... just to ride it). It doesn't matter how long it takes you ... just do it. Then 2 weeks from now do it again, and try to do it a little bit faster. Then do it again in 2 weeks.

    Work on your speed and hill climbing on shorter rides during the week.


    You made the comment in another thread that your motto is "ride small, dream big". If you want to be a randonneur, it should be "ride big, dream bigger".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ka0use View Post
    "DO folks ride 300/day?

    is this tdf or gdi riding?

    apparently i only LIKE to died just thinking of 100/day. with 300 staring at me now i AM dead.
    I'm kind of late to this thread, but I thought I'd put in my 2 cents worth...

    I've been riding 'ultras' (I really hate that term) for a little over 12 years now, as well as randonneuring. In that time I've done three 600Ks in less than 24 hours, as well as five Furnace Creek 508's and two Race Across Oregon's, where I covered more than 300 miles in 24 hours (325 minimum, 400 maximum). I ride Brevets with friends, and the ultras have all been solo non-drafting. All of these are 'total elapsed' times, not moving averages.

    With practice, I believe covering 300 miles in 24 hours is something that many people can achieve. As several have pointed out it does require that you learn to properly pace and fuel yourself. I usually do an almost exclusive liquid diet, and for me 275 to 325 calories per hour is what my stomach can sustain over the long haul - YMMV.

    I would encourage anyone who's thinking of doing a 24 hour (or greater) event to go for it! The sense of personal achievement you will gain from such an accomplishment is something that will stay with you forever.

  23. #73
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by norcalscot View Post
    I'm kind of late to this thread, but I thought I'd put in my 2 cents worth...

    I've been riding 'ultras' (I really hate that term) for a little over 12 years now, as well as randonneuring...
    I heard though the grapevine that you were possibly doing RAAM this year. Any truth to the rumor???? It'd be great to see you out there.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

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    Hey Homey!

    There's no truth to that rumor - solo RAAM is not in my future. I know my limits, and 2 nights without sleep is all I can muster. Now team RAAM - I might consider that!

    At the moment I'm just trying to get my motivation back - the end of last year was a trail of injury and illness for me, and I'm a long way from being fit enough to ride long distance at a fast pace. Things have been looking up over the last month or so though, so hopefully I'll be fit for my first double in March.

    Are you planning any doubles this year? or the 508?

  25. #75
    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakeed123 View Post
    Curious afterthought- Are there many endurance riders over 200 lbs? I know alot of sports makeup for body size to fall into a certain perameter- most pros usually are stamped out like a cookie cutter. it apears most of the tour de france guys are something like 170 or less? I see a forum on here where they call 200 lbs riders Clydesdales (laughing). I am tall and thin (34"waist) but I weigh as stated a Budweiser tipping 234lbs. I donlt know alot of 150 lb guys that say their fetet hurt after walking a swapmeeet for 4 hours like up heavier people do- I think that myay have something to do with this bicycle endurance body makeup. ?
    Anyways, interesting thoughts for me tonight. Every sport has it's groove.
    It's probably easier to ride long distances if you're light. I'm not an endurance rider by the definitions of this forum but looking at getting into it (done a few rides of 60-90 miles and one century, with more planned) and I weigh in at 240 give or take.

    Although I haven't completed one as yet I am looking to enter one or more 200k rides before long, just need to find one close enough to home on a day that works for me. Failing that I'll work one out for myself... got a friend who lives 150 miles away so might use that as a test run.
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