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Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling Do you enjoy centuries, double centuries, brevets, randonnees, and 24-hour time trials? Share ride reports, and exchange training, equipment, and nutrition information specific to long distance cycling. This isn't for tours, this is for endurance events cycling

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Old 01-16-12, 04:36 AM   #1
SeeJoeRide
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Alternative to Perpetuem and Sustained Energy?

Long time reader, first time poster...

Long story short, I get chronic chest infections and found part of it is due to some food allergies, specifically soy and dairy. So last year I tried to do a super rando series using mostly Perpetuem and Fizz. While I did fine at the 200k, 300k, and 400k I noticed around the 400k to 600k marker the soy allergy wore me out too much.

Since finding out these allergies I've been trying several food plans but nothing gets me safely past the 300K mark as well as the Perpetuem. I'm finding I feel great till about 100 miles and then between 100 and 140 I run low on something and my body just wants to shut down. What I've been trying is any combination of Fizz, shot bloks, hammer bars (these seem to not sit well and are too oily), granola bars, mixing in a small bit of rice/hemp protein mix around the 60+ mile marker.

So I'm wondering if anyone knows of a soy/diary free option that is similar to Perpetuem. Or if anyone knows of how Perpetuem works that I can't seem to supplement via the options above.
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Old 01-16-12, 05:42 AM   #2
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Have you tried Spiz?

http://www.spiz.net/ProductInformati...2/Default.aspx
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Old 01-16-12, 06:41 AM   #3
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I use Ensure (on long, long rides when my digestive system no longer wants solid food) because it is lactose free ... but I couldn't tell you off-hand what the protein in Ensure is.

However, I try to keep eating solid food as long as I possibly can.

While riding:
Granola bars
Cereal bars
Oatmeal and raisin cookies
Oatmeal and chocolate chip cookies
Salted almonds
Small bags of cheezies or chips
Poptarts
Dried fruit
Bananas
Other fruit - cut into pieces


When I stop for a break:
Cheesecake
Carrot cake
Muffins
Pastries
Crackers and cheese
Potato chips
French fries
Hamburger
Chicken croissant
Subway sub
French toast
Perogies
Pizza Pops
Slice of Pizza
Burritos
Chicken Noodle Soup
Whatever is available in the town I'm in ... and appeals to me.

I used to include scrambled eggs and toast in that list, but it seems that eggs bother my gall bladder now.

Last edited by Machka; 01-16-12 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 01-16-12, 07:23 AM   #4
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+1
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Old 01-16-12, 09:46 AM   #5
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I would say Spiz too but you might have the same reaction. Ensure is a good one and also Boost, any of the old people liquid foods work pretty good. You're going to have to look at the ingredients.

Real food, like what Machka suggested, will work too. You'll just not be able to ride near your max levels as well as you would with more easily digestible foods.
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Old 01-16-12, 12:11 PM   #6
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I've used Perpetuum in the past, and probably will in the future, but a lot of my rides are just based on getting barbecue sandwiches, junk food, soda pop, and stuff like that as I go, too.
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Old 01-16-12, 03:06 PM   #7
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Real food, like what Machka suggested, will work too. You'll just not be able to ride near your max levels as well as you would with more easily digestible foods.
For me it's all about listening to my body and going with what I crave at the moment. If I'm hungry for a certain type of food, it goes down well, stays down, and I have all sorts of energy. If I'm not hungry for whatever is available, and especially if I'm not hungry for anything, then I've got some issues ... and that's usually when I switch to Ensure or gels.

And while riding, I nibble my food rather than trying to eat a whole granola bar or cookie in one go. I've discovered that nibbling works much better ... keeps a steady flow of fuel going in, keeps the digestive system happy, and keeps my energy level up.


Plus ... eating real food is one of the best parts of randonneuring. Pulling up in a little town, checking out what they've got available in the way of bakeries or fast food places, stopping, sitting down, and eating something yummy.

One of my big disappointments, when I was recovering from DVT, was that I was so slow that we had to ride all the way through all our randonnees in order to make the cut-off times. There was no time to sit down and relax for a moment with a hot coffee and slab of carrot cake. Fortunately my strength and speed are returning, and we've had time to stop and eat on the last two randonnees, and still finish with time to spare.

