rhm

Yes, I agree with that. More to the point, I think a lot of the people who talk about it don't know what they're talking about. In particular I have grave misgivings about all the talk of doing anything to a saddle to hasten the process.

Yo Spiff

On a group ride yesterday, I was inquiring to someone else about some fancy scrollwork she'd had done to her B17. She mentioned that the saddle has not softened up as she expected since she bought it last May. I went and gave a few pushes on it with my thumb and it felt pretty similar to my own B17 that I also bought last summer. I explained to her that is just how they feel. They conform to your butt, but never get cushy soft. My 13 year old Team Pro only has slightly more give to the leather.

I did buy a B67s for my wife, and that has a bit of cush and give when brand new, but it is also by design.

noteon 

Without having asked around a lot, so this is just a guess:

I suspect people used to modern saddles will initially level them the same way, which (for me, anyway) doesn't work. I'd also guess the setback limit has some butts riding too close to (or even on) the rear rim of the metal frame.

rhm

All the remarks about setback have me wondering about frame geometry.

Those of you who have complained about the Brooks saddle rails, are you riding pretty modern bikes? I have no setback problems with my old Brooks saddles, but I'm riding bikes that date back to the days when frames had more relaxed angles. In fact on two of my bikes, English frames from the 40's, the seat tube angle is so slack that I have to mount the saddle in front of the seat post-- otherwise there is too much setback.

Bicycle frames have changed quite a bit more in the last fifty years than Brooks saddle frames have.

ThermionicScott 

Yeah, it's kind of unfathomable that Brooks has altered the shape of the B17 several times over the years, but didn't bother to tweak the rails when seat tubes got steeper. I mean, come on, moving the bend forward wouldn't gotten in the way of mounting it on older bikes!

Hangtownmatt

I'd like to see a non-suspended leather saddle along the lines of a Specialized Romin, Avatar, etc. This would provide all the advantages of a modern saddle with the look of a classic.

Matt

fietsbob

One of the Selle Anatomica's developers, a day's ride was 200 miles ,
like Fairfield to Santa Rosa, Cal, for example..

Died on a Bike ride . Pump gave out, Ticker stopped Ticking..

we had some communicatiobns back in the early release days..
since I was raised in that Nor Cal area..

Road Fan

Yes, Tom Miller (RIP).

Gravity Aided

2 designs may be good from a marketing standpoint. One with a wider, flatter back that is sprung, for tour and other more upright riders, and one that is narrower for the racing saddle crowd who ride more in a tuck position on the drops, or just prefer that saddle fit .

LucF

1. A good saddle for me is one that fits (me) and has a standard build (so I can attach generic equipment to it).
2. My B17N fits me perfectly, but I would do without the rear holes for straps.
3. No.
4. I like short but have been comfortable on saddles with 1 in. variations in length.
5. Width is very important. Fundamental to fit.
6. Weight is not as important as comfort, but it is important (in the long distance rider's perspective). I wouldn't like my saddle to weigh for aesthetic reasons.
7. Never tried them but they look useful.

chasm54

Difficult to answer what seems a simple question. What makes a good saddle good? Warning - this may get lengthy.

I'm a long-time Brooks user. I have a B17 on my touring bike, and a Swift on one of my road bikes. Both excellent, when I come to buy another saddle it will almost certainly be a Brooks Swift or Swallow. They do break in, but in my experience they are pretty comfortable out of the box and the change in shape is quite modest.

I have experimented with a number of other saddles, including some with perineal cut-outs. In this category were the Specialized Toupe and Phenom saddles. The Toupe cut me to pieces, the only saddle I have used that gave me saddle sores. The phenom was much less horrible, but still unacceptable. For some reason both these saddles left me with tenderness above the sitbones.

The Fizik Aliante, by contrast, is almost as comfortable as my Brooks Swift. And the stock saddle that came with a Giant SCR a few years ago (branded as Giant, but I have no idea whether they make it or buy it in) was another that has been problem-free.

So to answer your question I've thought about the differences beyween the Aliante and the stock giant saddle, on the one hand, and the two specialized offerings on the other. I think it something to with the rate at which the saddle falls away from from the flattish area on which one sits. The specialized saddles stay flattish, then terminate pretty sharply. The ones I like seem to curve away more gradually. My guess is that when shifting around on the saddle, as one inevitable does in the course of a long ride, the more gradual curves are more forgiving if for example, one finds oneself a few millimetres forward of one's usual position.

Another related possibility is that the broken-in Brooks, having conformed somewhat to your shape, holds you in position better and therefore prevents you getting into inappropriate positions that might cause issues. Plus, they too tend to curve away more gradully than the specializeds.

I don't know if this helps you in the slightest, but it has made me think in rather more detail han before about what suits me and why, so thanks.

Road Fan

RHM and FTW:

What I've been thinking about is a tensioned leather saddle with a lightweight structure - Ti or CrMo tubular rails with very generous straight sections, like the tubes from a Toupe (Ti) or an Alias (tubular CrMo), with a composite or plastic cantle such as on in teh Berthoud design. I like both a B17 and a Selle AnAtomica, so I don't know exactly what I'd like as far as shape. The Specializeds I've used show me that I like a flat top profile, a cutout, a non-compliant surface (both Alias and Toupe are too squishy), and a very narrow saddle from say the 50% point up to the nose.

