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  1. #51
    Randomhead
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    you definitely can make your own permanents that start near your house, in fact that's the way most of them work. You might want to look at the existing NJ routes to see if any work for you. There are a number of people that ride the Eastern PA brevets from New Jersey. Saturday's rides start in Milford NJ, which I guess is too far to ride. There are a couple of people that live in NY that ride, they have been known to ride down the day before and ride back the day after. Sometimes they just ride to the nearest NJ train station

  2. #52
    Senior Member skiffrun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    A lot of these issues are great ones to consider. Not all the issues, of course.

    So, an informational control is less useful on an out-n-back unless its the far end control? I had an idea of using highway historical markers for informational controls, but may not use them for out-n-back rides.
    Not quite right. An Info Control will work as an intermediate control on the outbound leg -- that is what Crista suggested my friend Dean do on his "Tar Heel 200", and that is also what he does on his "Get 'er Dunn" perm-pop. In each case, he uses a nearby c'store for the control on the return.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Another issue I'm wondering about - people talk about keeping the distances close to the 100,200,300 k numbers or whatever, but the surfeit of roads where i live make my proposed routes all a bit over, if i want to include some key features into the rides.... 214k, 112k, those types of distances. is 5-10 percent off the even hundred k mark acceptable for permanent routes?
    I was surprised that Stephen wrote that. Here in NC, most of the 10K-Hounds have appreciated "the change," i.e., the excess above 100 or 200. Last year, while 10K-Hounding, another NC-rando and I found that approx 140-kms was a great distance -- it didn't seem any more time or energy consuming than a 100-kms, but "the change" quickly added up. However, several of the Lone Stars (including Stephen) do so many rides that "the change" may well be immaterial to them.

    However, those doing the route for R-12 or P-12 credit only, and not so interested in total kms, may appreciate not riding any more than necessary to qualify on those.
    Enjoy the ride.

  3. #53
    Senior Member skiffrun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    ...

    "REMEMBER! You donít actually have to ride the shortest distance between your checkpoints. You can choose any route you like, as long as you pass through the checkpoints. However, the shortest distance must be used when declaring the distance of the ride."

    ...
    Remember, RUSA Permanents, including the "Free Routes," are prescribed courses. So are the brevets, btw.
    Enjoy the ride.

  4. #54
    Senior Member skiffrun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    I got the idea on Taste of Carolina last year, there is an 1/8 mile strip right off the route. It would be fun
    MUCH different, much flatter, route this year. Different start/finish location, too.
    Enjoy the ride.

  5. #55
    Senior Member skiffrun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhm View Post
    This thread has me thinking about joining RUSA after all.

    I'm not a member because, ironically, I try to be car-free. To ride an organized brevet I have to get to the start point, which is no big deal if it's ten (Princeton NJ) or fifteen miles (Cranbury NJ), but I'm probably not going to be up for more than that. I'm willing to rent a car occasionally (which I did to get to Ephrata to ride the Spring Forward 200k with the PA Randonneurs) but I'm not going to do this often enough to justify RUSA membership.

    So... now you've got me thinking, I could work out some 200k rides that start from somewhere near my house, and ride them (with or without friends) as permanents?
    There are probably already some perm routes close to where you live. I recall there is one named "Princeton-Belmar-Princeton" (or something similar).

    Map of Permanent start locations: click-here, then zoom in on the appropriate area.
    (The map shows the approximate location of the starts; for exact details, contact the "route-owner".)

    If you need/want to access that map in the future, go the RUSA website, Permanent page, then click on "Permanents search".
    Enjoy the ride.

  6. #56
    Reeks of aged cotton duck Hydrated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    I got the idea on Taste of Carolina last year, there is an 1/8 mile strip right off the route. It would be fun
    It would be less boring if you could find a 1/4 mile strip. That way you'd only have to make 248 runs to get to 200K... that's if you ride the bike back to the start after each run.