Last edited by Machka; 01-16-12 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 01-16-12, 05:03 PM   #8
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Thanks everyone for the suggestions and advice. While I agree with the listen to your body, and that works great on the casual century or even a brevet, I'm trying to do a 24 hour race and/or RAAM qualifier this year. So coming up with a more efficient, liquid diet is one of my goals.

That said I've been overly focusing on the fact that Perpetuem is Perpetuem and not the liquid versus solid diet. I did love the performance boost and longevity I got out of Perpetuem but maybe it was just because it was liquid and my body could process it faster, instead of overly analyzing how I can get the same carb/protein/vitamin mix via solid food.

Ensure has soy in it so that's out, and most have dairy too. I'll have to check out Boost next time I'm at the store and troll the whole section for potential candidates.

Nibbling might help. I usually sip water ever 10 minutes or so, but only eat once or twice an hour (half a bar at a time). Maybe if I nibble more often it'd be a more steady intake.

Spiz is whey, which is dairy based. This might be worth trying out though as dairy just gives me sinus headaches, where as soy makes me feel like I have food poisoning. I think I could tolerate a mild headache if it means getting to 200-300 miles without bonking


Another question I've had but keep forgetting to ask people during rando rides: Why do some people like Heed more than say Fizz? Just personal preference or am I missing a better reason to use Heed?
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Old 01-16-12, 07:36 PM   #9
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Dairy allergy is usually an allergy to lactose. Good quality whey protein is lactose free, or close enough to that for most dairy-sensitive folks. You'll have to experiment to see if it bothers you.

I use pure maltodextrin, which I purchase from a homebrew store in 50# bags, mixed with Optimum Nutrition Gold whey protein. You might try buying a small container of the ON whey and try just using that, say a little before meals. See if it bothers you. If it does, you can always give it to a friend. Worth a try, anyway. Pretty hard to eat out of convenience stores and go completely dairy and soy free, but not impossible. Clif bars are free of those products as well as wheat-free.

HEED has calories as well as electrolytes. I mix it at a 100-150 cal./bottle strength, depending on the ride.
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Old 01-16-12, 07:48 PM   #10
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Slightly off topic, but if you're interested, my allergy to milk isn't the usual lactose intolerance. For me it causes inflammation, which over time builds and set off my sinuses (in the form of low grade headaches) and then long term kicks off my asthma and gives me chest infections. That said, after reading a few articles just now, it might be casein that's the culprit and not whey (it's usually one or the other). Carbonfiberboy, I think you're right. I'll just pick up some whey and try it. If I drink a pint of it and have a headache within 4 hours then I know it's a no go. Thanks for the suggestion!

Also, unfortunately, clif bars do have soy in them
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Old 02-01-12, 09:39 PM   #11
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Wow, what a crummy allergy for an endurance athlete to have! Good luck, I think that the whey is a really good lead and hope it works out for you.
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Old 02-02-12, 07:29 AM   #12
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I use intra-max all in one as a recovery and before a ride
http://www.drvitaminsolutions.com/in...FS6Ctgod4U4Atw

So they have a lot of products for you to look at that may help your allergy http://www.drvitaminsolutions.com/in...duct_list&c=32

It doesn't effect my heart rate and seems to let my body use energy. Of course i spend 95% of my ride time in the fat burning zone 1 and 2 and i am not riding 200 either (YET!)
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Old 02-03-12, 03:20 PM   #13
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I jounal my intake on long rides pretty carefully and was shocked to discover how perpeteum and heed negatively impacted my ability to ride well. After a period, the stomach cramps and nausea when using hammer products made it clear that my body didn't think that it was food. The other products including ensure, spitz, etc weren't helpful after the first 4-5 hrs - it may be the dairy/soy/corn connection (maltodextrin is corn based). Doing v long rides really requires calorie supplementation that I just can't get from just eating hotdogs and granola bars along the way so I've did a lot of exploration to find a solution. I experimented w/ the other grain and non-grain based 'milks' (rice, almond, etc) with unenthusiastic results.

then I tried coconut milk and was quite startled w/ the effect.