Here the Toupe 143 would be a pretty decent model for the narrowness I would want. I find the S-A sideskirts can't be "pulled in" far enough for me without full-range bolt tensioning, and that results in a very hard support for my ischials. Not sure if the saddle top will last with that setup. I tried lacing one to narrow it, but the lace tension rotated the leather so that my body became exposed to the cutout edges - ouch!

Honestly I don't recall if the B-17 sideskirts are comfortable for me, since Mrs. Road Fan took over my B-17 from me.

I think replacing the solid steel of an S-A with lightweight stuff could save a pound, leaving us to devise a strategy to reduce the weight of the leather top. I would not want to thin it due to durability concerns, but perhaps some high-tensile strength fabric can be engineered to have similar elasticity to the leather of an S-A top or a Brooks, or (like a Lepper) have leather inserts added at strategic locations on the tensioned saddle top.

So this is kind of an anecdotal description of what I'd be interested in.

Road Fan

To me the desire to sit on the cantle is just a symptom of the saddle/bike/seatpost system not meeting the requirements of enabling the rider to balance himself based on proper rear end placement, such as described in Peter White's essay on fitting the bike to the rider.

FrenchFit 

Although I own a few, (and sold a few Pros on eBay), my issue with Brooks saddles is their nose. It's very prominent and involves too much interaction with the package in a rotated position. The hammock effect of the Selle An Atomica is even worse in this respect. So, riding in the drops can be a punishing experience, even rotated down in a hoods position is a close call. The old racing saddles I use sort of roll off at the nose, and were shorter = more room for the package when rotated forward. Otherwise, the setback on the Pro is ridiculous, and the B17 is not that much better.


My break-in on black Brooks saddles has been fairly fast, but not so with a honey B17. It tooks years for that saddle to feel right; what's true for one isn't true for all.

photogravity

I, like you, find that because of the protrusion of the nose on a Brooks saddle, I need to adjust my set for better reception. Since I don't ride the drops a lot, it's not a huge deal for me, but I am ever mindful of the potential of getting bad reception and try to remember, before a ride where there is potential for strenuous climbing or fast coastdowns which will put me in the drops, to make an appropriate adjustment of the set beforehand.

Saddle Up

Hey folks, I thought I would bring to everyone's attention the seat posts I use with my Brooks saddles since setback seems to be an issue. Enough setback is definately a problem because of the short rails on the saddles, in the old days of slack seat tubes it didn't matter as much. Truvativ to the rescue, they make a couple of seat posts in the Stylo line that offer 25mm of set back, perfect. Both are cheaper than the Paul Components option.

Brooks B-17 Flyer on a Stylo T-20 on a Surly Troll


Brooks B-17 Flyer by SaddleUpBike, on Flickr

I use a Stylo T-30 on the LHT, marginally lighter.

Saddle Up

It's been done, it's called the Brooks B-17 Narrow Imperial. If you are trying to improve on currently available saddles the Imperial is your target. It doesn't get better than that IMO. I work in a LBS that sells Specialized saddles and when I look at saddles like the Toupe, Romin, Avatar etc., I see a plastic version of the Brooks Imperial.

trescojones

favorite leather saddle of all time was Ideale 88 or 90 the shape of the steel back and nose width was perfect. Ideale 43 not so. I like the brooks b66 once its broken before that its too wide. Brooks leather can be a bit too tough, selle a bit too floppy for a drops position. Always wanted to check out leppers they have some interesting designs. I recondition saddles too, have used a variety of leather

onbike 1939

There is an option which does give you the set-back you need and has thicker leather which is water-proofed.

https://www.spacycles.co.uk/products....=m2b0s204p2667

Wanderer

One thing to consider, while trying to figure out how to make the rails longer, would be to make the seat(rear) portion a little longer. The advantage of that, would be to enable different sit positions, body wise, while still having the proper platform to be planted on. I've also wondered if it would be advantageous to lace the sides to the rails, rather than each other.

Hangtownmatt

Isn't the Brooks B-17 Narrow Imperial a suspended saddle? By suspended I mean stretched leather.

Matt

ThermionicScott 

FWIW (which may not be much), I need to amend this a little. I rode a 200k on a nearly-virgin Brooks B5N yesterday and loved it. The flatter top section, tough leather, and narrower width meant that nothing is sore but my sitbone area, and there was very little pressure in between them. From my reading, the B5N was very close to the shape of a B17N -- mine is 150mm across at the widest part. If this describes the current B17N, it might be the perfect saddle for me, and I'd consider replacing my B17's and Pro with one if it weren't for the cost.

Saddle Up

I took suspended to mean some sort of spring system.

rhm

So, I recently tried a little something new. What I want to make is a saddle with the heavy suspended leather construction of an old Brooks (or Ideale or whatever) but shaped more like a modern one. To do this right, I am going to need a custom cantle plate and frame; and I'm working on this, but have nothing yet. In the mean time I have collected some old saddles that are too far gone to use, and put new leather on those, usually in the same shape as the original, more or less.

But on this one I wanted to try a prostate-friendly groove. So instead of cutting a hole in it, like a Brooks Imperial, I put an actual groove down the center:



Here it is installed on my old Fuji Finest.



You don't have to tell me it looks great -- no one else has, so far! And I'm not giving it a rave review either. I've only ridden it a few times, less than a hundred miles. The shape isn't quite right; too wide in the center.

ThermionicScott 

Looks promising, if Buick-y. Maybe using a narrower rear end would bring the center section in enough?