    Doing it on an 1/8 mile strip would take 496 runs. That's just getting silly.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Steamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hydrated View Post
    It would be less boring if you could find a 1/4 mile strip. That way you'd only have to make 248 runs to get to 200K... that's if you ride the bike back to the start after each run.

    Doing it on an 1/8 mile strip would take 496 runs. That's just getting silly.
    Not sure if serious.

    Unter is talking about doing it once.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hydrated View Post
    It would be less boring if you could find a 1/4 mile strip. That way you'd only have to make 248 runs to get to 200K... that's if you ride the bike back to the start after each run.
    ya, and it would cost almost $9000 at my local 1/4 mile strip. I was talking about using the time slip from a single run as proof you were there.

  9. #59
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiffrun View Post
    Remember, RUSA Permanents, including the "Free Routes," are prescribed courses. So are the brevets, btw.
    You know that wasn't my comment, right? It was a quote from the Audax UK website.


    Just pointing out that different organisations do different things, and since we're all from different countries and ride with different organisations, the answer to a question about permanent routes may be different.

  10. #60
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by contango View Post
    That would depend on the area.
    Yes, even here in Australia there are a lot of smaller towns with active or inactive train stations. The town Rowan and I live in has an inactive one. A town which Rowan and I use as the start/finish point for a lot of our centuries has an active one. And in another nearby town, which runs a winter randonnee, participants start at the train station. All are situated in locations with very little traffic.

    Which actually brings to mind another idea. Here in Victoria, there are heaps of rail trails, and there are some randonnee routes which are run at least partially on those rail trails. There's one really nice rail trail (paved/sealed) a little north of us which is long enough to do a decent randonnee, and it uses inactive train stations as toilet/water/picnic stops.

    There's also another rail trail that goes through our town (and starts/finishes at the inactive train station mentioned above), which could be used for randonnees up to 200K, but unfortunately it's gravel, so it could only be used for off-road randonnees.



    Quote Originally Posted by contango View Post
    but still didn't address the implications of each control point covering an area that included a station, and a rider submitting a train ticket to the next control point as their proof of passage.
    He doesn't know what the implications might be ... maybe the idea of doing creative permanents is so foreign to him that all he can do is criticise.

    However, I'd encourage you to ask one of the "Powers-that-Be" in Audax UK whether a ticket from a train station, with a time stamp, could be used as proof of passage ... and report back here. I'm curious now ... interested to hear what they might say.

  11. #61
    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    Yes, even here in Australia there are a lot of smaller towns with active or inactive train stations. The town Rowan and I live in has an inactive one. A town which Rowan and I use as the start/finish point for a lot of our centuries has an active one. And in another nearby town, which runs a winter randonnee, participants start at the train station. All are situated in locations with very little traffic.

    Which actually brings to mind another idea. Here in Victoria, there are heaps of rail trails, and there are some randonnee routes which are run at least partially on those rail trails. There's one really nice rail trail (paved/sealed) a little north of us which is long enough to do a decent randonnee, and it uses inactive train stations as toilet/water/picnic stops.

    There's also another rail trail that goes through our town (and starts/finishes at the inactive train station mentioned above), which could be used for randonnees up to 200K, but unfortunately it's gravel, so it could only be used for off-road randonnees.
    Here in the UK we have a concept called an Extended Calendar Event (ECE for short, unsurprisingly) where the idea is equally unsurprising in that you extend a calendar event by riding to and/or from the event, adding your own controls. The minimum distance of the combined ride is 200km (based on the shortest distance between controls rather than the actual distance ridden) and you get cut some slack on the minimum speed as your overall minimum is 14.3kph regardless of the minimum specified by the calendar event.

    It seems quite a few folks in the UK travel to and from brevets by train, so rides that start near stations make it easier. Controls near stations are also handy in case people do need to bail out.

    He doesn't know what the implications might be ... maybe the idea of doing creative permanents is so foreign to him that all he can do is criticise.

