The point of the question wasn't about the usefulness of the rail ticket, more about whether the ride would still be validated if the proof of passage could also be taken as evidence that no part of the route was actually cycled.
It's easy to cheat (you might need a buddy with a car). The rules (as they stand) don't really do anything to prevent cheating.
If you were really concerned, you could have people use a tracking device that guaranteed they "rode" the entire course at a "bicycle speed". But even that wouldn't preclude cheating.
That seems to be done quite frequently in the UK, where there are trains everywhere. Or posting a postcard, or getting receipts with date and time on them from the grocery store, etc. And yes the evidence would be considered acceptable.
Actually I like the idea of doing a ride from train station to train station in Europe. :)
(and ignore njkayaker, he appears to be going through a cranky phase)
It's easy to cheat. The rules don't really prevent that.
You haven't provided any evidence that randonneursare generally concerned with "cheaters".
I think it's more likely that randonneurs are more "caught up" with tradition and adherence to a few simple rules than being worried about "cheating".
does anyone doubt that you can cheat at randonneuring if you want to? I think we could just drop the subject of cheating and the world would be a better place
The "theme" stuff should come after the route and experience.
Many riders don't really want to stop very long, which, if you want to be courteous to them, then stops should be useful too (I doubt that train stations would generally be useful).
People say that about PBP, but I don't think that's true for very many people any more. Just consider fleches, for example.
I considered putting a 1/8 mile drag strip as a control on my permanent and making people get time slips for their run
When I ride I validate with GPS wherever possible, as it's less of a faff than stopping to collect receipts for trivial purchases regardless of whether I actually wanted to stop or not. On a calendar event that doesn't work but then there are proper controls with stamps and things which makes it easier. As you say you can fake a GPS track log without too much effort. When I submitted the first DIY brevet I ever rode the validator read my email with my proposed route and thought it was my actual track log.
I noticed :)Quote:
(and ignore njkayaker, he appears to be going through a cranky phase)
If someone is planning their own route (what we in the UK would call a DIY) then as long as the distance between controls is within limits they can set the controls wherever they want. So if they have a passion for railways they could make every single control a railway station.
How useful a train station is depends on the station. Some are little more than platforms with grumpy attendants and overpriced vending machines that don't work. Others practically have shopping centres built in. I did a brevet last year where one of the control points was a vintage railway with a rather nice cafe.
It doesn't seem that helpful/useful to nitpick a theoretical construct - if you want to discuss relative merits go ahead, if you want to ignore it go ahead, but nitpicking it is no more helpful/useful than someone turning up and posting that they think it's silly to ride 400km when you could just take the car.Quote:
It doesn't seem that helpful/useful to promote cute/gimicky ideas.
But yes, another answer for unterhausen and the question about creating permanent routes ... look at what other countries do. Audax UK riders have been riding permanents for years ... see what they do and what makes a good permanent route there.
A lot of these issues are great ones to consider. Not all the issues, of course.
So, an informational control is less useful on an out-n-back unless its the far end control? I had an idea of using highway historical markers for informational controls, but may not use them for out-n-back rides.
Another issue I'm wondering about - people talk about keeping the distances close to the 100,200,300 k numbers or whatever, but the surfeit of roads where i live make my proposed routes all a bit over, if i want to include some key features into the rides.... 214k, 112k, those types of distances. is 5-10 percent off the even hundred k mark acceptable for permanent routes?
The theme idea is one i've already been considering.
I forget where I read the idea of having a simple out-and-back route that passed information controls in both directions but avoided the cheating issue by having a manned control at the far end that gave out the questions to answer on the return leg. Obviously that works for calendar events although I guess in theory you could put something together to make it work on a permanent, as long as you had a range of questions and friendly establishments at either end to verify cards and hand out the questions.
Some of his recent posts remind me of me when I'm feeling grumpy and irritated at just about everything. Usually I try not to post at all when I'm in that mindset.Quote:
Enigmatic, and so 'logically' based, that for me months ago I came to a conclusion the njkayaker posts are bit-generated.
Audax UK's info about DIY rides ... http://www.aukweb.net/diy/
Note that to plan one of these rides you plan it for the shortest possible distance between checkpoints, but you can ride a longer distance or whatever route you want ...
"REMEMBER! You don’t actually have to ride the shortest distance between your checkpoints. You can choose any route you like, as long as you pass through the checkpoints. However, the shortest distance must be used when declaring the distance of the ride."
I suspect the Handbook might provide more info, but it's too big for me to download right now.
And this is Audax Australia's document on Permanent Rules ...
And this is BC_Randonneurs info on Permanents ...
It's good to refer to what various organisations do ... each does something slightly different so you can get ideas about what works etc. :)
Bek- many of our perms are odd distances (214k, 250k, etc.) That's not a route killer, just something that can make the route slightly less attractive. If you're trying to keep an R12 going, then a 199k doesn't cut it, and a 298k is a lot of extra riding.
Here in Texas, train stations (Amtrak style), or DART style, are associated with large urban areas, which is exactly the places we try to avoid on bike rides, so that's a non-issue.
I decided that the drag strip idea isn't going to fly, costs $35 to make a solo run
I got the idea on Taste of Carolina last year, there is an 1/8 mile strip right off the route. It would be fun
Nobody ever said you had to buy a train ticket as proof but if the last shop has closed and you need proof of passage you could just buy a cheap ticket from a machine and buy some food later on. It beats not getting any proof of passage. If there were a supermarket nearby and you felt the urge to do your weekly shopping and request home delivery presumably the receipt spanning several feet would count as proof of passage.
You made your thoughts on that one quite clear but still didn't address the implications of each control point covering an area that included a station, and a rider submitting a train ticket to the next control point as their proof of passage. You seem to be concerned that you dislike the idea that someone might choose to stop at a station for their proof of passage to the extent you're assuming the ride in question required participants to waste money on train tickets.Quote:
No, the "train station" idea just isn't a very good one.
This thread has me thinking about joining RUSA after all.
I'm not a member because, ironically, I try to be car-free. To ride an organized brevet I have to get to the start point, which is no big deal if it's ten (Princeton NJ) or fifteen miles (Cranbury NJ), but I'm probably not going to be up for more than that. I'm willing to rent a car occasionally (which I did to get to Ephrata to ride the Spring Forward 200k with the PA Randonneurs) but I'm not going to do this often enough to justify RUSA membership.
So... now you've got me thinking, I could work out some 200k rides that start from somewhere near my house, and ride them (with or without friends) as permanents?