I got hooked on the chocolate/mint (good for sour stomach). The quality of energy was immediate and really good. After 10 hrs it doesn't give me stomach issues(which was impossible w/ hammer products). Plain coconut milk (while it doesn't have as many calories) isn't sweet and is drinkable as plain water. This is SUCH a wonderful thing... consuming SWEET everything for 40 hours is just nasty after a while. For some reason, the milk out of the dairy case work better than the shelf-stable products. Coconut milk contains medium chain fatty acids which are metabolized as quickly as glucose. Muscles metabolize MCFAs directly (unlike ordinary lipids). My only hangup w/ MCFAs is that they are a saturated fat.... I don't know what's the health consequence of consuming gallons of the stuff over long periods of time. On the plus side, I've ridden my fastest 200k rides (3 times now) when I was using coconut milk. I can consume an equivalent number of calories using ensure, etc and find that I generally don't ride consistently well. This might be a placebo thing but I'm just happy to not be volcano vomitting on rides. Another up side is that it contains as much or more calcium as milk (as bone loss in endurance cyclists is an issue) and it contains electrolytes. A down side is that it contains virtually no protein. My ability to sustain v long rides requires at least some qood quality protein along the way.

Here's a very old review: (Chapter 5, Babayan)
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...q=mcfa&f=false

A nutritionist suggested that I must have the genetics to be a 'fat metabolizer' (I have no idea what THAT means since I store the stuff quite effectively ) and that's why MCFAs work well for me. She suggested that it might not be generally true for most folks. Let us know if it works for you!

On a side note -The one thing that endurance riding has made worse are my negative food sensitivities (I react in much the same way that you do and my data clearly show that wrong food choices on the ride effect my ability to ride well... if it gives me a headache/stomach ache chances are I'm not riding well on it). I started to work w/ the Paleo Diet (limits grains and dairy) and found that when I had to consume something inappropriate from a gas station on a ride, it was less likely to make me sick. Maybe some thought to your daily diet would be helpful.

On a second side note.... emember that you have a digestive system that is designed to process a wide spectrum of molecule types all at once. Focusing on a single solution (or a single source of calories) is limiting your system of its potential.

good luck with RAAM. We look forward to hearing about your preparation for the race!

Last edited by Sekhem; 02-03-12 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 02-03-12, 05:28 PM   #14
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I'm trying to do a 24 hour race and/or RAAM qualifier this year.
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good luck with RAAM. We look forward to hearing about your preparation for the race!
A RAAM qualifier is not RAAM.
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Old 02-04-12, 03:03 PM   #15
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Carbonfibreboy is on the right track.

I've used a mix of my own made up of powders of maltodextrin, fructose and glucose, with "diet salt" added. All are easily available and are comparatively cheap. The maltodextrin is the majority ingredient and provides long-term energy needs; fructose and glucose are used in the small much smaller proportions for intermediate and instant energy needs.

The diet salt has potassium chloride mixed in with the sodium chloride. Potassium is important for cell metabolism. However, be careful in the amounts used, because the potassium chloride has a much stronger taste. On taste, the powders generally don't have a strong sweet taste, so you can use it plain, or add shots of Crystal Lite if needed.

I can't remember the proportions offhand, but like most things, it's a matter of experiment to find what suits you. I would mix it up, then package it in required amounts in either small ziploc bags or freezer bags that I tied off; I then would rip the bags open as needed. Just note, though, that the powders can get sticky really quickly if there is moisture about (rain, mist or humidity).

The maltodextrin is significant ingredient in brewing and therefore is available in bulk quantities at brewing supply shops. I got fructose from the cake cooking section of the supermarket. And glucose from pharmacy shelves. That's a bit of hunting around, but at 1/5th or less of the price of commercial products, it was worth it.

And the best part of all is that no protein exists in this mix so it should be allergy safe in this instance!
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Old 02-05-12, 06:15 PM   #16
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Dairy allergy is usually an allergy to lactose. Good quality whey protein is lactose free, or close enough to that for most dairy-sensitive folks.
http://www.foodallergysolutions.com/...-news0307.html

Quote:
Lactose intolerance is frequently confused with milk allergy, but the two conditions are not the same.
http://foodallergies.about.com/od/da...yallergies.htm

Lactose intolerance is not an immune response (ie, it's not an "allergy"). It's due to the absence/reduced-activity of a digestive enzyme.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001321/
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