    However, I'd encourage you to ask one of the "Powers-that-Be" in Audax UK whether a ticket from a train station, with a time stamp, could be used as proof of passage ... and report back here. I'm curious now ... interested to hear what they might say.
    As far as I can tell anything that shows passage through an area with a timestamp is considered acceptable. Usually I'd expect a receipt to be for the kind of items a long distance cyclist might be expected to buy along the route but things like ATM receipts are also used. Some controls I've seen listed specify something like "grab an ATM receipt or a bun from the Co-Op" while others just say "get a receipt from the High Street".

    Although a succession of proof-of-passages consisting of a timestamped train ticket to the next control might raise some eyebrows it's hard to see anyone who was planning on cheating being so brazen about it. I suppose if someone is so desperate to fake completing a brevet that they'll sit for a couple of hours at each station before buying a ticket to the next station and repeating that for an entire day has bigger issues than whether they get awarded a brevet they never actually completed.

    I believe that when it comes to figuring out who accumulated the most points each year the powers that be will only consider points from permanents up to the total number of points earned from calendar events, so even if someone were a habitual cheat at permanents they'd have to cheat at a similar number of calendar events to cover themselves. I get the impression calendar events aren't totally safe from cheating but it would seem to be much harder to cheat, what with having other riders all around the course who might notice the same person unloading the same bike from the same car only to cycle half a mile to the control and load the bike back on the car.
    "For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"

  12. #62
    Senior Member skiffrun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    You know that wasn't my comment, right? It was a quote from the Audax UK website.

    Just pointing out that different organisations do different things, and since we're all from different countries and ride with different organisations, the answer to a question about permanent routes may be different.
    Regardless of where you copied it from, YOU posted it; that makes it YOUR comment.

    You posted information from 3 national / provincial entities, highlighting something that is not the case in the US and included an almost hidden caveat at the end that different entities handle things differently. It is "almost hidden" because the bolded "remember" completely dominates that post.

    One of the different countries is the US and some of the newbie RUSA members, or prospective members, appear confused already. Clarification to those potential RUSA newbies that, in the US, all Permanents and Brevets are prescribed routes is a good idea. (Even some veteran RUSA members sometimes forget that the courses here are prescribed routes.)
    Enjoy the ride.

  13. #63
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiffrun View Post
    Regardless of where you copied it from, YOU posted it; that makes it YOUR comment.

    You posted information from 3 national / provincial entities, highlighting something that is not the case in the US and included an almost hidden caveat at the end that different entities handle things differently. It is "almost hidden" because the bolded "remember" completely dominates that post.

    Copied and posted directly from the Audax UK website, complete with bolding ... obviously. Or it is obvious when you look at the Audax UK website.


    Quote Originally Posted by skiffrun View Post
    One of the different countries is the US and some of the newbie RUSA members, or prospective members, appear confused already. Clarification to those potential RUSA newbies that, in the US, all Permanents and Brevets are prescribed routes is a good idea. (Even some veteran RUSA members sometimes forget that the courses here are prescribed routes.)
    Well, post a link then for your particular rules for creating permanents.

    Personally I prefer the Audax UK method ... plan the route around the shortest possible route, and then allow the participants to ride wherever they like. I heard about that method of doing permanents back in 2002, and I thought it sounded like great fun ... sort of like Alleycat races.

  14. #64
    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiffrun View Post
    Regardless of where you copied it from, YOU posted it; that makes it YOUR comment.

    You posted information from 3 national / provincial entities, highlighting something that is not the case in the US and included an almost hidden caveat at the end that different entities handle things differently. It is "almost hidden" because the bolded "remember" completely dominates that post.
    Huh? I read it and it was immediately clear to me that it was quoted from the Audax UK rules.

    Perhaps I should have "replied with quote" in case someone accuses me of having a moan at Machka as well.

    One of the different countries is the US and some of the newbie RUSA members, or prospective members, appear confused already. Clarification to those potential RUSA newbies that, in the US, all Permanents and Brevets are prescribed routes is a good idea. (Even some veteran RUSA members sometimes forget that the courses here are prescribed routes.)
    One question I always had about being expected to follow the exact route - what happens if you do take a very slightly different route, and how does anyone know? I've done a couple of brevets where I missed a turn and instead of left-right-right-left I effective did right-left-left-right - the end result was that my route went almost exactly parallel to the intended route for maybe half a mile or less before joining up again. If that had been a prescribed route event would I have been warned about it, sanctioned, disqualified, or what?
    "For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"

  15. #65
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by contango View Post
    One question I always had about being expected to follow the exact route - what happens if you do take a very slightly different route, and how does anyone know? I've done a couple of brevets where I missed a turn and instead of left-right-right-left I effective did right-left-left-right - the end result was that my route went almost exactly parallel to the intended route for maybe half a mile or less before joining up again. If that had been a prescribed route event would I have been warned about it, sanctioned, disqualified, or what?
    In some parts of the world, there is a threat of the "Secret Control" hanging over everyone's head. You're told that on any event (randonnees, permanents, etc.) there could be a secret control, and if you go off course at all, and miss the secret control, you'll be disqualified. That threat encourages everyone to stick to the designated route.


    One of the things I liked about designing my own routes was that I could opt to ride a parallel road if it was a better choice (of the same or greater distance) because I knew there'd be no secret control lurking out there.

    On my 200K, for example, there were at least three roads you could have ridden back into the Start/Finish area. One was a main highway with a wide shoulder ... a decent choice, and the choice that was on the cue sheet because it was the shortest choice. One was a quiet country road ... also a decent choice, but a little longer and a bit more scenic because of the twists and turns. And one started on the main highway, but about halfway along riders could turn off onto another quiet country road ... another decent choice, but again, a little longer and a bit more scenic. All of them worked, and the other riders and I rode different ones at different times.

    For example, one year there was some fairly significant construction on the main highway. Riders could pick their way through, but it was rough going. I gave them the choice of whether they wanted to tackle the construction on the main highway, or use one of the side roads. Didn't matter to me.

  16. #66
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    In some parts of the world, there is a threat of the "Secret Control" hanging over everyone's head. You're told that on any event (randonnees, permanents, etc.) there could be a secret control, and if you go off course at all, and miss the secret control, you'll be disqualified. That threat encourages everyone to stick to the designated route.
    And, perhaps, encouraging riding along the designated route is a good reason to add informational (or formal timestamp) controls on permanents to the upper accepted limits rather than the minimums. I like the idea of historical themed informational controls to color the theme of a route. Sure, in this day and age people can maybe google street view the control,

    but if you're cheating on a permanent, it stands to reason the only rider you're cheating is yourself. Obviously, deception of the rusa awards system is bad dope.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-18-13 at 08:12 AM.
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  17. #67
    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    And, perhaps, encouraging riding along the designated route is a good reason to add informational (or formal timestamp) controls on permanents to the upper accepted limits rather than the minimums. I like the idea of historical themed informational controls to color the theme of a route. Sure, in this day and age people can maybe google street view the control,

    but if you're cheating on a permanent, it stands to reason the only rider you're cheating is yourself. Obviously, deception of the rusa awards system is bad dope.
    Is there a reason you couldn't direct people past the historical monument and then tell them to get an ATM receipt from the cash machine half a mile away or buy something from the nearby store and get a receipt?
    "For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"

  18. #68
    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    In some parts of the world, there is a threat of the "Secret Control" hanging over everyone's head. You're told that on any event (randonnees, permanents, etc.) there could be a secret control, and if you go off course at all, and miss the secret control, you'll be disqualified. That threat encourages everyone to stick to the designated route.
    I figure if there's a secret control and you take your own route you might miss the secret control but even then if you're talking about the kind of trivial diversion (maybe even if signs are ambiguous) it would seem awfully officious to disqualify someone because they took such a trivial wrong turn.

    One ride I did wasn't entirely clear which road I was supposed to take at one particular junction but on the map it was clear it made no difference at all. I was surprised on another ride I did because it looked like there were possible shortcuts that would take significant amounts of distance off the total, but when I asked the organiser about secret controls (being unsure if such a thing would be allowed if the route was only advisory) he said it was a populaire so didn't feel the need to enforce the route in too much detail. As it happened he then pointed out a bigger shortcut people could take if they wanted to claim the brevet without riding it.

    I must admit I rather like the idea of having known controls, a recommended route, and the freedom to ride whatever route takes your fancy on the day as long as you visit all the controls. If the distance credited is the shortest distance between controls then I struggle to understand why it matters if a rider chooses to take a longer route. Admittedly it theoretically opens up the possibility of someone taking short cuts across fields on a mountain bike but then it would probably be easier just to do the full distance on the road.
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    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    i think i'd rather people learn a little local history than buy a candy bar.

    Where i'm thinking of setting routes, the atms aren't even in that strong supply, might not BE enough open commercial operations adequately spaced on some of the routes i'm considering. An additional consideration for information controls versus commerce/timestamp controls.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    i think i'd rather people learn a little local history than buy a candy bar.

    Where i'm thinking of setting routes, the atms aren't even in that strong supply, might not BE enough open commercial operations adequately spaced on some of the routes i'm considering. An additional consideration for information controls versus commerce/timestamp controls.
    If info controls are allowed in your area for perms, it makes a lot of sense. For what it's worth I'd rather learn a bit of history than buy a candy bar (I take candy bars with me), but learning a bit of history doesn't do anything to prove when I learned it.
    "For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    An additional consideration for information controls versus commerce/timestamp controls.
    I don't see why you have to worry about resupply on a route as long as people understand it's an issue. It's nice to note resupply opportunities on the cue sheet. I would be happy with resupply options every 50 miles or so, I get annoyed when I am required to stop at a convenience store every 20 miles.

    OTOH, I have done rides where I was happy to stop every 20 miles, the first hot ride of the year can be an issue. On those rides I wonder why I don't have a hydration pack.

    With info controles, you have to be careful to cue them well enough that people can find them. There was one on a recent ride where I wonder how easy to spot it would be for a solo rider.

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    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    I don't see why you have to worry about resupply on a route as long as people understand it's an issue. It's nice to note resupply opportunities on the cue sheet. I would be happy with resupply options every 50 miles or so, I get annoyed when I am required to stop at a convenience store every 20 miles.

    OTOH, I have done rides where I was happy to stop every 20 miles, the first hot ride of the year can be an issue. On those rides I wonder why I don't have a hydration pack.

    With info controles, you have to be careful to cue them well enough that people can find them. There was one on a recent ride where I wonder how easy to spot it would be for a solo rider.
    I always find it handy when an info control is at a junction so you get a double "turn right at T, stop for info control" so there's less chance of hammering past it or having to spend much time looking for exactly where it is.
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    Reeks of aged cotton duck Hydrated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
    Not sure if serious.

    Unter is talking about doing it once.
    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    ya, and it would cost almost $9000 at my local 1/4 mile strip. I was talking about using the time slip from a single run as proof you were there.
    Hahahahahaha...

    I was just kidding, guys... next time I'll put a smiley face at the end.
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    if it cost $9000 to do a permanent, then it would be really exclusive. Can you imagine the brevet card?

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    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    I don't see why you have to worry about resupply on a route as long as people understand it's an issue. It's nice to note resupply opportunities on the cue sheet. I would be happy with resupply options every 50 miles or so, I get annoyed when I am required to stop at a convenience store every 20 miles.

    OTOH, I have done rides where I was happy to stop every 20 miles, the first hot ride of the year can be an issue. On those rides I wonder why I don't have a hydration pack.

    With info controles, you have to be careful to cue them well enough that people can find them. There was one on a recent ride where I wonder how easy to spot it would be for a solo rider.
    I'm absolutely unconcerned about riders' resupply. these rides are not that big a deal 100 and 200k rides are just day rides. What i am inclined to shoot for are more informational controls versus receipts, except perhaps at start/finish and maybe the end of an out and back, stuffing a couple of informational controls in the mix. There's not a lot of stores up here. And a lot of great historical markers, etc. that could form the basis for several themed permanents.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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